POC's Red Card.++ Mod Warning. Read OP++

LeinsterDub · 13-12-2010 4:11pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Nobody got an elbow on the Rugby pitch.

Any chance you missed the match and only saw Hooke on the Rte highlights

I'm sorry, I stand corrected an open handed hit to the neck ,which looked to have a fair bit of force behind it because that is so much better

Otacon · 13-12-2010 4:20pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I'm sorry, I stand corrected an open handed hit to the neck ,which looked to have a fair bit of force behind it because that is so much better

You need to stand corrected again tbh; it was a wrist into the mouth.

Anyway, that doesn't really matter. Personally, I though POC deserved the red and probably a two-week ban. However, Berdos was rubbish, again, and Thomas should be ashamed of himself for the 'drama'.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 13-12-2010 4:29pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I'm sorry, I stand corrected an open handed hit to the neck ,which looked to have a fair bit of force behind it because that is so much better

His chin iirc.

But yes that is "so much better", as you put it. An elbow can do much more damage than a forearm can.

In relation to Thomas, its mentioned on the Ospreys' site that he didn't feel himself after the match. The irony of him having a concussion and missing 3 weeks and O'Connell getting 2 weeks would be epic

. I don't wish a concussion upon him as Fogarty and Jackman retired because of them, but the irony would be brilliant.

Oh and here is some bull from Jonathan Humphreys on the Ospreys'd site:

"Paul O'Connell is not a dirty player by any stretch of the imagination. A very similar thing happened to Gavin Henson against Leicester, and unfortunately he got ten weeks for an offence like that. Everybody in the rugby world knows Paul, we've played against him a lot and have a lot of admiration for him as a player. He's an iconic figure, so it's disappointing for him and Munster that he potentially could miss a large chunk of the season now."

Comparing a flailing arm to a premeditated and unprovoked elbow is just crazy

buck65 · 13-12-2010 4:33pm

I jest of course but it is somewhat dispiriting to see some of the provincial tripe rear it's head again in the shape of so called objective opionions. Shameful comments like "Filth" and "elbow smash" etc being mentioned. Not long ago Jamie Heaslip was in a similar situation and I felt there was a little more restraint on the forum than some are showing here, of course I'm biased but attacking proven Irish sportsmen when they're down is all too easy here. Alot of posters live for these incidents and rarely come out to play for the rest of the season.
These things happen in a savage contact sport. Do I think any less of Hayes, Heaslip, Jennings, O Connell because of it? Not a chance.

LeinsterDub · 13-12-2010 4:39pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

His chin iirc.

But yes that is "so much better", as you put it. An elbow can do much more damage than a forearm can.

In relation to Thomas, its mentioned on the Ospreys' site that he didn't feel himself after the match. The irony of him having a concussion and missing 3 weeks and O'Connell getting 2 weeks would be epic . I don't wish a concussion upon him as Fogarty and Jackman retired because of them, but the irony would be brilliant.

Oh and here is some bull from Jonathan Humphreys on the Ospreys'd site:

"Paul O'Connell is not a dirty player by any stretch of the imagination. A very similar thing happened to Gavin Henson against Leicester, and unfortunately he got ten weeks for an offence like that. Everybody in the rugby world knows Paul, we've played against him a lot and have a lot of admiration for him as a player. He's an iconic figure, so it's disappointing for him and Munster that he potentially could miss a large chunk of the season now."

Comparing a flailing arm to a premeditated and unprovoked elbow is just crazy

Check that clip 20 seconds in, his hand contacts his neck.

Anyway all this nit picking is beside the point. What he done was dangerous and reckless at best. If you do something like that on a rugby pitch you deserve a ban.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 13-12-2010 4:42pm

buck65 wrote: »

Not if you are a Leinster supporter:D
I jest of course but it is somewhat dispiriting to see some of the provincial tripe rear it's head again in the shape of so called objective opionions. Shameful comments like "Filth" and "elbow smash" etc being mentioned. Not long ago Jamie Heaslip was in a similar situation and I felt there was a little more restraint on the forum than some are showing here, of course I'm biased but attacking proven Irish sportsmen when their down is all too easy here. Alot of posters live for these incidents and rarely come out to play for the rest of the season.
These things happen in a savage contact sport. Do I think any less of Hayes, Heaslip, Jennings, O Connell because of it? Not a chance.

The Heaslip and Jennings incidents were positively 100% totally different...definitely :P

...Maybe

Boom__Boom · 13-12-2010 4:45pm

No real problem with the ref giving a red from what he saw but if you look at the very start of this video it's clear that Thomas has a hold of O'Connel's shorts very close to the groin area.

Holding/pulling back a player by their shorts/grabbing around the groin area has the potential to be extremely painful and I wouldn't be surprised if it was somewhat a case of an instinctive reaction to that.

I would have a lot more sympathy to someone reacting to this compared to someone pulling/holding someone back by pulling a jersey.

There's also the fact that the ref clearly says elbow to the face, so I would imagine that given the ref got that wrong the punishment woulnd be too severe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O8s5J9yjxg

buck65 · 13-12-2010 4:46pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

The Heaslip and Jennings incidents were positively 100% totally different...definitely :P

...Maybe

I know, McCaw could have lost a shoulder and Kennedy a scrum cap.

13-12-2010 4:46pm

buck65 wrote: »

I jest of course but it is somewhat dispiriting to see some of the provincial tripe rear it's head again in the shape of so called objective opionions. Shameful comments like "Filth" and "elbow smash" etc being mentioned. Not long ago Jamie Heaslip was in a similar situation and I felt there was a little more restraint on the forum than some are showing here, of course I'm biased but attacking proven Irish sportsmen when they're down is all too easy here. Alot of posters live for these incidents and rarely come out to play for the rest of the season.
These things happen in a savage contact sport. Do I think any less of Hayes, Heaslip, Jennings, O Connell because of it? Not a chance.

If you didn't have that first line which is definitely due to spark something, I'd agree unquestionably with this whole post.

edit - cheers, good man!

13-12-2010 4:48pm

Boom__Boom wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O8s5J9yjxg

great video. Get a chance to see it in real time, no instant replay, with the same line of sight as the referee.

Insta red card from his angle. And unquestionable imo

buck65 · 13-12-2010 4:48pm

Deleted User wrote: »

If you didn't have that first line which is definitely due to spark something, I'd agree unquestionably with this whole post.

Gwan and delete it just to keep some civility.

Done Emmet

toomevara · 13-12-2010 4:51pm

Sigh.....locked.Will be reviewing at my leisure.

**edit** Re-opening, not as bad as I first feared. Again folks, a gentle reminder, watch the tribalism and personal abuse. zero-tolerance on this thread.You have been warned...

Cpt_Blackbeard · 13-12-2010 5:16pm

Boom__Boom wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O8s5J9yjxg

I don't care what anyone says about the incident itself, you got to love the what of disbelief from Leamy when POC gets the card. Quality

buck65 · 13-12-2010 5:21pm

Actually watching Leamy now has become a sideshow in his own right!
His instinct is to get involved and just as he's getting stuck in he remembers he's captain and pulls back leaving his opponent wondering what the hell is going on as he turns around and starts to break up the fight he probably started.
Yesterday he nearly threw the ball in Phillips face (Phillips has that kind of face doesn't he?) and checked himself and almost apologised to a confused Phillips, pure Jekyll and Hyde comedy.

Luckycharm · 13-12-2010 5:38pm

Was what Thomas did to POC any worse then what DOC did to Phillips?

d'Oracle · 13-12-2010 5:39pm

Anyone here who is making the "it wasn't an elbow" excuse or whatever:

Two things.
1) Have a look at any incident of striking with the forearm and see what it was called. I recall Woody getting carded and a penalty at restart for hammering an english lad with the forearm after scoring a try. call was leading with the elbow.

2) get a mate to smash you in the face with his forearm on one side and the with his elbow on the other side of your face. I would wager that there will not be a noticeable difference in how much pain each side will be in. By all means report back.

13-12-2010 5:42pm

d'Oracle wrote: »

2) get a mate to smash you in the face with his forearm on one side and the with his elbow on the other side of your face. I would wager that there will not be a noticeable difference in how much pain each side will be in. By all means report back.

If you do do this, we demand video evidence

buck65 · 13-12-2010 5:45pm

Luckycharm wrote: »

Was what Thomas did to POC any worse then what DOC did to Phillips?

No, same thing really. Went on all day yesterday.

blackdog2 · 13-12-2010 5:53pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I don't care what anyone says about the incident itself, you got to love the what of disbelief from Leamy when POC gets the card. Quality

The highlight for me is 1:03 in

Santa Cancels Christmas

Luckycharm · 13-12-2010 5:58pm

buck65 wrote: »

No, same thing really. Went on all day yesterday.

It probally happens in all matches to a degree - players getting their jerseys tugged back when chasing kicks - in the Toulon v london Irish game - sackey clearly got tackled without the ball which would def had led to a try 3 ms short of the tryline - ref missed it. POC had a red mist moment like Heaslip in NZ, eric Miller had one in a Celtic League final back in 2001, brent pope had one in an AIL final - hopefully it will be a one off- shame it was so quick after his long awaited comback.
It reminds me in a way of the Henri incident - robbie keane got caught a couple of times handling the ball in the box in that game if the ref had missed one and it had led to a goal for Ireland - what would the Irish fans reaction have been?

Cpt_Blackbeard · 13-12-2010 6:55pm

Luckycharm wrote: »

POC had a red mist moment like Heaslip in NZ

I wouldn't put those 2 incidents in the same bracket. There was malice in what Heaslip did, POC was more of a "get the f*ck off me" moment. (Anyone who sees this as a provincial attack can ignore it and try not give excuses for the ban-hammer to come out...please

)

POC's saving grace besides a great disiplinary until now, is that he made no attempt to use the elbow and hence imo. didn't mean to cause harm. It was the shrug of a fired up giant

Edit: You didn't really compare then other that refer them as moments of stupidity so my first comments might not be relevant depending on how you intended it to come across.

Luckycharm · 13-12-2010 6:58pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I wouldn't put those 2 incidents in the same bracket. There was malice in what Heaslip did, POC was more of a "get the f*ck off me" moment. (Anyone who sees this as a provincial attack can ignore it and try not get the thread locked...please)

POC's saving grace besides a great disiplinary until now, is that he made no attempt to use the elbow and hence imo. didn't mean to cause harm. It was the shrug of a fired up giant

You could say Heaslip was trying to clear the ruck but totally inexcusable and unlike him. If POC didn't mean to cause harm he would hit downwards at the guys arms where he was grabbing him which you see all the time. Both totally out of character.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 13-12-2010 7:03pm

Luckycharm wrote: »

It probally happens in all matches to a degree - players getting their jerseys tugged back when chasing kicks - in the Toulon v london Irish game - sackey clearly got tackled without the ball which would def had led to a try 3 ms short of the tryline - ref missed it. POC had a red mist moment like Heaslip in NZ, eric Miller had one in a Celtic League final back in 2001, brent pope had one in an AIL final - hopefully it will be a one off- shame it was so quick after his long awaited comback.
It reminds me in a way of the Henri incident - robbie keane got caught a couple of times handling the ball in the box in that game if the ref had missed one and it had led to a goal for Ireland - what would the Irish fans reaction have been?

It does happen in all matches. Munster seemed to have a strategy of holding back Phillips all game to slow him down, DOC gave away a penalty for it, but the ref/linesmen should have called fore penalties for the incidents because the Preys were taking out the support runners all game too.

BoarHunter · 13-12-2010 7:17pm

straight red totally justified for me ... kids watching this MUST be given clear signs that these kind of behaviour has nothing to do on a rugby pitch.

He was the first guy to put opponents out of their nerves before ( Cudmore incident ) so you have to accept when it happens to you.

Lawstudent1 · 13-12-2010 7:33pm

As someone who competes in combative sport I'd like to chime in here with my experience to correct a few people. Some posters are accusing Thomas of diving because (A) It wasn't an elbow it was forearm and (B) It only connected with the mouth i.e jaw area.

Just FYI, A forearm will generate a lot more force than an elbow and a forearm with that kind of momentum behind it connecting with the chin area will cause the legs to buckle. If anything Thomas would have been acting up had he fallen to the floor with an elbow to any other area of the face!

If you connect a strong blow on the area O'Connell hit then you're likely to at the very least cause someone to fall to the floor. If you were to factor in the fact that O'Connell is 18.5 stone and had a complete full swing of the forearm then I'd almost gaurantee the victim's legs would buckle. Whilst its true that the other player is almost as big as O'Connell the fact remains that when somone the size of O'Connell connects with that momentum and in the jaw area its going to bring someone to the floor. I was actually surpised Thomas wasn't KO'd from it if anything.

Too many armchair warriors on this forum giving completely wrong opinions in an area they obviously know nothing about.

My opinion : Straight Red, malice intended as he knew Thomas was behind him and after the whistle to make things worse. If it was a French or English player you'd be screaming for his head.

backrow67n8 · 13-12-2010 7:34pm

BoarHunter wrote: »

straight red totally justified for me ... kids watching this MUST be given clear signs that these kind of behaviour has nothing to do on a rugby pitch.

He was the first guy to put opponents out of their nerves before ( Cudmore incident ) so you have to accept when it happens to you.

Don't getya what you mean?

BoarHunter · 13-12-2010 8:05pm

backrow67n8 wrote: »

Don't getya what you mean?

means that POC is no stranger to what the Osprey player was doing to him and he should know how to deal with this situation. He has been on the other guys skin many times. Him and DOC actually have been champions for teasing the nerves of their opponents for many years. It's part of the game but i know POC is better than what he showed yesterday.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 13-12-2010 8:25pm

Lawstudent1 wrote: »

Just FYI, A forearm will generate a lot more force than an elbow and a forearm with that kind of momentum behind it connecting with the chin area will cause the legs to buckle. If anything Thomas would have been acting up had he fallen to the floor with an elbow to any other area of the face!

The rest of the post are just opinions I don't agree with and there is no need for me to get into it, but the piece in bold above is not true

Sure the forearm will be moving at a greater speed and have a greater mass, but an elbow would cause more damage because of its greater surface area. A simple example would be a 16st guy stepping on your foot in a club and a 8st girl doing the same in her favourite heels. The girl (from experience

) will cause much greater pain because the area the force is being applied to.

There was a great force in POC's arm and I have no problem with Thomas falling to the ground. Him clutching his forehead when he went down did look like theatrics though, maybe it was from a whiplash effect (and it could well be) but it looked like play acting to me.

Calling it malicious is just ignoring the incident completely imo.

mathepac · 13-12-2010 8:26pm

Lawstudent1 wrote: »

As someone who competes in combative sport I'd like to chime in here with my experience to correct a few people. Some posters are accusing Thomas of diving because (A) It wasn't an elbow it was forearm and (B) It only connected with the mouth i.e jaw area.

Just FYI, A forearm will generate a lot more force than an elbow and a forearm with that kind of momentum behind it connecting with the chin area will cause the legs to buckle. If anything Thomas would have been acting up had he fallen to the floor with an elbow to any other area of the face!

If you connect a strong blow on the area O'Connell hit then you're likely to at the very least cause someone to fall to the floor. If you were to factor in the fact that O'Connell is 18.5 stone and had a complete full swing of the forearm then I'd almost gaurantee the victim's legs would buckle. Whilst its true that the other player is almost as big as O'Connell the fact remains that when somone the size of O'Connell connects with that momentum and in the jaw area its going to bring someone to the floor. I was actually surpised Thomas wasn't KO'd from it if anything.
....

Your post lacks the physiological insight required to understand and explain what it is that causes a KO, concussion or loss of conciousness and coordination consequent to a blow to the head. It also now appears that Thomas did not receive a blow to the head or sustain the injury he was subsequently treated for in the incident with Paulie.

Lawstudent1 wrote: »

... Too many armchair warriors on this forum giving completely wrong opinions in an area they obviously know nothing about...

That's a rather ironic comment and also contrary to the forum charter - comment on the posts, not on the posters.

Benny Cake · 13-12-2010 8:29pm

Lawstudent1 wrote: »

As someone who competes in combative sport I'd like to chime in here with my experience to correct a few people. Some posters are accusing Thomas of diving because (A) It wasn't an elbow it was forearm and (B) It only connected with the mouth i.e jaw area.

Just FYI, A forearm will generate a lot more force than an elbow and a forearm with that kind of momentum behind it connecting with the chin area will cause the legs to buckle. If anything Thomas would have been acting up had he fallen to the floor with an elbow to any other area of the face!

If you connect a strong blow on the area O'Connell hit then you're likely to at the very least cause someone to fall to the floor. If you were to factor in the fact that O'Connell is 18.5 stone and had a complete full swing of the forearm then I'd almost gaurantee the victim's legs would buckle. Whilst its true that the other player is almost as big as O'Connell the fact remains that when somone the size of O'Connell connects with that momentum and in the jaw area its going to bring someone to the floor. I was actually surpised Thomas wasn't KO'd from it if anything.

Too many armchair warriors on this forum giving completely wrong opinions in an area they obviously know nothing about.

My opinion : Straight Red, malice intended as he knew Thomas was behind him and after the whistle to make things worse. If it was a French or English player you'd be screaming for his head.

All very well put but just 1 question, if he was struck on the jaw, why was he clutching his forehead? Part of the professional game is exaggerating an injury to remove an opponent from the field and gain an advantage for your team...
All this longwinded bull is meaningless when you look at the simple facts:
1. The ref gave a red because from his angle it looked like an elbow
2. POC should know better than to swing out recklessly like that, he left the ref no option, regardless of wether or not there was intent...
3. Thomas did the professional thing and made sure a valuable member of a rival team would not only miss the rest of the match, but in all probability the return leg next week.....
The rest of this thread should be dedicated to Irish fans lamenting O'Connells stupidity because 1 of our few world class players, who is in serious need of game-time, could miss 2/4/6/8 weeks.... That's the real story.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 13-12-2010 8:31pm

BoarHunter wrote: »

means that POC is no stranger to what the Osprey player was doing to him and he should know how to deal with this situation. He has been on the other guys skin many times. Him and DOC actually have been champions for teasing the nerves of their opponents for many years. It's part of the game but i know POC is better than what he showed yesterday.

How does that relate to the Cudmore incident? His fight with Cudmore showed that he always aware of the ramifictions of his actions as he made sure the lines man knew exactly what was happening...

BoarHunter · 13-12-2010 8:34pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

How does that relate to the Cudmore incident? His fight with Cudmore showed that he always aware of the ramifictions of his actions as he made sure the lines man knew exactly what was happening...

Cudmore was not out of controle for nothing

someone had to activate him. POC and DOC knew who to target as Cudmore is famous for being weak and even though he advised the line man that didn't allow POC to punch the guy on the ground.

I can talk to you abou this on IM if you want as this has nothing to do here and i'm sorry i have brought that up.

Trojan · 13-12-2010 8:43pm

This thread is about POC and his red card. Any further mention of Heaslip will result in a ban.

kensutz · 13-12-2010 9:05pm

Hearing on Thursday.

Teej · 13-12-2010 9:24pm

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/news/13329.php

"Under the IRB Recommended Sanctions for Offences Committed within the Playing Enclosure, Law 10.4 (a) - Striking an opponent with a hand, arm or fist carries the following penalties:

Lower End: 2 weeks
Middle Range: 5 weeks
Top End: 8+ weeks
Maximum Sanction: 52 weeks"

Presume these can be reduced if POC is considered to have a good prior disciplinary record. Having the hearing on Thursday night doesn't allow much time for Munster to make an appeal if are unhappy with the verdict.

On the elbow or arm damage debate - a top end elbow strike warrants 9+ weeks which I guess means IRB consider it marginally worse

Cpt_Blackbeard · 13-12-2010 9:30pm

I'd say that it could come in the middle range and be lowered to 2/3 weeks for previous record, unless a lack of intend warrants 2/3 weeks and it is lowered to a week. I can't see it being in the high range tbh.

Anything higher than the 2 weeks Mealumu got for a flying headbutt would be ruled out if there were any consistencies in how the laws are applied, but Mealumu is a starting All Black, POC plays for Munster...

sock puppet · 13-12-2010 9:50pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I'd say that it could come in the middle range and be lowered to 2/3 weeks for previous record, unless a lack of intend warrants 2/3 weeks and it is lowered to a week. I can't see it being in the high range tbh.

Anything higher than the 2 weeks Mealumu got for a flying headbutt would be ruled out if there were any consistencies in how the laws are applied, but Mealumu is a starting All Black, POC plays for Munster...

We've probably supporters of every rugby playing nation in the world claiming bias against their team in the forum at this stage. It must be that the ERC and IRB just hate every team... or maybe they're not biased at all.

RuggieBear · 13-12-2010 9:59pm

erc tend to hand down much stiffer punishments...i wouldn't hold out much hope for a short ban. if it was the magners league or the IRB (both of whom are far too lenient tbh) he'd probably avoid suspension.

Paulw · 13-12-2010 10:15pm

From seeing the videos, and stills, and knowing the ERC, I'd say he'll get 4-5 week ban.

Unlikely he'll get much less. Probably the best he can hope for is a 3 week ban.

RMD · 13-12-2010 10:38pm

Personally, I think it was nothing more than a yellow, a stupid moment of hotheadedness but not a red. I certainly don't think it deserves a ban. If POC really wanted to cause damage he'd turn around and hit him, not hit him with the forearm like that. Due to this high profile though, I wouldn't be surprised if he was used as an example though in the hearing.

thehighground · 13-12-2010 10:46pm

BoarHunter wrote: »

Cudmore was not out of controle for nothing someone had to activate him. POC and DOC knew who to target as Cudmore is famous for being weak and even though he advised the line man that didn't allow POC to punch the guy on the ground.

I can talk to you abou this on IM if you want as this has nothing to do here and i'm sorry i have brought that up.

I think you should have a look at this again. Cudmore lays into Marcus Horan who has just tackled him before POC (or DOC) went anywhere near him.

PS - Cudmore is known for having an extremely poor disciplinary record - not being 'weak'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp5W_cwNnPo

thehighground · 13-12-2010 11:00pm

Lawstudent1 wrote: »

As someone who competes in combative sport I'd like to chime in here with my experience to correct a few people. Some posters are accusing Thomas of diving because (A) It wasn't an elbow it was forearm and (B) It only connected with the mouth i.e jaw area.

Just FYI, A forearm will generate a lot more force than an elbow and a forearm with that kind of momentum behind it connecting with the chin area will cause the legs to buckle. If anything Thomas would have been acting up had he fallen to the floor with an elbow to any other area of the face!

If you connect a strong blow on the area O'Connell hit then you're likely to at the very least cause someone to fall to the floor. If you were to factor in the fact that O'Connell is 18.5 stone and had a complete full swing of the forearm then I'd almost gaurantee the victim's legs would buckle. Whilst its true that the other player is almost as big as O'Connell the fact remains that when somone the size of O'Connell connects with that momentum and in the jaw area its going to bring someone to the floor. I was actually surpised Thomas wasn't KO'd from it if anything.

Too many armchair warriors on this forum giving completely wrong opinions in an area they obviously know nothing about.

My opinion : Straight Red, malice intended as he knew Thomas was behind him and after the whistle to make things worse. If it was a French or English player you'd be screaming for his head.

What are your views on this incident? (Julian White on Mal O'Kelly 2008 HCup).

White got a yellow card in the match and a 5 week suspension from the ERC!

"Mr. White admitted he was guilty of foul play in that he had punched Malcolm O'Kelly.

After considering the evidence available, the independent Disciplinary Committee determined that the offence was of mid-range in the level of seriousness. Having taken into account any mitigating and aggravating factors the Committee suspended the player for a period of five (5) weeks backdated from the week commencing Monday, 21 January, 2008, and running up to and including Sunday, 24 February, 2008."

Go to about 1.40 secs for a close-up of what happened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdNObgWW3jY

BoardsMember · 13-12-2010 11:05pm

thehighground wrote: »

What are your views on this incident? (Julian White on Mal O'Kelly 2008 HCup).

White got a yellow card in the match and a 5 week suspension from the ERC!

"Mr. White admitted he was guilty of foul play in that he had punched Malcolm O'Kelly.

After considering the evidence available, the independent Disciplinary Committee determined that the offence was of mid-range in the level of seriousness. Having taken into account any mitigating and aggravating factors the Committee suspended the player for a period of five (5) weeks backdated from the week commencing Monday, 21 January, 2008, and running up to and including Sunday, 24 February, 2008."

Go to about 1.40 secs for a close-up of what happened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdNObgWW3jY

All things being equal, and if you use that as the yardstick, POC should not get a ban. White went to town on him in the maul, and then had another good dig afterwards too.

13-12-2010 11:09pm

All that shows is that White was let away far too kindly.

We shouldn't be trying to increase the level of thuggery required to earn a ban. We should be trying to enforce the basic rules and regulations with regards to violence as sternly as possible, and extrapolate bans such as the above incident to way over the "minimum" sanctions.

thehighground · 13-12-2010 11:26pm

Deleted User wrote: »

All that shows is that White was let away far too kindly.

We shouldn't be trying to increase the level of thuggery required to earn a ban. We should be trying to enforce the basic rules and regulations with regards to violence as sternly as possible, and extrapolate bans such as the above incident to way over the "minimum" sanctions.

It also suggests that Berdos has it in for POC. White gets a yellow for that attack on Mal and POC gets a red card!

Its up to the Disciplinary Committee (who is made up of experts) to set the standard first of all and then implement it consistently.

dermy · 13-12-2010 11:32pm

Precedence is everything, in this and in courts of law.

For the above White incident and for the Cudmore incident- Whatever about how it started or who started it, PoC delivered multiple direct and forceful punches to the face of Cudmore while Cudmore was in a headlock. Every one of which was worse than this hit. What was the deliberation? a yellow card for Poc and no ban.

and keep it in perspective- it was not an 'elbow smash'. It was a forearm, even wrist, smack on the jaw/neck. It was delivered above chest height, backwards, in about an 80 degree arc with no follow through and a limp elbow. He wasn't even properly looking at where the guy was.

I'm not saying he tickled him, I'm just saying this was probably a fraction of what PoC could deliver if he felt like it. And Thomas made the most out of it, possibly knowing that he could take out a key player for not just one but two major fixtures between the two sides. Which, if true, is far more disgusting if you ask me.

Also Berdos is a poor ref, just ask Brendan Venter (if he'll answer...) or even Joe Schmidt for their reactions to the same game he reffed.

Shelflife · 13-12-2010 11:51pm

A couple of things here, some posters are clinging to the hope that berdos has it in for poc, that it was a wrist to the upperchest area, that he wasnt looking where he hit, that he was provoked etc etc.

The appeals committe will review the available footage and will see poc swing and make contact with an opponent, they will see that it was a deliberate striking action and that it was dangerous.

fwiw when i saw it first i thought it was a yellow and that the red was over kill, when i saw the replays on here and saw that he cocked his arm and swung with intent and made a good connection i changed my mind.

did thomas milk it? not sure maybe he stayed down longer then he had to, but the fact of the matter is , he got a right clatter and wasnt expecting it, berdos had made up his mind at that stage , he was carded for the action not the result of the action.

5 weeks i think, maybe less for no previous.

thehighground · 14-12-2010 12:46am

Shelflife wrote: »

A couple of things here, some posters are clinging to the hope that berdos has it in for poc, that it was a wrist to the upperchest area, that he wasnt looking where he hit, that he was provoked etc etc.

The appeals committe will review the available footage and will see poc swing and make contact with an opponent, they will see that it was a deliberate striking action and that it was dangerous.

fwiw when i saw it first i thought it was a yellow and that the red was over kill, when i saw the replays on here and saw that he cocked his arm and swung with intent and made a good connection i changed my mind.

did thomas milk it? not sure maybe he stayed down longer then he had to, but the fact of the matter is , he got a right clatter and wasnt expecting it, berdos had made up his mind at that stage , he was carded for the action not the result of the action.

5 weeks i think, maybe less for no previous.

What good is a hope that Berdos has it in for POC? POC has already got a red card & has been cited!

Just compare the two incidents (Berdos was the ref. in both). In one, 19 stone prop Julian White lay into 18 stone Mal O'Kelly (who seemed to be able to withstand SEVERAL punches to his face without collapsing into a heap on the ground) got a yellow card and a five week ban. The fact that Mal was pulling at White was taken into consideration.

POC swings his arm because he is being held and gets Thomas in the mouth. He is red carded.

Do you really think that POC/Thomas was as serious as White/Mal and both deserved 5 weeks.

By the way, Cudmore got 5 weeks for hitting a defenseless player on the ground and continuing to fight with POC (and he is a serial offender). Cudmore's offense was considred to be "mid-range in the level of seriousness."

Shelflife · 14-12-2010 1:00am

Its not about comparing white and poc, fwiw white is a thug and a year would be too short for him.

What good is a hope that Berdos has it in for POC? POC has already got a red card & has been cited!

im not saying that , some posters seem to be using it as an excuse or in hope of leniency.

the appaels commiitte will simply look at the footage and then decide what punishment fits that crime, they wont be looking at suspensions from previous years and using that to compare with.

im not saying he deserves 5 weeks , 2 would be adequate imo , but i think he may get 5.

thehighground · 14-12-2010 1:21am

Shelflife wrote: »

Its not about comparing white and poc, fwiw white is a thug and a year would be too short for him.

What good is a hope that Berdos has it in for POC? POC has already got a red card & has been cited!

im not saying that , some posters seem to be using it as an excuse or in hope of leniency.

the appaels commiitte will simply look at the footage and then decide what punishment fits that crime, they wont be looking at suspensions from previous years and using that to compare with.

im not saying he deserves 5 weeks , 2 would be adequate imo , but i think he may get 5.

I would hope they work off precedents set. And previous record does have a bearing. For instance, Cudmore got an extra week because he had previous.

Worth reading some of their decisons here. Its very much like a court of law.

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/news/disciplinary_news.php

POC's Red Card.++ Mod Warning. Read OP++

Comments