All things bright and beautiful...

looksee · 05-10-2015 11:11am #1

Without theism there would be no atheism, there would be no need for it. As a result most of the threads here are more or less negative reactions to theism - even the funny ones.

So, just a thought, is there any way we can have views on the positive aspects of life as seen by an atheist. Not comparisons of how much more reasonable atheism is than theism, but how living a non-religious life can have in itself positive aspects?

I am having difficulty phrasing this because of the original point that our views on this forum are mostly dependent on discounting religious beliefs. All the terminology requires non- in front of it; is there a way of saying that you simply accept and enjoy life, nature, people, good health and so on. Maybe I have just been living here so long (and am in the age group) that I am completely accustomed to hearing 'thank god' at the end of any positive statement.

Sorry, I think this is probably just waffle, but I would be interested in hearing any thoughts about it.

Zillah · 05-10-2015 12:32pm

I really don't think there is anything positive (as opposed to the absence of a negative) to be said about a position is that intrinsically oppositional.

Atheism is about the absence of belief in God - by definition any benefits are to be contrasted with what is bad about believing in God.

I suppose I could contrive some argument about training the mind in scepticism, but really atheism would just be a result of that rather than a cause.

Doctor DooM · 05-10-2015 3:05pm

I think you could probably have ones on what some people think are the logical outcomes of atheism- secularism, humanism etc- but atheism itself is just the assertion that you don't believe in a god claim, so it'd be hard to be positive about that!

One eyed Jack · 05-10-2015 3:12pm

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I think you could probably have ones on what some people think are the logical outcomes of atheism- secularism, humanism etc- but atheism itself is just the assertion that you don't believe in a god claim, so it'd be hard to be positive about that!

I think the OP is moreso suggesting a thread about the upside experiences of being atheist?

I'm not atheist myself, and my wife doesn't identify as atheist, but is non-religious, so one of the upsides for her at least, the most obvious one really, is getting an extra lie-in on a Sunday (and a bit of peace and quiet

), when I'm gone to mass.

She might go to the gym early too while I'm doing pilates of a different kind*

*The Catholic Pilates, funniest expression I've ever read on here to describe the activity! :pac:

Penn · 05-10-2015 3:23pm

looksee wrote: »

Without theism there would be no atheism, there would be no need for it. As a result most of the threads here are more or less negative reactions to theism - even the funny ones.

So, just a thought, is there any way we can have views on the positive aspects of life as seen by an atheist. Not comparisons of how much more reasonable atheism is than theism, but how living a non-religious life can have in itself positive aspects?

I am having difficulty phrasing this because of the original point that our views on this forum are mostly dependent on discounting religious beliefs. All the terminology requires non- in front of it; is there a way of saying that you simply accept and enjoy life, nature, people, good health and so on. Maybe I have just been living here so long (and am in the age group) that I am completely accustomed to hearing 'thank god' at the end of any positive statement.

Sorry, I think this is probably just waffle, but I would be interested in hearing any thoughts about it.

One of the things I love is that by not believing in an afterlife, it gives this life far more significance. When people are gone from this life, they're gone. As sad as that is, it makes the time we spent with them all the more precious. When we die, we die. It means that the life we spend here, and now, is what's important.

Eternal life after death relegates this life to being little more than an entrance exam for the next life.

mahoganygas · 05-10-2015 3:24pm

I'm agnostic and I always get asked questions about afterlife. Things like: "are you not terrified that there's nothing after you die?"

In contrast I view death and the vaccum after death as inspiring. Of all of the vast empty space in our universe, sprinkled with tiny nuggets of gas and rock - we are so incredibly lucky to have life on this planet. Not only do we have life but we have sentient life.

I consider myself humbled to be here. I can perceive the world around me and I can even look inside my own mind. I have a tiny amount of time on this rock. I have accepted that. So I'm going to enjoy every last minute of it. And more importantly I'm not going to spend any time fretting about an afterlife or worrying about how a God will judge me. That's just a distraction that I don't want during my short stay in life.

And i most certainly don't want to waste every Sunday morning sitting in a cold room, being told off by a morally questionable organisation.

lazygal · 05-10-2015 4:15pm

On the without theism there'd be no atheism, that's true for me. I was raised in typical a la carte Irish cultural Catholicism and feel I've left that behind. For handiness sake I'll say atheist if verbally asked for a form or whatever. However my children have no concept of religion whatsoever. They've never heard of a God or gods and religion simply isn't part of them. So I don't know if they'll self identify as atheist. Atheist might not be a suitable label for those who simply don't have religion in their lives and never had.

mahoganygas · 05-10-2015 4:27pm

lazygal wrote: »

On the without theism there'd be no atheism, that's true for me. I was raised in typical a la carte Irish cultural Catholicism and feel I've left that behind. For handiness sake I'll say atheist if verbally asked for a form or whatever. However my children have no concept of religion whatsoever. They've never heard of a God or gods and religion simply isn't part of them. So I don't know if they'll self identify as atheist. Atheist might not be a suitable label for those who simply don't have religion in their lives and never had.

That's an interesting point. If you have never 'found' God does that make you atheist by default? Or is there another term?

Penn · 05-10-2015 4:41pm

mahoganygas wrote: »

That's an interesting point. If you have never 'found' God does that make you atheist by default? Or is there another term?

Atheism is a lack of belief in a god or gods.

If no religion ever existed, we'd still be atheist, but there'd likely be no such word to define it as it wouldn't be something which needed to be defined.

We're all atheist by default, as no child is born with religion or a belief in a god or gods. It's a social construct determined by our upbringing.

Kiwi in IE · 05-10-2015 5:26pm

looksee wrote: »

is there a way of saying that you simply accept and enjoy life, nature, people, good health and so on.

Yes of course! Because we are atheists, and therefore we can accept and enjoy same, without having to resort to makey uppey or superstitious reasons for their origins!

Cabaal · 05-10-2015 5:48pm

mahoganygas wrote: »

I'm agnostic and I always get asked questions about afterlife. Things like: "are you not terrified that there's nothing after you die?"

In contrast I view death and the vaccum after death as inspiring. Of all of the vast empty space in our universe, sprinkled with tiny nuggets of gas and rock - we are so incredibly lucky to have life on this planet. Not only do we have life but we have sentient life.

Ontop of this I'd add that on the basic level we never stop existing, sure we're not sentient anymore after we die but the atoms that make me...well, me. Go on to form other things the universe.

Just like the atoms that formed me were once other things and they ultimately came from stars, the iron, calcium etc in me ultimately came from stars

looksee · 05-10-2015 5:51pm

Thank you for your considered responses to my rather confused question. I think Mahoganygas and lazygal have got nearest to what I was trying to say.

The most positive aspect of religion is that people find security and comfort in their belief, and at its best, joy in worship. Because they believe, there are benefits. I do remember the uplifting experience of singing in unison with a lot of other people, but I could not now claim those benefits without belief, and belief is not possible.

There is, however a sense of clarity of thought in not having to commit to belief in a god, what I do is my own responsibility - I do not have to wait till after death to answer to another being. When I die that is the end of it, and that is not an alarming prospect at all.

lameusername · 05-10-2015 7:01pm

As someone who never had to give much thought to the various gods before I moved to Ireland, I feel I missed out on a lot of guilt, fear and shame as a child. Some of the things my OH and friends say about the whole malarkey is sad really. But now I'm here I've had to think about the magical side of life ( it seems like it's everywhere). So now I'm an atheist apparently.

So maybe it made youth a bit more shiny overall. That can only be positive.

BlaasForRafa · 06-10-2015 2:22am

Cabaal wrote: »

Just like the atoms that formed me were once other things and they ultimately came from stars, the iron, calcium etc in me ultimately came from stars

As Neil DeGrasse Tyson says "We are all star stuff". I read a book called "The Disappearing Spoon" a few years ago which described how without stars going supernova we wouldn't exist, it's the dying phase of stars that create the heavier elements iirc.

Life is actually pretty awesome...once you ignore all the ****ty bits...what's the point in obsessing about what's going to happen when you die. Atheism doesn't have to be just about arguing with the religious, it can be an affirmation of the importance of the life you're leading.

The positive aspects of religion that Looksee mentioned is really just the placebo effect, put up with your suffering because it'll be ok in the end, religions prey on the poor and ill-educated and profit from their suffering. If you want to sing in unison with people, go to a heavy metal concert, it'll be a lot more entertaining than mass

Shrap · 06-10-2015 11:16am

lazygal wrote: »

On the without theism there'd be no atheism, that's true for me. I was raised in typical a la carte Irish cultural Catholicism and feel I've left that behind. For handiness sake I'll say atheist if verbally asked for a form or whatever. However my children have no concept of religion whatsoever. They've never heard of a God or gods and religion simply isn't part of them. So I don't know if they'll self identify as atheist. Atheist might not be a suitable label for those who simply don't have religion in their lives and never had.

I was one of those children! I do now identify as atheist as living and growing up in Ireland, I was required to explain my lack of a god concept frequently.

However, it doesn't feel oppositional or having left anything behind. I suppose I'd answer Looksee's question by saying that I'm grateful and happy to have fewer automatic pre-conceptions of right/wrong, good/evil than people who have been brought up to a religion. I feel it leaves me quite broadminded and good at listening to people without having to fight down notions about where they're coming from first.

I'm less fearful of death and the concept of sin doesn't strike a chord with me at all. My take on right/wrong is solely in relation to living things and how they have been affected by something. My take on good/evil is that they are man made concepts, not forces unto themselves. I think my load as a human is a bit lighter than those that I see as under a bit of a yoke with their religions!

Shrap · 06-10-2015 11:18am

lameusername wrote: »

I feel I missed out on a lot of guilt, fear and shame as a child.

This too! Except in Ireland, it was confusing not to feel what society thought I should feel, and attempts were made to shame me for not having religion. I think I felt more isolation as a result.

lameusername · 06-10-2015 11:58am

Shrap wrote: »

This too! Except in Ireland, it was confusing not to feel what society thought I should feel, and attempts were made to shame me for not having religion. I think I felt more isolation as a result.

Is this what awaits my kids? They're not in school yet but that's just not nice.

Mr. CooL ICE · 06-10-2015 12:25pm

Can't say anything positive about my life nowadays regarding atheism. My life is my life and I just live it. Religion means nothing to me. I can only comment on my life before and after becoming atheist.

I did find some comfort in belief. I liked the idea that when I die, I was going to heaven. I didn't lose anyone when I was young, so the thought of being with loved ones didn't mean much at the time, but knowing about it was nice. But the whole God doing everything and having a plan made life confusing. I'd pray for things and sometimes get them, sometimes wouldn't. The stuff I'd pray for was often mundane crap like praying for Arsenal to win so the Man Utd fans in school wouldn't laugh at me. God was just so inconsistent that he was a hard guy to love.

When everything kinda clicked in my head, it felt like a weight off my shoulders. I didn't have to answer to anybody. I was in control of my life. It felt great. I could do what I wanted in life and not have to answer to anybody (within reason - I still have my morals). To this day, the same things hold true. I've accepted that I will never see loved ones, but it's ok. The memories of them is all I have, all I will ever have so I better not feckin lose them.

Shrap · 06-10-2015 2:21pm

lameusername wrote: »

Is this what awaits my kids? They're not in school yet but that's just not nice.

Oh gosh no, I wouldn't think so at all

Sorry for frightening you! This was in 1970's Dublin at a time when every child in the country grew up deliniating themselves and each other in terms of religion and creed, ie. Catholic or Protestant, Republican or "West Brit", etc.

Not fun times if you either didn't belong to either tribe, or didn't agree with being catagorised in such a fashion. These days, schools even if they are denominational, would never stand for the kind of partitionism that went on in playgrounds and classrooms then!

iguana · 07-10-2015 11:25am

Are children predisposed to believe in the fantastical? Whenever he sees cracks, my 2 year old examines them and declares the Hulk responsible. The idea of something unreal and spectacularly larger than life seems very attractive to small children. It's scary to think what I could do to his belief in the world if I was inclined to lead him to believe in a religion.

Cabaal · 07-10-2015 11:55am

iguana wrote: »

Are children predisposed to believe in the fantastical? Whenever he sees cracks, my 2 year old examines them and declares the Hulk responsible. The idea of something unreal and spectacularly larger than life seems very attractive to small children. It's scary to think what I could do to his belief in the world if I was inclined to lead him to believe in a religion.

Pfft,

Hulk is better then god, after all he can beat-up Thor and Loki

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsUCRcK7QYc

HULK GOD!

lameusername · 07-10-2015 2:31pm

iguana wrote: »

Are children predisposed to believe in the fantastical? Whenever he sees cracks, my 2 year old examines them and declares the Hulk responsible. The idea of something unreal and spectacularly larger than life seems very attractive to small children. It's scary to think what I could do to his belief in the world if I was inclined to lead him to believe in a religion.

I'd say predisposed to believe anything their elders tell them. And it sticks.

iguana · 07-10-2015 4:26pm

lameusername wrote: »

I'd say predisposed to believe anything their elders tell them. And it sticks.

The thing is though that nobody told him that the cracks in the ceiling were put there by the Hulk. He just really loves the Hulk and when he noticed cracks put 2 and 2 together and came up with Hulk.

Cabaal wrote: »

Pfft, Hulk is better then god, after all he can beat-up Thor and Loki

And while Hulk has caused property damage when he's angry, at least he's never been so premeditated about it that he planned it far enough in advance to give the one guy he likes an opportunity to build a massive ark.

Peregrinus · 08-10-2015 3:15am

iguana wrote: »

Are children predisposed to believe in the fantastical? Whenever he sees cracks, my 2 year old examines them and declares the Hulk responsible. The idea of something unreal and spectacularly larger than life seems very attractive to small children. It's scary to think what I could do to his belief in the world if I was inclined to lead him to believe in a religion.

A. This is normal.

B. Somewhat ironically, it's an important foundation for the later development of either or both of scientific and religious thinking.

What's going on here is that your son is approaching the cracks on the assumption that the cracks have an explanation. In other words, he has an internalised belief that the universe is regular and rule-bound. Phenomena don't just occur; they unfold in predictable manner. And, for any phenomenon that he observes, there must be an explanation as to why he observes it.

Obviously, you have to believe this to be true before you can believe that you can learn anything from scientific examination of the world.

Right now, of course, he's incapable of scientific examination, or probably of understanding the concept. Nor is he capable of critically evaluating explanations proposed by others and, yes, he would probably accept any explanation backed by your authority. But he recognises that it's meaningful and rational to propose explanations for the cracks, and furthermore his actually proposing an explanation is his affirmation that the world is rule-bound and predictable. And when he's older he won't accept explanations simply because they come with your authority. (Indeed, he'll reach those awkward years when he will reject any explanation simply because it comes backed with your authority.)

But the same instinct predisposes him to religious reflection. Because, given that the world is rule-bound and predictable, it will sooner or later occur to him to ask why this is so? After all, it isn't obvious that the world has to be rule-bound and predictable. And, operating again from the instinct that phenomena do not occur without explanation, he will consider the question fo why the world should be rule-bound and predictable. And you know where that leads.

Hotblack Desiato · 09-10-2015 8:59am

Ah, the hoary old 'fine-tuning' argument finds a new cloak.

Peregrinus · 09-10-2015 9:02am

There is no "fine-tuning" in what I wrote. I think that argument is b*lls.

(Unless you think "the universe is regular and rule-bound" is a fine-tuning argument, in which case scientists are all, by definition, adherents of the fine-tuning argument.)

Hotblack Desiato · 09-10-2015 9:13am

If it were not regular and rule-bound, then atoms would be out of the question never mind life.

It should be no surprise to us that the conditions necessary for our existence, exist..

Peregrinus · 09-10-2015 9:15am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

If it were not regular and rule-bound, then atoms would be out of the question never mind life.

Yes, I know.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It should be no surprise to us that the conditions necessary for our existence, exist..

Yes, I know.

How does this relate to anything I said? And does it have anything to do with "fine-tuning arguments", or are you striking off on a new tack here?

Jellybaby1 · 09-10-2015 4:02pm

looksee wrote: »

Without theism there would be no atheism, there would be no need for it. As a result most of the threads here are more or less negative reactions to theism - even the funny ones.

So, just a thought, is there any way we can have views on the positive aspects of life as seen by an atheist. Not comparisons of how much more reasonable atheism is than theism, but how living a non-religious life can have in itself positive aspects?...

Looksee, your question is completely sensible and I often wondered the same myself in a way but you've nailed it there. When I told my hubby a while back that I was reading through the Atheist forum he said with his usual sense of humour 'that must be a quiet place', and when I asked 'why', he said 'sure what would they have to talk about?' I told him that there seemed to be a huge amount to say about God and Christianity and Faith, but nothing about the wonderful life atheists seem to experience. Exactly like you said, Looksee, there are usually 'negative reactions to theism' on the forum. I often wondered why atheists even bother spending any of their precious time talking about religion or faith when they could be just enjoying their preferred choices in life and maybe relaying those joys here. But once you have said how wonderful it is to sleep late on a Sunday, never having to worry about an afterlife or sin, no cares about blessings, baptism, communion or confession or any of that 'claptrap'.....then you've said it all, and then.....it might all go quiet on the forum. One poster wondered about an alternative name to 'Atheist', and I can only suggest 'Non-Religionist' but would that even be acceptable?

nozzferrahhtoo · 09-10-2015 4:07pm

looksee wrote: »

So, just a thought, is there any way we can have views on the positive aspects of life as seen by an atheist.

Gold is valuable because of it's rarity. If you multiplied the quantity of gold in the world tomorrow 1000 times, you would render it nearly valueless. If you made the quantity of it infinite, it would be less than worthless.

So I guess one positive of atheism is that the precious, fragile and transient nature of life itself defines it's value in a way that the concept of an eternal after life renders it valueless. That each one of us, our lives and consciousness, is unique and transient itself lends infinite value to every one of us.

That said I do not really identify or label myself as atheist, or consider atheism my world view. Rather I see atheism as a RESULT of my world view. And my world view is simple. "If an idea or claim comes before me without any substantiation, I simply do not believe the claim". And there is value in that too as a general approach.

In general the more divorced from reality a world view is, the less utility it has. As anyone who jumps off a building thinking they can fly without the aid of technology can attest or... you know.... not given their subsequent death.

looksee · 09-10-2015 5:17pm

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Looksee, your question is completely sensible and I often wondered the same myself in a way but you've nailed it there. When I told my hubby a while back that I was reading through the Atheist forum he said with his usual sense of humour 'that must be a quiet place', and when I asked 'why', he said 'sure what would they have to talk about?' I told him that there seemed to be a huge amount to say about God and Christianity and Faith, but nothing about the wonderful life atheists seem to experience. Exactly like you said, Looksee, there are usually 'negative reactions to theism' on the forum. I often wondered why atheists even bother spending any of their precious time talking about religion or faith when they could be just enjoying their preferred choices in life and maybe relaying those joys here. But once you have said how wonderful it is to sleep late on a Sunday, never having to worry about an afterlife or sin, no cares about blessings, baptism, communion or confession or any of that 'claptrap'.....then you've said it all, and then.....it might all go quiet on the forum. One poster wondered about an alternative name to 'Atheist', and I can only suggest 'Non-Religionist' but would that even be acceptable?

I think that has to do with frustration and bemusement at the impact theism has on all our lives, regardless of whether we subscribe to it. All we can do is show it for the irrational and illogical belief that it is in the hope removing that effect. Tbh I don't mind whether people have belief or not, just provided it does not impinge on my life.

I like Nozzferrahhtoo's thinking on the topic though!

All things bright and beautiful...

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