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UUP and the Orange Order

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    #32
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    On Mike Nesbitt, do any of you remember his stints at UTV in the early 90s? I do, he was a conciliatory voice back then, he hosted debates from both sides and was quite good at what he did. He back then did come across as a progressive Unionist type rather than the bigoted Orange Order type.


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    #33
    Delancey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,451 ✭✭✭Delancey


    gurramok wrote: »
    On Mike Nesbitt, do any of you remember his stints at UTV in the early 90s? I do, he was a conciliatory voice back then, he hosted debates from both sides and was quite good at what he did. He back then did come across as a progressive Unionist type rather than the bigoted Orange Order type.

    He certainly comes across as far more open minded than his predecessors. What is worrying about Northern Ireland politics is that the middle ground ( such as it was ) is being savagely squeezed - the present 2 main parties were historically at the more extreme ends of the spectrum and now we see the ' moderates ' ( SDLP and UUP ) being increasingly marginalised.

    Certainly Nesbitts non-membership of the OO is interesting and perhaps a reflection on the what is happening on the ground - by all accounts membership of the Order is being seen as something of a liability in certain areas and certainly there are fewer members than 20 years ago - I wonder might this encourage Catholic but pro-Union support for the UUP ?


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    #34
    Terrontress
    Registered Users Posts: 3,888 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    Sponge Bob wrote: »



    20 Years ago at the end of the Molyneaux era I believe that every single UUP Parliamentarian elected to Stormont and Westminster was a member of the Orange Order before selection and after election, without exception. 70 years!!!!

    What about Ken Maginnis?

    Ken, the two of us need look no more

    As I understand it he was an extremely influential Unionist politician during the Molyneaux era who was not an OO member.


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    #35
    Fenian Army
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭Fenian Army


    Dont see catholics being more likely to vote uup, why would they? They have many better options, Shinners, Stoops and even perhaps the alliance party. I mean nationalist are hardly going to vote for a unionist party with the accompanying policies just because the leader is not in the OO, as if that was the issue that was stopping nationalists from voting?


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    #36
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    I think the UUP should join the Conservatives but reserve the right to a separate whip for NI matters. They are far closer to mainstream British Conservatism than they were 20 years back.

    IE run for westminster as Conservative and for stormont as UUP.


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    #37
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Terrontress wrote: »
    What about Ken Maginnis?

    As I understand it he was an extremely influential Unionist politician during the Molyneaux era who was not an OO member.

    Seeming he was not an OO member but an Apprentice Boys member, maybe I should have said "Loyal Order" then. But no matter. I feel those days are long gone.


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    #38
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Fenian Army wrote: »
    Dont see catholics being more likely to vote uup, why would they? They have many better options, Shinners, Stoops and even perhaps the alliance party. I mean nationalist are hardly going to vote for a unionist party with the accompanying policies just because the leader is not in the OO, as if that was the issue that was stopping nationalists from voting?
    Catholic != Nationalist/Republican

    Protestant != Unionist/Loyalist

    ;)

    Times are changing. Unionist minded catholics are 100% out there and not in tiny numbers. There are FAR too many catholics heavily dependent on the UK government for their bread and butter (loads of catholics in the proportionally over-sized civil and public services in NI) who are not about to put themselves out of work for a different colour flag and not much else. These catholics may not be vocal-they most likely wouldn't be given the history of NI but they certainly exist and as politics normalises in NI, a unionist party that distances itself from the perceived bigotry of the OO has voters out there waiting for it.

    The UUP would be well advised to model itself this way IMO. Can they be successful in this? Maybe.


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    #39
    bee_keeper
    Site Banned Posts: 222 ✭✭bee_keeper


    Patrick Cleburne wrote: »
    Thousands and thousands of people all over Ulster are in marching bands which march during the marching season without the Orange Order and the ABOD. It is a cultural and Protestant tradition which has been going for hundreds of years. It is in the blood.

    The Orange Order is part of Irish society and Ulster society. The UUP are perfectly entitled to be linked with them if they want. They aren't ashamed of their heritage.

    the KKK is a cultural tradition in missisippi and alabama

    i dont go in for cultural equality myself


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    #40
    Delancey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,451 ✭✭✭Delancey


    murphaph wrote: »
    Catholic != Nationalist/Republican

    Protestant != Unionist/Loyalist

    ;)

    Times are changing. Unionist minded catholics are 100% out there and not in tiny numbers. There are FAR too many catholics heavily dependent on the UK government for their bread and butter (loads of catholics in the proportionally over-sized civil and public services in NI) who are not about to put themselves out of work for a different colour flag and not much else. These catholics may not be vocal-they most likely wouldn't be given the history of NI but they certainly exist and as politics normalises in NI, a unionist party that distances itself from the perceived bigotry of the OO has voters out there waiting for it.

    The UUP would be well advised to model itself this way IMO. Can they be successful in this? Maybe.

    The above post sums up what I'm driving at - very easy to assume Catholics are nationalist or otherwise anti-union.
    I remember my Grandfather ( in Belfast ) being very anti-RUC , British Army , etc - he came across as strongly nationalist and given his deep religious faith he despised the UUP as '' infested '' with Orangemen .
    Yet he admitted he had benefitted economically from the union and on that basis alone would not have wanted unity with the 26 counties.

    The economic collapse in the Republic is hardly likely to encourage many people ( Catholics included ) to seek a 32 county union , might Catholics start voting UUP in numbers ?


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    #41
    bee_keeper
    Site Banned Posts: 222 ✭✭bee_keeper


    gurramok wrote: »
    On Mike Nesbitt, do any of you remember his stints at UTV in the early 90s? I do, he was a conciliatory voice back then, he hosted debates from both sides and was quite good at what he did. He back then did come across as a progressive Unionist type rather than the bigoted Orange Order type.

    ive heard him on tv recently , he doesnt come across as a bigot , doesnt come across as particulary impressive either but certainly not a bigot


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    #42
    J Cheever Loophole
    Registered Users Posts: 967 ✭✭✭J Cheever Loophole


    Patrick Cleburne wrote: »
    The Orange Order is part of Irish society and Ulster society. The UUP are perfectly entitled to be linked with them if they want. They aren't ashamed of their heritage.

    Of course they are entitled to that link. What they are not entitled to do is to express any degree of surprise at the electoral catastrophe that follows on from this!

    If I recall correctly, the official link between the Ulster Unionist Party (UUP) and the Orange Order was severed in recent years by the Orange Order themselves. Despite this, the link was still (unofficially) close. When Tom Elliott was voted in as the new leader, it emerged that a significant amount of the membership of the UUP was from Tom Elliott's fiefdom of Fermanagh / South Tyrone - an area where the UUP / Orange Order link would be very strong, and where Tom Elliott was a former County Grand Master.

    The Orange Order and UUP would of course be very conservative by their nature - slow to change and distrustful / suspicious of anything that would impact on the way things were. The election of Tom Elliott must be seen in that context, and what followed was a controversial leadership period that caused young forward thinking members such as Trevor Ringland to resign from the party. The UUP were there for all of the electorate to see - slow, ponderous, conservative, stuck in the past - yesterday's men. The political meltdown continued.

    Meanwhile the DUP - as always - have shown themselves to be able to run rings around the UUP. In the past, this would have been claiming the more extreme ground. Nowadays, it is about appealing to the middle ground, and yes, that includes Catholic voters.

    That's why Peter Robinson was to be seen at my local football ground - the Morgan Athletic Grounds - to watch Derry play Armagh in the Dr McKenna Cup. The DUP are much more aware and forward thinking - they know that by and large the issues of the troubles are behind us and elections will in future be run on issues such as the economy. It is surely no coincidence that today the UUP do not have one single Member of Parliament - something that would have been considered an impossibility just twenty years ago.

    I think Mike Nesbitt is exactly what the UUP needs at the moment if it is to get off the canvas and present itself in the future as a viable political alternative. Mike Nesbitt is everything his predecessor was not - liberal, forward thinking, open minded - a man of the future. By electing him as leader, the UUP I feel have recognised the need to change and dispense with the old baggage - however there is an awful lot of lost ground to make up.


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    #43
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    getzls wrote: »
    Good to see the first non O.O. leader. Now we can look forward to the first leader of S.F. who was not in the I.R.A. :cool:

    you mean Arthur Griffith


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    #44
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Delancey wrote: »
    The economic collapse in the Republic is hardly likely to encourage many people ( Catholics included ) to seek a 32 county union , might Catholics start voting UUP in numbers ?

    Might catholics vote in numbers for 'union' parties as they tend to do in Scotland, possibly.


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    #45
    getzls
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 806 ✭✭✭getzls


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    you mean Arthur Griffith
    Well he was in the I.R.B. so near enough. Yes, i should have put modern day Shinners.


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    #46
    Richard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,439 ✭✭✭Richard


    Patrick Cleburne wrote: »
    You don't have to be in the Order to be an Orangeman

    Yes you do.


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    #47
    Richard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,439 ✭✭✭Richard


    Fenian Army wrote: »
    Dont see catholics being more likely to vote uup, why would they? They have many better options, Shinners, Stoops and even perhaps the alliance party. I mean nationalist are hardly going to vote for a unionist party with the accompanying policies just because the leader is not in the OO, as if that was the issue that was stopping nationalists from voting?

    No, but pro-union Catholics may have been put off by the OO link.

    John Gorman, former MLA for North Down is a Catholic. The UUP were almost falling over themselves to publicise this fact, describing him as a "prominent Catholic" on their election literature.


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    #48
    Patrick Cleburne
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 141 ✭✭Patrick Cleburne


    Richard wrote: »
    Yes you do.
    No you don't. You are talking about the Order, I am talking about the cultural expression.


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