School Chaplains' funding protected

Gregor Samsa · 23-03-2012 8:59am #1

Seems that funding for school chaplains is legally protected by the deeds of trust of schools - unlike the funding of more essential services such as Guidance Councilors and Special Needs teachers. So the Government couldn't touch the 9 million a year it costs to pay members of religious orders to hang around schools peddling their personal beliefs.

Report here: http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0323/chaplains.html

I do have to say, at least Minister Quinn is making an attempt to right some of the obvious wrongs in relation to school patronage. But things like this show the challenges he faces.

Beruthiel · 23-03-2012 9:28am

Utter madness.
When you consider what it means for a special needs child to loose their teacher, how that reflects on the quality of the rest of their lives.
Having a school chaplain is about as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike.

Galvasean · 23-03-2012 1:37pm

Reminds me of the (purposely conducted?) uproar when it emerged that the state spends nearly half €500,000 per year protecting endangered species. "Half a million, on frogs?!!??!" they cried out. The newspapers branded it a waste of taxpayers' money. the very same newspapers that see no problem with the same state spending €3million on Communion dresses and no €9 million on Chaplains.
Perspective needed.

expectationlost · 28-03-2015 4:59pm

Dundalk Institute of Technology student can't avoid Catholic chaplin https://nadiawilliams.wordpress.com/2015/03/27/why-things-stay-the-same/ Priest given students emails she can't unsubcribe, although she's tried several times, College Admin say chaplain are compulsory for IT's. can anyone find that in law, did Institutes of Technology come from 'Vocational Education' law? is it in there?

https://www.dkit.ie/about/history https://www.dkit.ie/new-students/welcome-podcasts/welcome-dundalk-institute-technology/history-dundalk-institute-technology short bit of history on RTCs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutes_of_technology_in_Ireland

Red Belly · 28-03-2015 5:07pm

Designated community colleges (ie ETB schools but with a religious affiliation- often the legacy of an amalgamation with a religious school) get an additional teacher allocation for Chaplain. Often the chaplain is a qualified teacher as well so they can use that to offer additional subject teaching as well as chaplaincy/counselling. Non-designated community colleges (basically the same type of school but WITHOUT the religious affiliation) do not get the allocation. Fairness would suggest to me that the non-designated colleges should get the same allocation. They could use it at their discretion- extra subjects- extra counsellor- Humanist chaplain., whatever.

expectationlost · 28-03-2015 5:18pm

School chaplains
In the case of school chaplains paid by the State, these posts are regarded as teaching
posts and, therefore, those appointed to them should be registered teachers.
However, it is also recognised that the most significant aspect to the role and time of
a chaplain is not teaching but the provision of pastoral care in recognised schools.
Having regard to that objective, any school chaplain currently in employment who
cannot gain registration with the Teaching Councilwill be permitted to continue in
his or her primary role in pastoral care but willbe prohibited from teaching. New
appointees to chaplain positions must be registered teachers.

https://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/Requirement-For-Teachers-In-Recognised-Schools-To-Register-With-The-Teaching-Council.pdf

Hotblack Desiato · 28-03-2015 8:30pm

Great to see our taxpayer euros at work :rolleyes:

Brian Shanahan · 29-03-2015 12:23pm

phutyle wrote: »

Seems that funding for school chaplains is legally protected by the deeds of trust of schools - unlike the funding of more essential services such as Guidance Councilors and Special Needs teachers. So the Government couldn't touch the 9 million a year it costs to pay members of religious orders to hang around schools peddling their personal beliefs.

They could if they wanted to. The governments over the years have been censured often enough over the religious brainwashing nature of Irish state education, which should not be allowed in any country with a pretense to democracy.

All they have to do is bring in a law secularising the educational system, and defunding all religious schools, up to and including removing state salaries from teachers, and billing the religious orders for the costs of buying the land and erecting and maintaining the school buildings. You'll quickly find that the churches will hand back control to the state in toto if that happened, and all it would take would be for one taoiseach to finally decide to act in the national interest.

recedite · 29-03-2015 2:02pm

It seems that RTCs, VEC, ETB, have a traditional historical association with the RCC that goes back to a time when education and religion were inseparable. Ireland was "a catholic country" in most peoples minds, and so any religious aspect to these colleges naturally defaulted to RCC, even though they were set up under the aegis of (secular) central and local government.

Its just another example of the lack of separation between church and state, and it won't change until a significant portion of the population objects to it.

SpaceTime · 04-04-2015 1:38am

Hmm this would be the same secular government that seems to think that prayers in the national legislature are important and we've local governments installing "standard size crusifixes" in the council chamber in Kerry for example...

expectationlost · 26-05-2015 11:59pm

good follow up by atheist.ie/ john hamill DKIT are paying 30k a year for catholic chaplin http://atheist.ie/2015/05/religious-equality-third-level-education/ on what basis who knows just because.

expectationlost · 27-05-2015 2:44pm

Atheist Ireland hit out at Dundalk IT for using €30,000 of public funds for Catholic chaplain http://talkofthetown.ie/2015/05/27/atheist-ireland-hit-out-at-dundalk-it-for-using-e30000-of-public-funds-for-catholic-chaplain/

They insist that no decision was ever recorded by the college’s board to make these annual payments and that no tender was issued or process followed to allow other religious or secular bodies to offer pastoral services to students.

have to careful how to tackle this, but again wheres the process?

robindch · 27-05-2015 2:47pm

expectationlost wrote: »

[...] wheres the process?

I'd love to see this one go out to tender - presumably the college can't demand that only catholics (for example) are acceptable, meaning that they might be in a position to have to accept the provision of catholic "services" from non-catholics.

Nice one.

recedite · 27-05-2015 4:05pm

That is quite funny (but sad) to see the president of DIT trying to find out who the new chaplain will be, after apparently hearing on the grapevine that the previous incumbent is to be replaced. Its as if a new papal nuncio is being appointed to the college, except that they are the ones paying for his salary.

The €1200 stipend being paid to a retired Presbyterian to be on standby is very obviously a political device the college has created just to head off any criticism that they are "endowing" the RCC by allowing same to appoint the college chaplain.
If the job of this guy is to provide counselling for students, and the job is publicly funded, it should be open to all qualified counsellors, and all students should be welcome to avail of the service.

If his job is to promote catholicism within the student body, why is he being allowed onto the premises, let alone being paid to do it?

expectationlost · 08-07-2015 6:40pm

Article published in Dundalk Democrat on DkIT Chaplaincy funding http://atheist.ie/wordpress/wp-admin/admin-ajax.php?action=spidercalendarbig&theme_id=13&calendar_id=1&ev_ids=8,55&eventID=8&date=2015-06-9&many_sp_calendar=1&cur_page_url=http://atheist.ie/what-we-do/&widget=0&TB_iframe=1&tbWidth=600&tbHeight=500 which noted the lack of a tender for chaplain at Dundalk IT

good work being done by John Hammill of Atheist Ireland chasing this

Dáil told Catholic Church “Sole Supplier” of Chaplains
http://atheist.ie/2015/07/sole-supplier-chaplains/

so say they don't have to tender but there nothing in the the job description (included in link) that explains that why there can only one supplier.

Joan Collins raised it during the employment equality bill https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2015-06-17a.353&s=chaplain#g370 minister doesnt' seem to respond

The position regarding School Chaplain posts which are paid by the State is set out in Circular 0025/2013
https://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/Requirement-For-Teachers-In-Recognised-Schools-To-Register-With-The-Teaching-Council.pdf
all chaplains have to registered teachers unless they are already in place

missing links
https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-07-01a.647&s=chaplain#g648.q
https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-06-30a.17&s=chaplain#g18.q

Zamboni · 08-07-2015 7:20pm

It really is quite extraordinary. I'd imagine it is only the tip of the iceberg in relation to unchecked public funds being diverted to religious organisations.
And the public cannot get a cent for abuse case recompense.

expectationlost · 08-07-2015 7:34pm

anybody find out when O'Fiaich Institute of Further Education was founded https://www.facebook.com/ofiaichinstitute classed as interdominational http://education.ie/en/find-a-school/School-Detail/?roll=71770D its logo looks similar to the bishop of Armagh logo http://atheist.ie/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Letters.jpg and named after a former Cardinal

beginning of college started by man behind chapel street school http://www.independent.ie/regionals/argus/news/the-man-who-turned-first-key-in-regional-college-is-retiring-from-lecturing-26914192.html

http://www.ofiaichcollege.ie/overview.html oh 1906

O’Fiaich College began life in Chapel Street in 1906 as Dundalk Municipal Technical School. In 1970 it moved to a new building in the VEC campus on the Dublin Road. A large extension to the facility was added in 1990.

Cardinal Tomás O’Fiaich, Archbishop of Armagh and Primate of Ireland, died shortly before he was to officially open the new building. In his honour, the entire facility became known as ‘O’Fiaich College’.

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/argus/entertainment/the-men-with-the-vision-to-see-technical-evolution-26906421.html

look asked about students at Tech in 1969 and lists leaving cert students http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/takes/dail1969121800069?opendocument&highlight=Regional%20Technical%20College%2C%20Dundalk

The new name Ó Fiaich College was adopted in 1990 https://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Inspection-Reports-Publications/Whole-School-Evaluation-Reports-List/report7_71770D.pdf

just wondering would there be something in the ITs Deed of Trust/founding document like in VECs https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2009-06-09.2575.0&s=vec+AND+chaplains#g2577.0.r an agreement in deeds of trust is reason given for why community colleges have chaplains

Deed of Trust for Community Schools and the Model Agreement for Community Colleges

find these

Review of the Deed of Trust for Community Schools
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:mcsQtFPmmM4J:www.accs.ie/content/uploads/1/Teresa_McNeill-Review_of_the_Deed_of_Trust_for_Community12_10_11.pdf+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

Association of Trustees of Catholic Schools Annual Report 2013
http://atcs.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/ATCS-Annual-Report-2013.pdf
The issue of a new Deed of Trust for Community Schools has arisen. This will happen in the context of the new Educate Together Community School. In general terms, it seems sensible that all Community Schools would have a written Deed of Trust. It is true that many such schools are operating on a ‘custom and practice’ model without such a written document. However and particularly in the context of the threat to ex-quota chaplains in such schools and the advice of the Attorney
General that the Deed of Trust safeguarded them, it would be wise to have such a written Deed
I have raised the duties and responsibilities of the Trustees in such scho
ols in relation to the situation where the Principal is ignoring the provision for chaplaincy. That issue is ongoing but I look forward to receiving the continued wisdom and support of
our colleagues in the ETBI and ACCS in this regard!

A Handbook for Vocational Education Committees and Boards of Management of Schools and Community Colleges
http://www.ivea.ie/pdf/bom/bom_handbook.pdf

(5) The VEC will appoint a Chaplain to a Model Agreement College in accordance with the
Model Agreement

page 23

18. Chaplain
In accordance with the existing Model Agreement arrangement the VEC will appoint a chaplain,
nominated by the relevant competent religious authority, who shall be employed in an ex quota
capacity in the college. The chaplain shall be a full-time member of staff, must fulfil the
requirements of the VEC and of the nominating authority and must abide by the regulations of the
Minister for Education and Science

page 76

For Designated Communtiy colleges? http://www.teachdontpreach.ie/2014/10/designated-community-colleges-come-under-the-full-patronage-of-the-etb-vec-and-have-a-specific-religious-ethos/

Deeds of Trust for Community Schools and Community Colleges
Model Lease for a Community School
http://www.asti.ie/operation-of-schools/management-of-schools/deeds-of-trust-for-community-schools-and-community-colleges/

10. Organisation and Curriculum
(x) The Board of Management will appoint a Chaplain nominated by the competent Religious Authority who shall be employed outside the normal quota of the school. He shall be a full-time member of the staff and shall be paid a salary equivalent to that of a teacher in the school.

Staff Council
(x) The Committee will appoint a Chaplain nominated by the competent Religious Authority who shall be employed outside the normal quota of the school. He shall be a full-time member of the staff and shall be paid a salary equivalent to that of a teacher in the school.

expectationlost · 17-08-2015 9:26pm

Dundalk IT making efforts to attract students from the North https://soundcloud.com/morning-ireland/dundalk-it-making-efforts-to-attract-students-from-the-north

talking about all the international students they have

Hotblack Desiato · 18-08-2015 9:59pm

What is it with RTE putting people with horrible voices completely unsuited for broadcasting on the radio, it's like she's presenting 'radio for the stupid' or something :mad:

are Dundalk IT going to hire a protestant chaplain in a dodgy fashion to even things up?

recedite · 19-08-2015 1:23pm

Ungrateful Nordies, not even applying to Dundalk IT.
After the college paying €1200 to a retired Presbyterian clergyman to stay at home on standby :mad:

expectationlost · 02-09-2015 6:24pm

Chaplaincy job also not advertised at Sligo IT see https://twitter.com/CWhyte___/status/638757110248009728

and I presume similar at Letterkenny http://www.highlandradio.com/2015/09/01/atheist-ireland-highly-concerned-over-appointment-of-catholic-chaplain-at-l-y-i-t/ although i don't think anyone specifically says so

all these secular ITs making deals only with the churches.

http://itsligo.ie/student-hub/student-support-services-2/chaplaincy/
https://www.lyit.ie/studentlife/studentservices/chaplaincy/

theres 13 ITs https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1v-pNc-qhFD_j5H4VTPtSKbmNz6rIm3CxbDXhB3Y3YpE/edit?usp=sharing

most only have 1 paid chaplain staff (or 1 for each Campus), almost all catholic priests

Absolam · 03-09-2015 3:11am

expectationlost wrote: »

Chaplaincy job also not advertised at Sligo IT see and I presume similar at Letterkenny although i don't think anyone specifically says so all these secular ITs making deals only with the churches.
theres 13 ITs most only have 1 paid chaplain staff (or 1 for each Campus), almost catholic priests

It must be a secular conspiracy

expectationlost · 03-09-2015 1:38pm

Absolam wrote: »

It must be a secular conspiracy

or all the religious bias of the presidents of the ITs makes them think this is a catholic country

henryporter · 03-09-2015 1:44pm

expectationlost wrote: »

Dundalk IT making efforts to attract students from the North https://soundcloud.com/morning-ireland/dundalk-it-making-efforts-to-attract-students-from-the-north

talking about all the international students they have

Even more reason they should have a non-denominational/secular chaplain in place - not a lot of those international students would be card carrying Catholics

Absolam · 04-09-2015 12:49am

expectationlost wrote: »

or all the religious bias of the presidents of the ITs makes them think this is a catholic country

Is there any evidence that all of the presidents of the ITs have a religious bias, or that they think this is a catholic country?
Other than appointing clergy to religious positions of course.

recedite · 04-09-2015 6:04pm

Absolam wrote: »

Other than appointing clergy to religious positions of course.

Its the RCC hierarchy who make the appointments not the ITs.
Check out the scan of the letter from the President of DIT where be pathetically asks Cardinal Brady for some info on who the new chaplain is going to be. And Brady's reply where he basically tells him to fcuk off and mind his own business.
What happened to "He who pays the piper calls the tune"?

Absolam · 05-09-2015 12:13am

recedite wrote: »

Its the RCC hierarchy who make the appointments not the ITs.
Check out the scan of the letter from the President of DIT where be pathetically asks Cardinal Brady for some info on who the new chaplain is going to be. And Brady's reply where he basically tells him to fcuk off and mind his own business.

So... we can discount chaplaincy positions as evidence of all of the presidents of the ITs having a religious bias then? Fair enough.

recedite wrote: »

What happened to "He who pays the piper calls the tune"?

Can't say I've ever seen it encoded in any binding rule system for the ITs, but I could be wrong?

Funny that you read "I am happy to progress the delivery of the Catholic Chaplaincy service along the lines suggested" as "fcuk off and mind your own business" though, I guess it's all about perspective, eh?

expectationlost · 21-09-2015 10:04pm

member of the church of the fyling spaghetti monster john Hamill explains on Shannonside radio how he will now be able to apply for the position of chaplain at the Dundalk IT now the president of the college has decided to advertise the job rather then let the local Bishop pick the person https://www.facebook.com/AtheistIreland/posts/10153525905719017 https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bzuq5F9CY6eSZV9CRlhRZENlX1E/view

expectationlost · 24-09-2015 10:20pm

some PQs on this

Jan O'Sullivan recruitment of chaplains is also a matter for individual higher education institutions however, it should be in line with public sector appointment criteria and the provisions of the Employment Control Framework for the sector.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-09-22a.3104&s=chaplain#g3108.r

Employment Control Framework for the Higher Education Sector
2011
-
2014
http://www.hea.ie/sites/default/files/revised_ecf_2011-2014_june_2011.pdf
so chaplains are under the ECF?
which category of post is chaplain? I suppose Core

the ECF seems most to do with lifting of hiring embargoe rather then the method of hiring

recedite · 25-09-2015 12:33pm

Public sector appointment criteria stipulate that the jobs must be advertised in the public domain.
Whereas these jobs are being filled from within the ranks of priests, by the bishop, acting on behalf of the higher education institutions.
What's Jan going to do about it?

expectationlost · 01-10-2015 11:01pm

To ask the Minister for Education and Skills further to Parliamentary Questions 1198,1199 and 1286 of 22 September 2015, if her Department monitors whether institutes of technology adhere to the employment control framework; the actions her Department takes when a notification is made that an institute of technology has breached the framework; whether it is legal for third level institutions to discriminate on the basis of religion when appointing persons as chaplains.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-09-29a.1169&s=chaplain#g1174.r

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, United Left)
Link to this: Individually | In context
555. To ask the Minister for Education and Skills her views that State-funded contracts are awarded on a sectarian basis by public bodies; if there are public procurement guidelines available which would ensure value for money within the third level education sector. [33378/15]

Jan O'Sullivan

The recruitment of staff is also a matter for individual higher education institutions, however, it should be in line with public sector appointment criteria and the provisions of the Employment Control Framework for the sector. Officials of my Department have been in discussions with the HEA in relation to this matter and it has been agreed that the HEA will undertake a survey on the recruitment of chaplaincy services within the institutions.

success? will we ever see the result of this?

School Chaplains' funding protected

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