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Sacred Tradition...

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    #62
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Ok now I'm confused? We are talking about Apostles passing on their apostleship no? What is apostolic sucession then?
    Apostolic succession is the handing down of authority from apostle to bishop and from bishop to bishop all the way down to the present day. This has to happen in the sacrament of Holy Order (details here http://www.carr.org/~meripper/faith/o-bishop.htm)
    JimiTime wrote: »
    Matthias was chosen after Jesus had ascended. The apostles prayed and cast lots to decide on his apostleship.
    Yes Matthias and Paul are exceptions.


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    #63
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Apostolic succession is the handing down of authority from apostle to bishop and from bishop to bishop all the way down to the present day. This has to happen in the sacrament of Holy Order (details here http://www.carr.org/~meripper/faith/o-bishop.htm)

    So its not actualy 'apostolic' sucession. Its authoritive sucession. they have the authority, without the gifts?


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    #64
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    kelly1 said to Soul Winner:
    Basically you're tell me me that Christ founded a Church and that His Church fell into error despite Christ assurances that the Church would keep the Church in truth and that the gates of Hell wouldn't prevail and that He would be with His Church to the end of time. You don't appear to have a whole lot of faith in Christ's assurances about the Church!
    Noel, as Soul Winner replied, you are confusing the RCC with the Church which Christ spoke of. The latter was and is the worldwide communion of saints - those who have been born again of His Spirit. Christ was not referring to specific churches or groups of churches. Indeed, He sent word to several of these in the first few chapters of Revelation, warning some that they would be destroyed if they did not repent of their errors.

    So the visible Church/churches may well be destroyed, but the invisible one never will. God will always preserve a remnant for Himself. Indeed, we have lived to see that remnant publically emerge in a massive way since the Reformation. There are saints in every nation on Earth, gathering together in secret or in public to honour Him name.

    The Roman Empire did not succeed in stamping it out; neither did its imperial successor. The Inquisition and the Gulags never have nor ever will totally extinguish the Church. The Book of Revelation is a promise of that.


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    #65
    Spyral
    Closed Accounts Posts: 885 ✭✭✭Spyral


    Really and I suppose the book of revelations just fell out of the sky along wiht the rest of your bible ?


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    #66
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Spyral wrote: »
    Really and I suppose the book of revelations just fell out of the sky along wiht the rest of your bible ?
    Its called the "Apocalypse" in your Bible and it is the "Word of God" :)


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    #67
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Spyral wrote: »
    Really and I suppose the book of revelations just fell out of the sky along wiht the rest of your bible ?

    What a great contribution, I see the light now.


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    #68
    Spyral
    Closed Accounts Posts: 885 ✭✭✭Spyral


    Is called the Catholic Church who happend to be going quite well until one eejit decided to reform things and then ballsed it up


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    #69
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    wolfsbane wrote: »
    kelly1 said to Soul Winner:
    Noel, as Soul Winner replied, you are confusing the RCC with the Church which Christ spoke of.
    I certainly am not! The are one and the same.

    1 Tim 3:15 says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. Now please tell me how thousands of Christian denominations with conflicting doctrines can be the pillar and foundation of the truth!?!? And don't tell me that you only have to rely on the bible because they can't agree on interpretations. Can you not see how a single Church with one single faith is vital??


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    #70
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    kelly1 wrote: »
    I certainly am not! The are one and the same.

    1 Tim 3:15 says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. Now please tell me how thousands of Christian denominations with conflicting doctrines can be the pillar and foundation of the truth!?!? And don't tell me that you only have to rely on the bible because they can't agree on interpretations. Can you not see how a single Church with one single faith is vital??
    I would rather be divided in truth than united in error.


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    #71
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    I would rather be divided in truth than united in error.
    And the winner of this week's oxymoron competition is RTDH with his entry - "Divided in Truth". Congratulations to RTDH :)


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    #72
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Spyral wrote: »
    Is called the Catholic Church who happend to be going quite well until one eejit decided to reform things and then ballsed it up

    i see. Such enlightenment, have you got a newsletter sir?


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    #73
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    kelly1 wrote: »
    The Pope is the only successor of the apostles who has the gift of invividual infallibility (when it comes to ex cathedra declarations on matter of faith and morals).
    The Pope is "Inflammable" as we used to say as kids in school.

    I cannot comprehend how millions of people can put their entire faith in an ordinary man dressed up in a religious costume rather than in the inspired word of God.

    Pope John Paul 2nd publicly prays for the Intercession of Mary on December 2003 although the Bible clearly teaches that we are supposed to place 100% of our faith in Jesus Christ (the Lamb of God who died for the sins of the world), Noel You should know this by now from reading. 1 Timothy 2vs5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

    Both Popes have recently proclaimed that Allah of Islam and Jehovah of the Bible are of the one God; even President Bush who proclaims to be a "Born Again Christian" also believes this to be true. Recently these same church leaders have cashed in on the demonic apperitions around the globe by offering their own charterd air service when infact they should be warning their flock not to take heed in such.

    The recent statements by John Paul and Benedict could be corrected by any kid in a Sunday school with basic knowledge of scripture. Im quite surprised that such statements have not triggered alarm bells among Catholics themselves who have a sound knowledge of their own Bibles that their religion is being guided by thieves and robbers attempting to sneak into heaven another way.


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    #74
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    I cannot comprehend how millions of people put their entire faith in an ordinary man dressed up in a religious costume rather than in the inspired word of God.
    Or, as we view things on the other side of the fence, we simply can't understand how hundreds of millions of people attempt to guide their entire lives by interpreting an ordinary book dressed up in the finest religious pantaloons.


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    #75
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Unfortunately, I think this whole idea that the church is what you have faith in means that a Catholic is easily manipulated by their overlords. They are no different from a cult IMO.


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    #76
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    robindch wrote: »
    Or, as we view things on the other side of the fence, we simply can't understand how hundreds of millions of people attempt to guide their entire lives by interpreting an ordinary book dressed up in the finest religious pantaloons.


    Why is it you need to snipe? this is a discussion from within the walls of Christendom. We all know what you think, so why express it in snide jabs. What have you just added to the conversation?


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    #77
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    I cannot comprehend how millions of people put their entire faith in an ordinary man dressed up in a religious costume rather than in the inspired word of God.
    You are entitled to your opinion. I believe in the the primacy of Peter and his successors and I believe his office and authority are legitimate. Why don't you do yourself a favour and read the early Church fathers on the subject?

    http://www.staycatholic.com/ecf_primacy_of_rome.htm
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Pope John Paul 2nd publicly prays for the Intercession of Mary on December 2003 although the Bible clearly teaches that we are supposed to place 100% of our faith in Jesus Christ (the Lamb of God who died for the sins of the world), Noel You should know this by now from reading. 1 Timothy 2vs5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"
    It is true that Jesus is the only mediator between God and man but what's to prevent us having mediator between Christ and man?
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Both Popes have recently proclaimed that Allah of Islam and Jehovah of the Bible are of the one God; even President Bush who proclaims to be a "Born Again Christian" also believes this to be true. Recently these same church leaders have cashed in on the demonic apperitions around the globe by offering their own charterd air service when infact they should be warning the church not to take heed in such.
    Islam and JW's clearly have a different (heretical) idea of what God is. But isn't it very academic to say they pray to a different God?
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    The recent statements by John Paul and Benedict could be corrected by any kid in a Sunday school with basic knowledge of scripture. Im quite surprised that such statements have not triggered alarm bells among Catholics themselves who have a sound knowledge of their own Bibles that their religion is being guided by thieves and robbers attempting to sneak into heaven another way.
    Which statement(s) by Pope Benedict do you take issue with?


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    #78
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    robindch wrote: »
    Or, as we view things on the other side of the fence, we simply can't understand how hundreds of millions of people attempt to guide their entire lives by interpreting an ordinary book dressed up in the finest religious pantaloons.
    I would agree with you that most of the corrupted modern Bibles are just ordinary books that are dressed up with words and names taken from scripture. If one wants to go back to the root of Gods word they must study the Greek translation "Textus receptus", (The received text and not the corrupted alexandrian manuscripts used by most of the unauthorised Bibles to-day) the closest to the "Textus receptus" in the English language is of course the 1611 King James.


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    #79
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Unfortunately, I think this whole idea that the church is what you have faith in means that a Catholic is easily manipulated by their overlords. They are no different from a cult IMO.
    Let's be clear Jimi. My faith is in Christ. This is the pot calling the kettle black coming from a person who denies the Holy Trinity and the divinity of Christ.

    I have faith in the Church BECAUSE of my faith in Christ!


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    #80
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Let's be clear Jimi. My faith is in Christ.

    I know you say that, but I don't believe it. You believe in your church's traditions. You believe if it tells you its the authority on truth. JW's do that also. Talk to any JW and they'll tell you, and be fully convinced, that their faith is in Christ and Jehovah. However, you'll see obviouly that their faith is in their churchs authority. RC is no different.
    This is the pot calling the kettle black coming from a person who denies the Holy Trinity and the divinity of Christ.

    Do I deny the Father? No! Do I deny the holy spirit? No! Do I deny the divinity of Christ? No!
    I have faith in the Church BECAUSE of my faith in Christ!

    That just sounds like a snappy phrase to me. How does faith is Jesus, lead you to 'Faith' in your church?


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    #81
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Do I deny the Father? No! Do I deny the holy spirit? No! Do I deny the divinity of Christ? No!
    You seem to have changed your belief in this. We discussed this before and I seem to recall that you said Christ was not divine and that you didn't believe in the Holy Trinity (3 persons in one God). I could be wrong...
    JimiTime wrote: »
    That just sounds like a snappy phrase to me. How does faith is Jesus, lead you to 'Faith' in your church?
    Because I believe Christ founded one and only one Church united in faith under Christ as opposed to a multitude of different Christian communities.


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    #82
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Why is it you need to snipe?
    Put id down to a bad mood from having to stand in the rain for thirty minutes this morning.

    And I was incidentally suggesting that rtdh's thoughts on Roman catholicism are pretty much the same as my thoughts on christianity. Why did you only take exception to what I said, and not what rtdh said? What I said was no different.


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    #83
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Why is it you need to snipe? this is a discussion from within the walls of Christendom. We all know what you think, so why express it in snide jabs. What have you just added to the conversation?

    Robin is point out the ridiculousness of criticising Catholics for following "just a man" while claiming to follow the inspired word of God.

    To me the Bible is just a book. It isn't to you. You have your reasons for believing this, reasons I think are ridiculous.

    To you the Pope is just a man. He isn't to millions of Catholics. They have reasons for believing this, reasons that you think are ridiculous.

    So what exactly is the difference between believing your book is inspired by God and a Catholic believing the Pope is inspired by God?

    To criticise a Catholic for his faith is simply hypocracy. Kelly's faith in the Pope is no more or less rational or ridiculous than your faith in your old book.


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    #84
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    robindch wrote: »
    Put id down to a bad mood from having to stand in the rain for thirty minutes this morning.

    fair enough. Similar reason to why i probably replied to your post. Feckin weather:)
    And I was incidentally suggesting that rtdh's thoughts on Roman catholicism are pretty much the same as my thoughts on christianity. Why did you only take exception to what I said, and not what rtdh said? What I said was no different.

    Well, it seemed to me, that you were using it to belittle his stance. There is a big difference between the 'internal' wranglings of doctrine from two different perspectives of christendom, than there is from someone who believes none of it and tries to come in on common ground, when really there is none.


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    #85
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    JimiTime wrote: »
    fair enough. Similar reason to why i probably replied to your post. Feckin weather:)
    No worries. And roll on the summer!
    JimiTime wrote: »
    There is a big difference between the 'internal' wranglings of doctrine from two different perspectives of christendom
    In terms of what kelly1 was dismissing, of course there's far less of a difference between your position and his, than there is between my position and your collective one. But that wasn't my point. Which was that how kelly1 was dismissing catholicism was no different from how I was dismissing christianity. If you have problems with one, then surely you should have problems with the other too?


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    #86
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    kelly1 wrote: »
    You are entitled to your opinion. I believe in the the primacy of Peter and his successors and I believe his office and authority are legitimate.
    I once believed in the the primacy of Peter and his successors until I started to read the bible and take authority in it over and above of what what I was led to believe in.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    It is true that Jesus is the only mediator between God and man but what's to prevent us having mediator
    Jesus is our savior, he died on the cross for our salvation, Mary did not. She had the job to bring Jesus (The Man) into the world, and it was never intended for her to take eqality or supremacy over our savior. (Almost every single Roman Catholic shrine throughout the world is based on Mary and not Christ. Knock, Guadalupe, Fatima, Lourdes, Medejorje. I respect Mary as the humble mother of Jesus however I do not make her out into the monster that she is portrayed as by the Roman Catholic Church.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    Islam and JW's clearly have a different (heretical) idea of what God is. But isn't it very academic to say they pray to a different God?
    If a Muslim prays to "his God" he is not praying to "God of the Bible" at all because there is only one way to "God" and that is through Jesus Christ as you know from 2 Timothy 2vs5 infact this guy is a "thief and a robber" trying to sneek into heaven another way. Islam is not of God because it blatently reject the trinity ie the "Father", "Son" and "Holy Spirit". Islam also rejects Jesus as the son of God.

    For both Pope John Paul and Benedict to believe Islamic Allah and Jehova "are of the one God" is proof that these men "do not know God at all".
    kelly1 wrote: »
    Which statement(s) by Pope Benedict do you take issue with?
    Perhaps Benedicts most recent statement that the "Catholic Church is the one true Church" is one statement that I find very offensive. Particularly from a man that heads a business that capitalizes on idolatry and demonic apparitions of Mary other than leading people to the truth which is salvation through Christ of the scriptures. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6956715.stm


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    #87
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    kelly1 said:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wolfsbane
    kelly1 said to Soul Winner:
    Noel, as Soul Winner replied, you are confusing the RCC with the Church which Christ spoke of.

    I certainly am not! The are one and the same.

    1 Tim 3:15 says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. Now please tell me how thousands of Christian denominations with conflicting doctrines can be the pillar and foundation of the truth!?!? And don't tell me that you only have to rely on the bible because they can't agree on interpretations. Can you not see how a single Church with one single faith is vital??
    Really - the RCC has no differences of opinion on what the Bible teaches? The Second Coming of Christ - will it be before or after the Tribulation? Before or after the Millenium? Is the Millenium a literal thousand years, or the complete time of the Church Age?

    And the Fathers did not differ on interpretation of various doctrines?

    Maybe you will say these are things the RCC has not officially ruled on and are therefore up for debate. But what then is the difference if my church/denomination says all it has pronounced on is the infallible truth, and it is the single Church with one single faith in all the world?

    It is the mark of a cult, not a church of Christ. The true Church recognises the Bible as the only apostolic authority we have, and our failings to perfectly understand it lead to various errors. But God has kept us from vital error, while requiring us to study and pray on for greater understanding of lesser matters.


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    #88
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    kelly1 wrote: »
    And the winner of this week's oxymoron competition is RTDH with his entry - "Divided in Truth". Congratulations to RTDH :)

    Ah, you beat him:
    It is true that Jesus is the only mediator between God and man but what's to prevent us having mediator between Christ and man?

    Because that would make TWO mediators between God and man.


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