Catholic persecution complex

fisgon · 10-11-2014 12:18pm #1

We are seeing this more and more now that catholicism is losing power and influence, claims that Catholics are being discriminated against, that they are being oppressed. We have all heard this from the usual suspects...

The latest is claims that catholics are being oppressed in Irish universities...

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/catholic-fear-and-loathing-in-our-universities-30729163.html

One student says "We don't have freedom of speech or the right to association, it's an absolute oppression."

This, of course, is utter nonsense, no-one is stopping catholics from saying what they want, or from meeting when they want. There is no oppression, there is simply argument, criticism, and a refusal to give special treatment to the religious, just because they are religious.

From my primary school days, I remember all of the stories about Christian martyrs, believers that suffered and died for their faith. Of course we never heard about the thousands and thousands killed by Christianity for many reasons, or the multitudes tortured or murdered by the Inquisition.

The fact is, some religious people LOVE to feel oppressed. It makes them feel special, as if they are standing up against the crowd. It would be interesting to chart all of these claims, and hold them up to scrutiny.

robindch · 10-11-2014 12:37pm

fisgon wrote: »

From my primary school days, I remember all of the stories about Christian martyrs, believers that suffered and died for their faith. Of course we never heard about the thousands and thousands killed by Christianity for many reasons, or the multitudes tortured or murdered by the Inquisition.

The persecution complex goes back centuries, perhaps to the very beginning of the church. Sez Gibbon:

Chapter 16, Closing Paragraph wrote:

We shall conclude this chapter by a melancholy truth which obtrudes itself on the reluctant mind; that, even admitting, without hesitation or inquiry, all that history has recorded, or devotion has feigned, on the subject of martyrdoms, it must still be acknowledged that the Christians, in the course of their intestine dissensions, have inflicted far greater severities on each other than they had experienced from the zeal of infidels. During the ages of ignorance which followed the subversion of the Roman empire in the West, the bishops of the Imperial city extended their dominion over the laity as well as clergy of the Latin church. The fabric of superstition which they had erected, and which might long have defied the feeble efforts of reason, was at length assaulted by a crowd of daring fanatics, who, from the twelfth to the sixteenth century, assumed the popular character of
reformers. The church of Rome defended by violence the empire which she had acquired by fraud; a system of peace and benevolence was soon disgraced by the proscriptions, wars, massacres, and the institution of the holy office. And as the reformers were animated by the love of civil as well as of religious freedom, the Catholic princes connected their own interest with that of the clergy, and enforced by fire and the sword the terrors of spiritual censures. In the Netherlands alone more than one hundred thousand of the subjects of Charles V. are said to have suffered by the hand of the executioner; and this extraordinary number is attested by Grotius, a man of genius and learning, who preserved his moderation amidst the fury of contending sects, and who composed the annals of his own age and country at a time when the invention of printing had facilitated the means of intelligence and increased the danger of detection. If we are obliged to submit our belief to the authority of Grotius, it must be allowed that the number of Protestants who were executed in a single province and a single: reign far exceeded that of the primitive martyrs in the space of three centuries and of the Roman empire. But if the improbability of the fact itself should prevail over the weight of evidence; if Grotius should be convicted of exaggerating the merit and sufferings of the reformers; we shall be naturally led to inquire what confidence can be placed in the doubtful and imperfect monuments of ancient credulity; what degree of credit can be assigned to a courtly bishop and a passionate declaimer, who, under the protection of Constantine, enjoyed the exclusive privilege of recording the persecutions inflicted on the Christians by the vanquished rivals or disregarded predecessors of their gracious sovereign.

The "courtly bishop and passionate declaimer" Gibbon refers to is Eusebius of Caesarea who wrote a Church History which frequently reads less as history and more as panegyric.

Squeedily Spooch · 10-11-2014 12:56pm

Yeah but are they Catholic now or "Catholic", cos there's a big difference..

PopePalpatine · 10-11-2014 2:13pm

A fiver says this will get picked up by the Ionanists within 24 hours.

Zillah · 10-11-2014 2:15pm

Mostly twaddle.

The pro-life society is an interesting one. If they really have 200 signatures, assuming everything is above board, I don't think it is appropriate to block them. As rabidly pro-choice as I am, I don't like when anyone abuses their position to enforce a personal view. I don't think student unions should be pitching in on these topics; a student union exists as much for pro-life students as anyone else.

As for the rest of it: If you don't want to be called a bigot then stop demonising gay and transgender people.

Anyway, look at that smug prick.

hfallada · 10-11-2014 2:21pm

Anyone can form a society if they have enough support. Trinity has a handful of societies that are unusal like their is a Hebrew society for Jews, an Arabic or Islamic society and there is even a cancer support society. Its hard to argue that universities are tolerant of others with the wide range of societies and the fact that people who go to university are usual the most tolerant in society.

Most young people have no issues with any religion or race. But when a society is trying to restrict womens rights and using religion as an excuse, that's when young people draw the line.

super_furry · 10-11-2014 2:21pm

So it's basically, "we're being oppressed because we're trying to oppress people!"

shruikan2553 · 10-11-2014 2:45pm

super_furry wrote: »

So it's basically, "we're being oppressed because we're trying to oppress people!"

Pretty much. They claim that they are labeled as being homophobic or bigots for being catholic when that's not true. They are being labeled as those things by being against homosexuality. I think I might have brought this up before in a thread, there is a person who wants to say " you are an asshole, I don't like you and want you no where near me" and then when you get mad at them they claim you are oppressing them.

I find it strange that a Christian society is not good enough for Catholics but then comments on Muslim societies. He does know that Muslim is a broad term like Christian right?

Pherekydes · 10-11-2014 2:49pm

Here's some of the societies active in Maynooth:

Amnesty Society amnesty@nuimsu.com
Christian Union christianunion@nuimsu.com
Feminist Society femsocnuim@gmail.com
JPII Theological jp2@nuimsu.com
Mental Health mhs@nuimsu.com
Pro-Life prolife@nuimsu.com
St Vincent de Paul svp@nuimsu.com

Guys like Fr Barrins are just dishonest whingers.

Links234 · 10-11-2014 3:25pm

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Pretty much. They claim that they are labeled as being homophobic or bigots for being catholic when that's not true. They are being labeled as those things by being against homosexuality. I think I might have brought this up before in a thread, there is a person who wants to say " you are an asshole, I don't like you and want you no where near me" and then when you get mad at them they claim you are oppressing them.

Exactly this. There are plenty of catholics and people of other religious affiliations who are not homophobic or hateful and there are even many LGBT catholics in this country, homophobia is not synonymous with practicing a religion. What they are trying to do is paint their bigotry as an essential part of their faith, then claim discrimination against their faith for criticism of their bigotry. It's a particularly disgusting display of dishonesty.

And something that these kinds of folks push a lot, is this idea fear and paranoia of "labelling" someone as something, eg:

"It's discrimination and it keeps people silent by using very evocative terms like homophobic and bigot . . . it's very hard to fight that because once you're labelled, it seems to stick," said Fr Barrins.

Oh dear me, someone called me a bigot, help I'm being oppressed!

Let me just illustrate just how much that statement is smoke and mirrors with just one example. The Westboro Baptist Church are pretty damn homophobic, I think we could all agree on that right? Downright vicious homophobes. But watch an interview with or read something from some of the ex-westboro folks like Nate Phelps or Lauren Drain, and you find they're pretty god damn awesome people. Has this "label" followed them?

Could it be, that it's not some kind of scarlet letter or black spot, it's merely calling someone out for what they're doing?

lazybones32 · 10-11-2014 9:21pm

Zillah wrote: »

...Anyway, look at that smug prick.

I 'thanked' solely for this line

The Black Oil · 10-11-2014 11:10pm

I agree Zillah re the college society angle, you have to allow a range of views.

I caught the Independent article yesterday. Really, it's just an extension of the 'deliberate attempt to shut down debate' narrative that's now a standard defence in some quarters.

Hotblack Desiato · 10-11-2014 11:12pm

Typical Sindo, spin a load of nonsense based on nothing at all into an 'article' and stick a controversial headline on it and bingo.

So not many university students want to listen to the catholic message these days? Who knew! It was so much easier in the good old days when you could shame people into conformity, wasn't it!

Brian Shanahan · 11-11-2014 4:12pm

shruikan2553 wrote: »

I think I might have brought this up before in a thread, there is a person who wants to say " you are an asshole, I don't like you and want you no where near me" and then when you get mad at them they claim you are oppressing them.

I have a strange feeling that this was in the Jawn Waah-waah-waahters thread.

Vivisectus · 13-11-2014 2:51pm

Every time a privileged majority is required to curb one of those privileges, members of that majority seem to experience it as oppression.

Hence all those poor males being oppressed by rabid feminists, the reaction in the southern US when they were required to stop segregation, and, more humorously, the perception that Christians in the US are the most oppressed group around.

Certain reactionary conservative Catholic groups have taken to this kind of thinking with gusto. The Iona institute frequently amuses the UN by trying to make claims of human rights violations. Generally the "rights" being curbed turn out to be the right to treat people differently on religious grounds, in situations where we would not tolerate that kind of discrimination for any other reason.

And let us not forget that here in Ireland, calling someone who wants to treat gay people differently for the sole reason that they are gay a bigot is a terrible act of oppression! At least, this it what our dear Breda of Iona fame happily claims, blissfully unaware of just how farcical such a claim is. Poor little middle class white woman.

Amazing really when you think of it. A vast majority, members of a single, well funded global organization with branch offices manned by full-time employees in every village and hamlet in the country and a world-wide membership that runs into the billions, is oppressed by a disparate group, without a single organization and without any real shared political agenda.

PopePalpatine · 13-11-2014 2:55pm

Vivisectus wrote: »

Every time a privileged majority is required to curb one of those privileges, members of that majority seem to experience it as oppression.

Case in point: the last time Educate Together was mentioned in t'udder forum.

kylith · 13-11-2014 8:49pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Case in point: the last time Educate Together was mentioned in t'udder forum.

Let me guess: evil godless organisation wanting to brainwash children and steal their souls to sell them to the dark lord Abetoth as they bathe in the blood of the righteous?

PopePalpatine · 13-11-2014 8:56pm

More like "majority rules, so shut the f*ck up", except far more pompous and verbose.

RikuoAmero · 17-11-2014 10:38am

Links234 wrote: »

Exactly this. There are plenty of catholics and people of other religious affiliations who are not homophobic or hateful and there are even many LGBT catholics in this country, homophobia is not synonymous with practicing a religion. What they are trying to do is paint their bigotry as an essential part of their faith, then claim discrimination against their faith for criticism of their bigotry. It's a particularly disgusting display of dishonesty.

Correct me if I'm wrong please, but last I checked, being anti homosexuality is part and parcel of being RCC. Yes, I understand there are many members of the RCC who are either LGBT or LGBT-friendly, but RCC teachings include not allowing homosexuals to marry in a church, among other things.
If you're LGBT or LGBT friendly, in my mind, then you can't actually justify calling yourself RCC. To me, it's as insane as saying "I'm black, but a member of the Ku Klux Klan" (and yes, I have heard that the KKK are allowing blacks and other groups in now).

shruikan2553 · 17-11-2014 11:27am

RikuoAmero wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong please, but last I checked, being anti homosexuality is part and parcel of being RCC. Yes, I understand there are many members of the RCC who are either LGBT or LGBT-friendly, but RCC teachings include not allowing homosexuals to marry in a church, among other things.
If you're LGBT or LGBT friendly, in my mind, then you can't actually justify calling yourself RCC. To me, it's as insane as saying "I'm black, but a member of the Ku Klux Klan" (and yes, I have heard that the KKK are allowing blacks and other groups in now).

True and I would agree, why be part of an organisation that hate you, but you have to remember that Catholicism in Ireland is a special half assed version which includes people that don't even believe in god.

Absolam · 17-11-2014 12:45pm

RikuoAmero wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong please, but last I checked, being anti homosexuality is part and parcel of being RCC. Yes, I understand there are many members of the RCC who are either LGBT or LGBT-friendly, but RCC teachings include not allowing homosexuals to marry in a church, among other things.
If you're LGBT or LGBT friendly, in my mind, then you can't actually justify calling yourself RCC. To me, it's as insane as saying "I'm black, but a member of the Ku Klux Klan" (and yes, I have heard that the KKK are allowing blacks and other groups in now).

I think the current teaching is along the lines of 'love the sinner, abhor the sin'.
Which in short means the RCC isn't anti homosexuality, it's anti homosexual acts.
So you can be LGBT or LGBT friendly and RCC, you just can't do anything your hetero RCC friends wouldn't do until they're married

RikuoAmero · 17-11-2014 12:55pm

Absolam wrote: »

I think the current teaching is along the lines of 'love the sinner, abhor the sin'.
Which in short means the RCC isn't anti homosexuality, it's anti homosexual acts.
So you can be LGBT or LGBT friendly and RCC, you just can't do anything your hetero RCC friends wouldn't do until they're married

And when you look at the acts, you find out that there is no harm caused in them. So this then shows that what the RCC is teaching is that they are not measuring where certain "sins" go on the scale of good-will or benefit to humankind, but of what seems to me to be "Big Chief in the Sky doesn't like X, we don't like X either, but to try and spread this message, we have to dress it up in PR speak".

robindch · 17-11-2014 1:02pm

fisgon wrote: »

[...] claims that Catholics are [...] being oppressed [...]

Here's a related story - this time from Kenya where the country's catholic bishops claimed last month that the anti-Tetanus vaccine is actually a population-control program targetting women of child-bearing age. In Kenya, the RCC claims to control "58 hospitals, 83 health centers, 311 dispensaries and 17 medical training institutions" so this kind of paranoia can have a real-world impact.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/nov/12/kenyas-catholic-bishops-warn-tetanus-vaccine-is-di/

Washington Times wrote:

Kenya’s Catholic bishops are urging citizens to steer clear of a tetanus vaccine that they argue is a sterilization program in disguise.

The bishops, appearing Tuesday before Kenya’s parliamentary health committee, said that an independent testing of the government-touted tetanus vaccine, targeted at women in the reproductive ages of 14 to 49, revealed it was laced with a birth control hormone called beta human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG), the D.C.-based Religion News Service reported.

“We are calling on all Kenyans to avoid the tetanus vaccination campaign because we are convinced it is indeed a disguised population control program,” said Bishop Paul Kariuki, chairman of the Kenya Conference of Catholic Bishops’ health committee. The bishops also wondered why the campaign was being rolled out in phases and in secrecy, RNS reported.

“To our surprise, the Ministry of Health confirmed it had not tested the vaccine, having trusted it, since it originated from WHO (World Health Organization), a credible organization in matters of health,” Bishop Kariuki said. The World Health Organization and UNICEF have issued a statement saying allegations of HCG are unfounded. The groups insist the vaccine, which has been used by 130 million women in 52 countries, is safe.

“These allegations are not backed up by evidence, and risk negatively impacting national immunizations programs for children and women,” the WHO and UNICEF statement said, RNS reported. Government officials say they had samples of the vaccines provided by WHO and the United Nations tested at Nairobi’s Lancet Laboratories and in South Africa for the birth control hormone and found no evidence of HCG, World magazine reported.

The "Catholic Health Commission" of Kenya released a statement on the topic last month:

http://www.kccb.or.ke/home/news-2/press-statement-5/

nozzferrahhtoo · 17-11-2014 1:26pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

More like "majority rules, so shut the f*ck up", except far more pompous and verbose.

A mentality I have been coming across more and more in the last year or so on forums. I have had more posts in the last 6 months essentially saying "There is more of us than you so shut up and go away" than I have in the 10 years before added together.

Enough that I am wondering are the religious starting to get shrill and desperate, and simply need us to stop making the noises we have been making. Which of course only makes me want to keep making them.

Here is a particularly nice one sent publicly on another forum as a nice example:

Unfortunately for you...you're spitting into a strong wind...especially in places like the United States.

Just look around...there's a church, synagogue, or temple on every other corner...and they are exempt from paying taxes. Since the Europeans took the country from the Native People (NOT cool!) it was from that point on, FOUNDED on Religious Principles...read The Constitution, and The Declaration of Independance...they've got "CREATOR" & "GOD" right in them. Many of our laws have been based on the ethics of various religious. In every government building, and on every piece of our currency...EVERY coin and EVERY bill...is written "In God We Trust"...TRILLIONS of pieces of currency. It's such a part of this country, it wouldn't even be this country without it. And beyond that the WORLD is influenced by it...why do you think it's "2014"? It's our "way of life", our recent history, and our culture...that's just the way it IS.

Please don't take this as an insult, because there is no insult intended---This country is not going to be a very comfortable place for an Atheist...MOF they will be constantly aggravated (I know from experience). People that have an aversion to the heat would avoid or leave Central America...People that have an aversion to the cold would avoid or leave Iceland...And you wouldn't see many Jews sticking around or going to Iran. Some places are just a "better fit". You are NEVER going to change the base culture of this country to much of a degree. You'll change a law here or there, but you'll still have to look at lots of buildings with crosses & stars on them that you pick up the tax burden they don't...see the title GOD (and the proclamation that WE trust in Him) written on most things relative to our government and even carry it on your person with your money...listen to "God Bless America" belted out at public events, and the Pledge of Allegiance (one nation under GOD) being recited...and though we typically only do the 1st verse, check out the last verse of our National Anthem (The Star Spangled Banner). I could go on and on...But the point is...it is not just the general population, but it's the country itself, including the government, that is intrinsically religious. They promote religion and help it flourish by even exempting it from taxes! And I don't think that, short of a big asteroid, that will change much over the next few hundred years, if ever. If an Atheist is going to stick around the U.S.A. they better learn to not let religion, or religious people bother them or they will be just about constantly aggravated...and trying to change it will be a lesson in futility and a complete and total waste of their time & effort.

I would suggest to Atheists, if they are having trouble "coping" with the prolific influence of religion in the country where they now reside...they might seriously consider moving to a more secular country that has a society and culture more compatible with their mindset. Otherwise they are going to be all twisted up and miserable. Leave the ultra heavy majority Theist societies to the Theists, and go to where you will "fit in" better...you'll be more content...and so will the Theists.

RikuoAmero · 17-11-2014 1:31pm

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

A mentality I have been coming across more and more in the last year or so on forums. I have had more posts in the last 6 months essentially saying "There is more of us than you so shut up and go away" than I have in the 10 years before added together.

Enough that I am wondering are the religious starting to get shrill and desperate, and simply need us to stop making the noises we have been making. Which of course only makes me want to keep making them.

Here is a particularly nice one sent publicly on another forum as a nice example:

Last I checked, a good proportion of the US Founding Fathers were deists/atheist/agnostic (grouped together like this to contrast with christian). As for In God We Trust being on currency, that wasn't added to the US currency until the 1950s.

Vivisectus · 17-11-2014 2:06pm

I love how these Catholic bishops are puzzled as to why only women from 14 to 49 are targeted by a program to prevent a leading cause of neonatal deaths.

In their press statement they ask - why not men? Why not boys? Or very young girls?

marienbad · 17-11-2014 2:22pm

It must be a terrible thing to see such absolute power slip away bit by bit .
It happens to everything , empires, dictators ,religions.

Make no mistake they would still abuse that power if they could.

They are just poor losers and it is great to see it .

kylith · 17-11-2014 2:35pm

RikuoAmero wrote: »

Last I checked, a good proportion of the US Founding Fathers were deists/atheist/agnostic (grouped together like this to contrast with christian). As for In God We Trust being on currency, that wasn't added to the US currency until the 1950s.

Same with "one nation under god" added to the pledge of allegiance (which is a creepy enough thing as it is).

Wasn't it to do with the Communist scare at the time?

coffee_cake · 17-11-2014 2:36pm

robindch wrote: »

Here's a related story - this time from Kenya where the country's catholic bishops claimed last month that the anti-Tetanus vaccine is actually a population-control program targetting women of child-bearing age.

Didn't that actually happen somewhere else? I can't remember the details

RikuoAmero · 17-11-2014 2:38pm

bluewolf wrote: »

Didn't that actually happen somewhere else? I can't remember the details

I remember hearing about a similar program in India. If I remember right, it was talked about on the most recent Drunken Peasants podcast.

PopePalpatine · 17-11-2014 4:38pm

According to Twitter, today's episode of the Sean O'Rourke Show on RTE Radio 1 discussed the alleged discrimination against Catholics in universities in Ireland. Naturally, the usual figures of the Catholic Right have had a circlej - sorry, can't use that word, it implies either homosexual acts or fornication, I mean echo chamber meeting - over this.

Catholic persecution complex

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