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Who fits stairs?

  • 20-05-2011 11:20am
    #1
    sollar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭


    Hi

    Is fitting a staircase/spindles/handrail etc in a new build a specialist job carried out by the stair companies or could a carpenter or even a handyman fit them?

    Are they delivered assembled?

    Thanks


Comments

  • #2
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Most definitely not a job for a handyman.
    They are usually built by specialist companies and are not usually delivered assembled. Handrail, balusters/spindles and newell posts are generally fitted after the staircase has been secured in its final position. The manufacturers often fit them and will charge for this of course, but they can be made by a joinery firm/staircase manufacturer and then fitted by a carpenter too.


  • #3
    sollar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭sollar


    Would it be a full days work for a couple of men?


  • #4
    Paul.C
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭Paul.C


    Theres a day in it alright. You would only need a few men to fit the staircase into position and after that its really just the chippy that throws on the newel posts, hand/baserail and spindles.


  • #5
    sollar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭sollar


    Paul.C wrote: »
    Theres a day in it alright. You would only need a few men to fit the staircase into position and after that its really just the chippy that throws on the newel posts, hand/baserail and spindles.

    Would it be common for chippies to do that or is it nearly always the stair/joiner company fitters that do it.


  • #6
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    sollar wrote: »
    Would it be common for chippies to do that or is it nearly always the stair/joiner company fitters that do it.

    Usually the stair manufacturer, but there can be a cost/time benefit in getting a chippy to do it,


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  • #7
    Paul.C
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭Paul.C


    Any time I have fit them 9 times out of 10 the stairs has come from a manufacturing company. Some times depending on budget, type, species, and time available we would make them up ourselves.
    If the chippy hasnt made them before then I personally wouldnt let him learn with my money so IMO the safest bet is have a manufacturers make them up and a chippy fit them. Or just get the chippy to measure up and order them from a manufacturers for you.
    This way your ensured a good set of threads and a good fit at a decent price.

    Again it all depends on the chaps making them up and the lad fitting.


  • #8
    sollar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭sollar


    Paul.C wrote: »
    Any time I have fit them 9 times out of 10 the stairs has come from a manufacturing company. Some times depending on budget, type, species, and time available we would make them up ourselves.
    If the chippy hasnt made them before then I personally wouldnt let him learn with my money so IMO the safest bet is have a manufacturers make them up and a chippy fit them. Or just get the chippy to measure up and order them from a manufacturers for you.
    This way your ensured a good set of threads and a good fit at a decent price.

    Again it all depends on the chaps making them up and the lad fitting.

    Thanks,

    The reason i ask is because a local company have given me a good price for a set of stairs but they charge seperately for fitting them, the fitting cost is quite expensive. So i was thinking on getting the company to make them up and pricing a carpenter to fit them instead.

    I was wondering then if this is a fairly common way to go about it, i.e would most carpenters be well used to fitting them?


  • #9
    Paul.C
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭Paul.C


    A carpenters trade is Carpentry and Joinery.

    A carpenter should fit them as his bread and butter.
    A joiner makes them up as his.

    The difference is a carpenter may have never worked in joinery before and visa versa.

    Its this reason I wouldnt employ Just anybody for the job as a carpenter may give it a go, but the outcome may not be to the desired effect;)

    If you get a chippy to make them just ensure he has some sort of joinery experience.


  • #10
    sollar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭sollar


    Paul.C wrote: »
    If you get a chippy to make them just ensure he has some sort of joinery experience.

    Thanks paul, yeah i am definitely getting the company to make them. Its just the fitting of them i'm looking for the carpenter to do.


  • #11
    Paul.C
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭Paul.C


    if you dont mind me asking what was the quote for build and quote for fit?


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  • #12
    sollar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭sollar


    Paul.C wrote: »
    if you dont mind me asking what was the quote for build and quote for fit?

    build 2750 fit 525


  • #13
    Paul.C
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭Paul.C


    :eek:what!!

    The fit is cheap if its just fit to landing etc and then install bannisters and spindles.

    As for the stairs, what species are they made from? I pressume thats not bog standard red deal or mdf


  • #14
    sollar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭sollar


    Paul.C wrote: »
    :eek:what!!

    The fit is cheap if its just fit to landing etc and then install bannisters and spindles.

    As for the stairs, what species are they made from? I pressume thats not bog standard red deal or mdf

    Thats all deal, to be painted


  • #15
    Paul.C
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭Paul.C


    The last stairs I ordered was standard enough straight run, closed thread, 16 steps, all red deal with 4 newel posts attached. All I had to do was cut handrail, baserail, spindles and fit. I paid €1200 for the lot with spindles rails etc included.

    Is there any curve or turn etc. in the thread. Also I wouldnt paint them but thats just me.


  • #16
    Paul.C
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭Paul.C


    During the good days standard price to fit bannisters, newels and stairs was €700 including materials. This was when the stairs was not being replaced


  • #17
    sollar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭sollar


    Paul.C wrote: »
    The last stairs I ordered was standard enough straight run, closed thread, 16 steps, all red deal with 4 newel posts attached. All I had to do was cut handrail, baserail, spindles and fit. I paid €1200 for the lot with spindles rails etc included.

    Thats a good price. I'll need to price a few more places by the looks of it.


  • #18
    Paul.C
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭Paul.C


    Ye definitely, That price is shocking for the work involved. Id set a budget for the lot at €2000 supply and fit everything. And that should be everybody involved happy. If you look around there should be somebody around more than happy to take it on for you.


  • #19
    sollar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭sollar


    Does the main part of the stairs - i.e steps & stringer come on one piece. And then its a matter of the fitter adding the newels, spindles hand rail etc?


  • #20
    Paul.C
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭Paul.C


    Usually the strings and threads(steps) come together and the fitter does the rest. ie. installs the newels and bannisters.

    When I order them in I usually order them with newels connected so all I have to do is fit handrail. Its handier this way but not always possible if the space is tight


  • #21
    Paul.C
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭Paul.C


    Dont forget that price I got them for was handrail each side with newels attached, 2 lenghts of handrail, 2 lenghts, of base rail and about 50 spindles. All red deal. If you were going to paint it you may consider MDF threads with red deal strings. Thats if you choose to carpet or floor over it. Mdf is again cheaper and doesnt really shrink or crack. It does however lose its integrity and expand when moisture gets in. Just a thought :)


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  • #22
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    sollar wrote: »
    build 2750 fit 525

    I've looked back over this thread and for the life of me, I can't see any details about the type of staircase, apart from the fact that it's (red?) deal which is going to be painted. could be my eyesight, though:(
    The way the staircase is constructed massively determines its cost: viz. Is it going to be closed string or cut string? Open or close tread? How many steps? Straight run or with winders? Kite winders or landings? Turned or square balusters?
    If it's a standard cut string straight flight of about 12 - 16 steps with closed risers, off-the-shelf newell posts, handrails and spindles - then that price is about right, maybe even fairly good.
    If it's a closed string staircase with a landing or a kite winder, then the price is excellent.
    I doubt it's an open riser staircase but if it is, then the price is too high.

    As to fitting-it should take two men, who know what they are doing, no longer than half a day and should be priced accordingly.


  • #23
    Paul.C
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭Paul.C


    I asked and the impression that I got was a standard straight run with nothing really off standard. I agree you could pay as little as €800 for a very very basic set supply and fit or you could pay €20,000 if you had a money backed imagination.
    slowburner wrote: »
    As to fitting-it should take two men, who know what they are doing, no longer than half a day and should be priced accordingly.

    3 men if its 2nd to 3rd floor, as if its above another stairs it can sometimes be tricky/dangerous with just 2.

    The €1200 I paid for was for free-standing straight run, all Red Deal, 16 steps, closed string, closed riser, turned spindles, turned newels, handrail and baserail.

    The form it came to me was- thread fully constructed with 4 newel posts already attached. (loose)3 handrails, 3 baserails, 75 spindles and 2 half newels.

    I think I said less earlier on but I forgot the two returns.redface.gif

    Also I didn't have to take a single measurement bar the rise and run. I called him up and told him what I needed and he went out and took his measurements. The first time we met on this job was when he was pulled up outside ready to unload.

    Landings, riser type, string type don't "massively" increase the price that much.

    Wood species/winders/curves and overall design is the main factor when pricing these IMO.

    That's before extras such as designer strings, curtail bullnose steps, monkeys tails, swans-necks, wreaths, ramps, Scotia moulding, continuous handrails etc.

    And that's before things get imaginative.

    To sum up, if he is getting a standard enough thread then I think the quote he received is scandalous. I'm not in the game of undermining other tradesmen's pricing habits, but the variation here is massive.


  • #24
    sollar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭sollar


    Its a very basic set with straight stringer up the side and no complicated bits or bobs. Fairly standard stairs on a two story house.


  • #25
    Paul.C
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭Paul.C


    Thanks for clearing that up mate. Just wondering where are you based? Is it Donegal? If so then there are quite a few joinery shops up there. I think if you are best approaching them with a clear budget of lets say €2000 for arguments sake and requesting full installation included in this. Its not a big ask as Ive said before I would consider it fairly standard.

    The thing to remember is a lot of tradesmen do pick numbers out of the clouds and price for what they think they can get away with. Not all do this but some do. So ensure you approach with this budget outlined and make sure you mention it before they quote you. The other side is some wont budge on price that much at all even if its a fair one. So let them no you wont be budging on yours and the job will go to the joiner that agrees the terms.

    Trust me you will get it for that price, just don't limit your options to the chap you no or the lad down the road. Shop around


  • #26
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    This might be of interest.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71382493


  • #27
    Paul.C
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭Paul.C


    slowburner wrote: »
    If it's a standard cut string straight flight of about 12 - 16 steps with closed risers, off-the-shelf newell posts, handrails and spindles - then that price is about right, maybe even fairly good.

    What? that's madness. Please run through the material costs, labour and time for me. All the joiner is doing is routing out 2 stringers, Cutting, bullnosing and trenching 16 steps, cutting 16 risers, Wedging and glueing the lot together, fixing blocks under thread, adding bannisters etc.

    At what stage here does it warrant such a high price?

    Materials, labour, profit. The Profit must be fairly high and not a joiner in the world would get that of me. Labour is profit and people who keep adding random profit to these jobs wont last long.


  • #28
    galwayrush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    Paul.C wrote: »
    What? that's madness. Please run through the material costs, labour and time for me. All the joiner is doing is routing out 2 stringers, Cutting, bullnosing and trenching 16 steps, cutting 16 risers, Wedging and glueing the lot together, fixing blocks under thread, adding bannisters etc.

    At what stage here does it warrant such a high price?

    Materials, labour, profit. The Profit must be fairly high and not a joiner in the world would get that of me. Labour is profit and people who keep adding random profit to these jobs wont last long.

    Don't forget the Joinery will have rates , massive insurance costs and a lot of machinery to keep upgraged and maintained. I have a small joinery, am extremely busy and some weeks, i can't draw a full weeks wages when everything else is paid.


  • #29
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    + timber costs, + overheads.

    To be honest, I am really bad at all this pricing stuff - I have got my prices wrong far too many times and still do. By which I mean, I have underpriced jobs.
    I don't want to be involved in a debate over prices - I got in on this thread because the op asked a non €€€ question which I thought I could help with :)


  • #30
    Paul.C
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭Paul.C


    galwayrush wrote: »
    Don't forget the Joinery will have rates , massive insurance costs and a lot of machinery to keep upgraged and maintained. I have a small joinery, am extremely busy and some weeks, i can't draw a full weeks wages when everything else is paid.

    I fully understand this issue, but the lads I get them off are in the same situation and if they can do it for this price while paying through the nose for rent alone in Dublin then surely a lad in donegal's overheads are going to be substantially smaller.

    How long would it take you to mark out and assemble a stairs from plans.
    Also how much would you pay for materials for this particular job.(ballpark figure would do)


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  • #31
    Paul.C
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭Paul.C


    slowburner wrote: »
    + timber costs, + overheads.

    To be honest, I am really bad at all this pricing stuff - I have got my prices wrong far too many times and still do. By which I mean, I have underpriced jobs.
    I don't want to be involved in a debate over prices - I got in on this thread because the op asked a non €€€ question which I thought I could help with :)

    I apologise if iv come across argumentative, that is not my intention at all. I just dont understand where this cost has come from. I understand things are tough and sometimes I don't get my desired weekly wage either but passing those overheads to a client will soon put a man out of business.


  • #32
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Paul.C wrote: »
    I apologise if iv come across argumentative, that is not my intention at all. I just dont understand where this cost has come from. I understand things are tough and sometimes I don't get my desired weekly wage either but passing those overheads to a client will soon put a man out of business.

    No worries, my friend. Sure what's wrong with a bit of argument anyway? It's just that I forsee this thread developing into a pre and post celtic tiger pricing debate.


  • #33
    galwayrush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    Paul.C wrote: »
    I fully understand this issue, but the lads I get them off are in the same situation and if they can do it for this price while paying through the nose for rent alone in Dublin then surely a lad in donegal's overheads are going to be substantially smaller.

    How long would it take you to mark out and assemble a stairs from plans.
    Also how much would you pay for materials for this particular job.(ballpark figure would do)

    All Pine, straight flight, 2 of us would make 2 of them in a long day,we only turn the N Posts as it's cheaper to buy the spindles (pine)than make them. Same stairs in cut string, double the time with a little extra material.
    Material approx 600, price for stairs ( depending on railings, special features, bullnose steps etc) 900 to 1100 +VAT
    Cut string, approx 700 more expensive.

    Recently, we started offering spraying and fitting to generate enough work for ourselves.


  • #34
    sollar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭sollar


    Some very useful info here thanks everybody.


  • #35
    Paul.C
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭Paul.C


    slowburner wrote: »
    No worries, my friend. Sure what's wrong with a bit of argument anyway? It's just that I forsee this thread developing into a pre and post celtic tiger pricing debate.

    My thoughts also:)
    galwayrush wrote: »
    All Pine, straight flight, 2 of us would make 2 of them in a long day,we only turn the N Posts as it's cheaper to buy the spindles (pine)than make them. Same stairs in cut string, double the time with a little extra material.
    Material approx 600, price for stairs ( depending on railings, special features, bullnose steps etc) 900 to 1100 +VAT
    Cut string, approx 700 more expensive.

    Recently, we started offering spraying and fitting to generate enough work for ourselves.

    cheers, so the price your client pays would be 900-1100+VAT plus the cost of materials?


  • #36
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    If you have the time/inclination you should search for more threads by Galwayrush. You will see some awe inspiring work. It'll make you understand just how much work can go into staircases and surrounds.
    I think staircases rarely get the appreciation they deserve - perhaps it's because they're between places and you're always moving when you're on them. Unless you're at a party and then everyone sits on them.
    I've only ever built one staircase - it took six months :eek: but it was fairly complex and I made every single element from scratch - that's how the architect wanted it done.


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  • #37
    Paul.C
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭Paul.C


    I am well aware of galwayrushes work, he is clearly a top joiner and I agree that a stairs itself has the ability to have a major wow factor in a house if your willing to put some effort in. I'm not a joiner but I will be moving into that field in the near or distant future. I hate loading/unloading tools and would prefer to work in a workshop all the time bar fitting. Anyway thanks for the input lads I think I have dragged this thread off topic enough but the info given must have given the OP enough input for consideration as well as myself. :D:D

    All the best


  • #38
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Paul.C wrote: »
    I am well aware of galwayrushes work, he is clearly a top joiner and I agree that a stairs itself has the ability to have a major wow factor in a house if your willing to put some effort in. I'm not a joiner but I will be moving into that field in the near or distant future. I hate loading/unloading tools and would prefer to work in a workshop all the time bar fitting. Anyway thanks for the input lads I think I have dragged this thread off topic enough but the info given must have given the OP enough input for consideration as well as myself. :D:D

    All the best

    Still on topic, surely?


  • #39
    galwayrush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    Paul.C wrote: »
    My thoughts also:)



    cheers, so the price your client pays would be 900-1100+VAT plus the cost of materials?

    Including materials.


  • #40
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Paul.C wrote: »
    I am well aware of galwayrushes work, he is clearly a top joiner and I agree that a stairs itself has the ability to have a major wow factor in a house if your willing to put some effort in. I'm not a joiner but I will be moving into that field in the near or distant future. I hate loading/unloading tools and would prefer to work in a workshop all the time bar fitting. Anyway thanks for the input lads I think I have dragged this thread off topic enough but the info given must have given the OP enough input for consideration as well as myself. :D:D

    All the best

    I, for one, would love to know how the transition goes, if and when you put a workshop together. Good luck. :)


  • #41
    Paul.C
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭Paul.C


    slowburner wrote: »
    I, for one, would love to know how the transition goes, if and when you put a workshop together. Good luck. :)smile.gif

    cheers mate I think Im gonna need it:)


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