Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Ben Affleck vs. Sam Harris & Bill Maher on Real Time

12467…11

Comments

  • #152
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    marienbad wrote: »
    I don't think it is more nasty than that Nodin. ..............

    I don't think it is, I know it is.

    " The outrage that Muslims feel over U.S. and British foreign policy is primarily the product of theological concerns. " - total bollocks.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/bombing-our-illusions_b_8615.html

    There's a glaring omission in the above article. The last guy I asked didn't even try to win the internet biscuit for spotting it.


  • #153
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Nodin wrote: »
    I don't think it is, I know it is.

    " The outrage that Muslims feel over U.S. and British foreign policy is primarily the product of theological concerns. " - total bollocks.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/bombing-our-illusions_b_8615.html

    There's a glaring omission in the above article. The last guy I asked didn't even try to win the internet biscuit for spotting it.

    Yeah the West bombing the place into the stone age might have been a contributory factor , but the basic point remains.


  • #154
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    marienbad wrote: »
    Yeah the West bombing the place into the stone age might have been a contributory factor , but the basic point remains.


    nationalism? resentment of colonialism? The wish for self determination?....these fairly basic human complaints aren't applicable to muslims? It's a disgraceful bit of de-humanisation.

    The glaring omission is the
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_Tigers_of_Tamil_Eelam
    But why would Harris want to mention them, when he wants to stick with the narrative of muslim exceptionalism.


  • #155
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Nodin wrote: »
    nationalism? resentment of colonialism? The wish for self determination?....these fairly basic human complaints aren't applicable to muslims? It's a disgraceful bit of de-humanisation.

    The glaring omission is the
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_Tigers_of_Tamil_Eelam
    But why would Harris want to mention them, when he wants to stick with the narrative of muslim exceptionalism.

    I think you will need a bit more than that to debunk his arguments Nodin,

    So we have Japanese WW2 pilots ,Tamil Tigers , and throw in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Morrison and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Palach for good measure , but there is no denying it mainly an Islamic phenomenon


  • #156
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    marienbad wrote: »
    I think you will need a bit more than that to debunk his arguments Nodin,

    Dr Robert Pape, arguably the leading expert on suicide bombings has long debunked his argument. He, along with his team of researchers studied hundreds of suicide bombings over decades.

    His conclusions:
    "The data show that there is little connection between
    suicide terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism    ,
    or any one of the world's religions. . . . Rather, what nearly
    all suicide terrorist attacks have in common is a specific secular and
    strategic goal    : to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces
    from territory that the terrorists consider to be their homeland"

    Likewise, the motivation of the 911 hijackers according to testimony given during the 911 Commission, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1bm2GPoFfg#t=12
    "I believe they feel a sense of outrage against the United
    States. They identify with the Palestinian problem, they identify with people
    who oppose repressive regimes and I believe they tend to focus their anger on
    the United States."


  • Advertisement
  • #157
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    marienbad wrote: »
    Yeah the West bombing the place into the stone age might have been a contributory factor , but the basic point remains.
    OK. With scientific evidence prove that the More Muslim you are the more likely you are to resist Western oppression and violence in your homeland.

    Frightening thought though, the Bin Laden of his day, the atheist Palestinian terrorist Abu Nidal would have been more extreme if he was Muslim...


  • #158
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Standman wrote: »
    There is not even a single mention of Arabs in the above link. Shouldn't need to be said, but Muslim =/= Arab. You might say "Ah, but we all know what he really means when he says we should profile Muslims", but again this would be another example of the cynical, illogical view that many people seem to have of Harris' opinions & motives.
    OK, so how do we put into practice profiling Muslims at airports? Surprise calls to prayer over the tannoy? ;)

    How do we do this? "We should profile Muslims, or anyone who looks like he or she could conceivably be Muslim".
    But if someone who looked vaguely like Ben Stiller were wanted for crimes
    against humanity, I would understand if I turned a few heads at the airport.
    He is actually remarkably similar to the young war criminal Ariel Sharon.

    SHARON-19-YEARS_HAGANAH_ISRAEL.jpg
    samharris_lead.jpg


  • #159
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    No doubt what you say is true Brown Bomber and Harris probably overstates his case, and there is absolutely no doubt the Western interference in the region culminating in those appalling wars has contributed enormously to the issue.

    But we are where we are and there is a definite link between this methodology and the Islamic faith . In a rush n0w so I will respond fuller later


  • #160
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    marienbad wrote: »
    I think you will need a bit more than that to debunk his arguments Nodin,

    So we have Japanese WW2 pilots ,Tamil Tigers , and throw in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Morrison and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Palach for good measure , but there is no denying it mainly an Islamic phenomenon


    ...but it isn't a uniquely Islamic phenomenon.

    I think his argument re theology being the root of objections to US/British policy amongst muslims debunks him more thoroughly than anything I myself might say.


  • #161
    Standman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭Standman


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    OK, so how do we put into practice profiling Muslims at airports? Surprise calls to prayer over the tannoy? ;)

    How do we do this? "We should profile Muslims, or anyone who looks like he or she could conceivably be Muslim".


    He is actually remarkably similar to the young war criminal Ariel Sharon.

    Your answer to those questions, apparently, is to single out Arabs. I find it hard to believe you could have read the entirety of the blog post in question and come away thinking that it is simply advocating anti-Arab racism.

    You can hold that view all you like but it is unfounded and cynical in my opinion.


  • Advertisement
  • #162
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Standman wrote: »
    Your answer to those questions, apparently, is to single out Arabs. I find it hard to believe you could have read the entirety of the blog post in question and come away thinking that it is simply advocating anti-Arab racism.

    You can hold that view all you like but it is unfounded and cynical in my opinion.
    Again, how would we profile "Muslims" in airports?
    How do we do this without profiling 100% of Arabs - man, woman and child of all ages?
    Isn't it bigoted to call for profiling Muslims in US airports?

    Please answer this time. Actually one more - Is profiling "Muslims" (primarily black and brown skinned) a race-neutral policy in a state where whites are the majority race?


  • #163
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Again, how would we profile "Muslims" in airports?
    A white woman wearing a hijab?


  • #164
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Again, how would we profile "Muslims" in airports?
    How do we do this without profiling 100% of Arabs - man, woman and child of all ages?
    Isn't it bigoted to call for profiling Muslims in US airports?

    Please answer this time. Actually one more - Is profiling "Muslims" (primarily black and brown skinned) a race-neutral policy in a state where whites are the majority race?

    Do you think that Harris would 'wave along' a young white guy who decided to face Mecca and pray while he was going through airport security? No – I'm sure he'd be pretty keen that airport security interview this person too.

    His point is that it is primarily young, male Muslims who are most likely to be extremists (and thus a security threat), so airport security should be focussing their energies on vetting as best they can people who would be most likely to fit in that category; that profiling old, white women is not an appropriate use of resources.


  • #165
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    I was often picked out and searched myself, being Irish, and travelling between London and Dublin prior to the IRA ceasefire. It didn't bother me at all, I found it quite understandable.


  • #166
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Again, how would we profile "Muslims" in airports?
    How do we do this without profiling 100% of Arabs - man, woman and child of all ages?
    Isn't it bigoted to call for profiling Muslims in US airports?

    Please answer this time. Actually one more - Is profiling "Muslims" (primarily black and brown skinned) a race-neutral policy in a state where whites are the majority race?

    He's not a racist, nor have you presented any evidence to the effect he is.


  • #167
    Standman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭Standman


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Again, how would we profile "Muslims" in airports?
    How do we do this without profiling 100% of Arabs - man, woman and child of all ages?
    Isn't it bigoted to call for profiling Muslims in US airports?

    Please answer this time.

    I don't know how you would go about profiling Muslims in airports; it's Sam Harris' argument, not mine. Anyway, that's not the issue here.

    I don't believe it is bigoted in this case. Ill-advised or infeasible, maybe, but bigoted I think not.

    All I am pointing out - and something that you seem to be dodging - is that the blog post you linked does not support the assertion that Harris is "certainly" an anti-Arab racist, as you said earlier.


  • #168
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Standman wrote: »
    I don't know how you would go about profiling Muslims in airports; .
    You have one lane for white people without Islamic dress and another for white people with beards/exotic names and Islamic dress together with all black and brown people - "people who look like they could be Muslim".
    Standman wrote: »
    it's Sam Harris' argument, not mine. Anyway, that's not the issue here. .
    It really is.
    Standman wrote: »
    I don't believe it is bigoted in this case. Ill-advised or infeasible, maybe, but bigoted I think not. .
    How on earth is it not bigoted to tar an entire group -- who are already victims of prejudice and discrimination - who are overwhelmingly innocent and to treat them differently? Please answer this.
    Standman wrote: »
    All I am pointing out - and something that you seem to be dodging - is that the blog post you linked does not support the assertion that Harris is "certainly" an anti-Arab racist, as you said earlier.
    I disagree. He wants ALL ethnic Arabs to be profiled in US airports? How is this not racism?

    Interesting question for you - Is Harris' work impartial in your opinion?


  • #169
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Dave! wrote: »
    Do you think that Harris would 'wave along' a young white guy who decided to face Mecca and pray while he was going through airport security? No – I'm sure he'd be pretty keen that airport security interview this person too.

    His point is that it is primarily young, male Muslims who are most likely to be extremists (and thus a security threat), so airport security should be focussing their energies on vetting as best they can people who would be most likely to fit in that category; that profiling old, white women is not an appropriate use of resources.
    And what do these "young, male Muslims who are most likely to be extremists" actually look like?

    Muthallab? Nigerian National, Black. Western educated. English speaking. Western dress.
    Tsarnaev brothers? White, American accents. Western dressed.
    911 Hijackers? Arabs. English speaking. Western dress.
    The two Woolwich Michaels? British of African origin. Black. Western dressed. Christian converts.
    Joseph Cohen? White. American. Jewish convert.
    Times Square guy? Pakistani. US national, Western dressed.

    You tell me...Meanwhile any terrorist group who aren't completely inept will be sending their blue eyed blond haired recruits for obvious reasons and not a Mullah Omar lookalike.

    Do you actually think a would be plane hijacker/bomber would try to pass through security with a weapon/bomb looking like this?
    Joseph_Leonard_Cohen.jpg


  • #170
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Interesting question for you - Is Harris' work impartial in your opinion?

    Meaning? Is he being given Shekels by his Zionist friends to write about how great Israel is and how Arabs should all be killed?


  • #171
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    And what do these "young, male Muslims who are most likely to be extremists" actually look like?

    Muthallab? Nigerian National, Black. Western educated. English speaking. Western dress.
    Tsarnaev brothers? White, American accents. Western dressed.
    911 Hijackers? Arabs. English speaking. Western dress.
    The two Woolwich Michaels? British of African origin. Black. Western dressed. Christian converts.
    Joseph Cohen? White. American. Jewish convert.
    Times Square guy? Pakistani. US national, Western dressed.

    You tell me...Meanwhile any terrorist group who aren't completely inept will be sending their blue eyed blond haired recruits for obvious reasons and not a Mullah Omar lookalike.

    I didn't say I endorse the policy. Nor indeed is Harris frantically searching for the "fairest" approach to airport security—he's interested in the most effective; and to that end he doesn't believe that interrogating white, old women at the same rate as interrogating young, Arab males—in the name of equality—is an intelligent policy.

    He'd probably factor in things like whether the person recently spent long stretches in Afghanistan or Pakistan for no obvious reason.


  • Advertisement
  • #172
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Dave! wrote: »
    I didn't say I endorse the policy. Nor indeed is Harris frantically searching for the "fairest" approach to airport security—he's interested in the most effective; and to that end he doesn't believe that interrogating white, old women at the same rate as interrogating young, Arab males—in the name of equality—is an intelligent policy.

    So they look like Arabs? And do you endorse the policy?


  • #173
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Dave! wrote: »
    Meaning? Is he being given Shekels by his Zionist friends to write about how great Israel is and how Arabs should all be killed?
    No. I wanted to find out if standman considered him an impartial observer.


  • #174
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    So they look like Arabs? And do you endorse the policy?

    Do you think that this is effective security?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba030UmbkCo


    On a scale of 1–10 how highly would you rate the likelihood of that child wanting to explode an airplane?

    Wouldn't you agree with Harris that given limited resources and the desire to avoid unnecessary delays, you should rule certain people out of screening?

    I gather Harris would be happy to include behaviour and other factors in profiling policies. He elaborates:
    1. When I speak of profiling “Muslims, or anyone who looks like he or she could conceivably be Muslim,” I am not narrowly focused on people with dark skin. In fact, I included myself in the description of the type of person I think should be profiled (twice). To say that ethnicity, gender, age, nationality, dress, traveling companions, behavior in the terminal, and other outward appearances offer no indication of a person’s beliefs or terrorist potential is either quite crazy or totally dishonest. It is the charm of political correctness that it blends these sins against reasonableness so seamlessly. We are paying a very high price for this obscurantism—and the price could grow much higher in an instant. We have limited resources, and every moment spent searching a woman like the one pictured above, or the children seen in the linked videos, is a moment in which someone or something else goes unobserved.

    2. There is no conflict between what I have written here and “behavioral profiling” or other forms of threat detection. And if we can catch terrorists before they reach the airport, I am all for it. But the methods we use to do this tend to be even more focused and invasive (and, therefore, offensive) than profiling done by the TSA. Many readers who were horrified by my article seem to believe that there is nothing wrong with “gathering intelligence.” One wonders just how they think that is done.


  • #175
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    ............................

    I disagree. He wants ALL ethnic Arabs to be profiled in US airports? How is this not racism?

    ..............


    Where does he ask for Arabs to be profiled?


  • #176
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,678 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Since a large majority of Arabs are Muslims, and since "Arab" is an ethnic identity associated with a certain visual appearance, and since Harris speaks of profiling "anyone who looks like he or she could conceivably be Muslim" I'd say yes, Harris is calling for Arabs to be profiled. Who do you think "anyone who looks like he or she could conceivably be Muslim" embraces, if it doesn't embrace Arabs?


  • #177
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,476 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Dave! wrote: »
    I didn't say I endorse the policy. Nor indeed is Harris frantically searching for the "fairest" approach to airport security—he's interested in the most effective; and to that end he doesn't believe that interrogating white, old women at the same rate as interrogating young, Arab males—in the name of equality—is an intelligent policy.

    He'd probably factor in things like whether the person recently spent long stretches in Afghanistan or Pakistan for no obvious reason.

    El Al's screening policy is decidedly 'unfair' - but it is undoubtedly effective. If Western airlines faced that level of continuous ongoing threat they would either have to adopt a similar policy or cease operations. Political correctness won't cut it, and getting blown up while you were just about to start reading your airport novel is pretty 'unfair' too.

    99% of what you see going on in an airport is security theatre. Just there for show (like the so-called Ebola screening at Heathrow, or the Met officers with submachine guns for that matter.) The important and effective things are happening out of sight of the general public, or not at the airport at all.

    Scrap the cap!



  • #178
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,678 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    99% of what you see going on in an airport is security theatre. Just there for show (like the so-called Ebola screening at Heathrow, or the Met officers with submachine guns for that matter.) The important and effective things are happening out of sight of the general public, or not at the airport at all.
    And the "security theatre" includes all the pre-boarding searching, swabbing of luggage, etc. Which pretty well torpedos the argument that ethnic/racial profiling in such situations is justified because it works to protect passengers. You might argue that it works to comfort the (not "muslim-looking") passengers, because it panders to their prejudice that terrorists look like Muslims. But (a) is comforting only the non-Muslim-looking passengers a proper object of public policy? And (b) if we seek to comfort the passengers by pandering to and reinforcing their prejudices about Muslim-looking people, doesn't that tend to contribute to the bigger problem, rather than resolving it?


  • #179
    Playboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Playboy


    I think its pretty self-evident that Harris is a racist/bigot who dresses up that racism/bigotry in a subtle way that appeals to an intellectual/atheistic audience. Harris can make some valid points in isolation about problems that exist within Islam and certain fundamentalist groups/individuals. However his writings and narrative has to be critiqued in totality and the overall themes and bias lead one to see that he is a Western Supremacist who believes other cultures and in particular Islam to be inferior and in urgent need of reform so it can be remodeled in our image. He has some dangerous ideas that naturally would find a welcome audience in that country of which he has so obvious a blind spot, Israel.


  • #180
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Nodin wrote: »
    Where does he ask for Arabs to be profiled?
    It is implicit that he wants all Arabs to be profiled as all Arabs by default "look Muslim".


  • Advertisement
  • #181
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Playboy wrote: »
    I think its pretty self-evident that Harris is a racist/bigot who dresses up that racism/bigotry in a subtle way that appeals to an intellectual/atheistic audience. Harris can make some valid points in isolation about problems that exist within Islam and certain fundamentalist groups/individuals. However his writings and narrative has to be critiqued in totality and the overall themes and bias lead one to see that he is a Western Supremacist who believes other cultures and in particular Islam to be inferior and in urgent need of reform so it can be remodeled in our image. He has some dangerous ideas that naturally would find a welcome audience in that country of which he has so obvious a blind spot, Israel.
    I only wish I could write as eloquently and succintly as you and Peregrinus before you.. I think you've hit the nail on the head here. The same self-proclaimed liberals, the people who defend his distasteful views would be crucifying him for his extremist and right-wing outbursts if he were Christian or even Republican. It's similar to the Messiah Obama effect.


  • #182
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Dave! wrote: »
    Do you think that this is effective security? :
    I think it is racially neutral security.
    Dave! wrote: »
    On a scale of 1–10 how highly would you rate the likelihood of that child wanting to explode an airplane? :
    1. Exactly the same as any Arab child. Why should an Arab child be treated any differently because of the colour of their skin?
    Dave! wrote: »
    Wouldn't you agree with Harris that given limited resources and the desire to avoid unnecessary delays, you should rule certain people out of screening?:
    Not at all. That would be idiotic, as these would naturally be the people used by terrorist groups to bypass security.


    Can you explain to me based on appearance who the most likely candidate for radical Islamist is here?


    senior-photo_145.jpg Zackary Chesser


    or.....


    germany-obama-nsa-stasi-spying.si.jpg Barack Hussein Obama


    And don't give me that about "limited resources". 17 different Intelligence agencies with multi billion dollar budgets does not make "limited resources". Especially when they seem to have a blank cheque to spy on innocent Muslims and entrap them.


    NYPD Muslim Surveillance



    https://www.aclu.org/blog/tag/nypd-muslim-surveillance


    The Informants



    The FBI has built a massive network of spies to prevent another domestic attack. But are they busting terrorist plots—or leading them?

    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/08/fbi-terrorist-informants

    The ex-FBI informant with a change of heart: 'There is no real hunt. It's fixed'

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/mar/20/fbi-informant


  • #183
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    The FBI has built a massive network of spies to prevent another domestic attack. But are they busting terrorist plots—or leading them?
    The conspiracy theory forum is over here and your general output over the last few days suggests that you'd be more at home there.


  • #184
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    I think it is racially neutral security.

    Grand, so you acknowledge that you're placing the appearance of fairness & neutrality above effectiveness. Sam Harris values passenger safety above those things.
    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    1. Exactly the same as any Arab child. Why should an Arab child be treated any differently because of the colour of their skin?

    I don't think that he advocates searching children regardless of ethnicity unless there's some other reason to suspect they're being used – "To say that ethnicity, gender, age, nationality, dress, traveling companions, behavior in the terminal, and other outward appearances offer no indication of a person’s beliefs or terrorist potential is either quite crazy or totally dishonest."

    I would imagine it would depend on who the child is travelling with – perhaps if the child is travelling with a twitchy, bearded white guy who is clutching the Koran close to his chest, then Arab or non-Arab child, they'd probably be searched.
    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Not at all. That would be idiotic, as these would naturally be the people used by terrorist groups to bypass security.

    I'm sure that if there was reason to believe that old white women are routinely being used as mules to smuggle bombs onto planes, then Harris would alter his policy accordingly.

    He talks a bit about it here:
    http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/on-knowing-your-enemy29
    In trying to understand the reaction to my essay, I think I have uncovered most of the assumptions at work in the minds of my critics. I believe that every one of these assumptions is false. To my surprise, a few people who have a reputation for being very intelligent, such as the biologist-blogger PZ Myers, appear to believe all of them:

    ...

    6. It would also allow terrorists to find another path through security—such as recruiting 80-year-old women from Okinawa to do their suicidal dirty work (though #4 tells us that there is no such thing as “looking Muslim,” so 80-year-old women from Okinawa look no less Muslim than anyone else). Random searches are actually more prudent than targeted ones because terrorists cannot game a random system.

    ...

    The only assumptions on this list that stand a chance of being true are #6 and #7. Bruce Schneier appears to be very fond of #6, and I trust we will hear more from him about how terrorists can successfully game any system that profiles. But I don’t buy this argument, at least not yet, for reasons that we will probably discuss.

    I'm not sure where he stands on it now.
    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Can you explain to me based on appearance who the most likely candidate for radical Islamist is here?

    Zackary Chesser

    or.....

    Barack Hussein Obama

    Based on appearance alone? I have no idea. I doubt that either would raise eyebrows. If you factored in that one of them is the President of the USA, then it would be Zackary Chesser who would be most likely. And this is exactly what Harris talks about—using common sense to not profile certain people.

    He recalls witnessing Al Gore being searched at airport security before (presumably security were aware that he is the former Vice President). If you chose any random person walking through the airport, it would probably be a safe bet that Al Gore would be less likely than them to be a terrorist intent on exploding the plane. But he gets searched because of the desire to appear impartial, fair, neutral, etc.
    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    And don't give me that about "limited resources". 17 different Intelligence agencies with multi billion dollar budgets does not make "limited resources". Especially when they seem to have a blank cheque to spy on innocent Muslims and entrap them.

    You can't fit 17 intelligence agencies at airport security—you have a certain amount of security people with 2 eyes (and cameras being monitored, etc.) and long queues of impatient people.


  • #185
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Were the measures used by British Security Services at all the ports and Airports connecting mainland Britain and Ireland for over 25 years racist ?
    These measures were specifically targeting Irish people even to the extent of diverting passengers to unique channels

    Were and are the measures used by El-Al in Heathrow and every other airport for the last decades racist ?


  • #186
    Michael OBrien
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Michael OBrien


    recedite wrote: »
    I was often picked out and searched myself, being Irish, and travelling between London and Dublin prior to the IRA ceasefire. It didn't bother me at all, I found it quite understandable.

    I get searched ANY time I go to the States and have been taken aside and searched going to other locations. I find it amusing more than anything.


  • Advertisement
  • #187
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Michael OBrien wrote: »
    I get searched ANY time I go to the States and have been taken aside and searched going to other locations.
    I had a whole special security detail look into me, almost literally, last time I visited Riyadh - clearly an example of anti-atheist prejudice.


  • #188
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    marienbad wrote: »
    Were the measures used by British Security Services at all the ports and Airports connecting mainland Britain and Ireland for over 25 years racist ?
    These measures were specifically targeting Irish people even to the extent of diverting passengers to unique channels

    Were and are the measures used by El-Al in Heathrow and every other airport for the last decades racist ?

    Indeed. If you aren't willing to take these measures then you'll have to admit that you place passenger safety lower in the priorities than equality, fairness, neutrality, etc. That's a valid position to take.

    It sounds to me though that BB is more concerned with the practicalities of such policies—which means he agrees with Sam Harris in principle at least :) He'll probably feel he needs a wash after coming to that realisation.


  • #189
    Michael OBrien
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Michael OBrien


    robindch wrote: »
    I had a whole special security detail look into me, almost literally, last time I visited Riyadh - clearly an example of anti-atheist prejudice.
    I think the fact that BEING an atheist is considered a terrorist act in that country (SA) is more to the point. Now that is profiling that seems to not raise much media attention.
    I would not travel there for any reason.


  • #190
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Playboy wrote: »
    I think its pretty self-evident that Harris is a racist/bigot who dresses up that racism/bigotry in a subtle way that appeals to an intellectual/atheistic audience. Harris can make some valid points in isolation about problems that exist within Islam and certain fundamentalist groups/individuals. However his writings and narrative has to be critiqued in totality and the overall themes and bias lead one to see that he is a Western Supremacist who believes other cultures and in particular Islam to be inferior and in urgent need of reform so it can be remodeled in our image. He has some dangerous ideas that naturally would find a welcome audience in that country of which he has so obvious a blind spot, Israel.

    sectarian bigot.


  • #191
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    robindch wrote: »
    I had a whole special security detail look into me, almost literally, last time I visited Riyadh - clearly an example of anti-atheist prejudice.


    Or ye just look dodgy.


  • Advertisement
  • #192
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Michael OBrien wrote: »
    I think the fact that BEING an atheist is considered a terrorist act in that country (SA) is more to the point.
    Indeedy:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-declares-all-atheists-are-terrorists-in-new-law-to-crack-down-on-political-dissidents-9228389.html

    Can't say I've heard much condemnation of that from our religious friends or their confrères.


  • #193
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Nodin wrote: »
    Or ye just look dodgy.
    Perhaps, but I like to think that it was because I'd been reading the God Delusion on the flight over, but had put "christian" down on the immigration card.


  • #194
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    robindch wrote: »
    I'd been reading the God Delusion on the flight over, but had put "christian" down on the immigration card.
    How very Islamic of you, telling porkies in order to keep the peace :D


  • #195
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    recedite wrote: »
    How very Islamic of you, telling porkies in order to keep the peace :D

    Ah-Heyor-672x480.jpg


  • #196
    Michael OBrien
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Michael OBrien


    recedite wrote: »
    How very Islamic of you, telling porkies in order to keep the peace :D

    Well SA Sharia keeps close to the quran. Surah 5:32.
    "Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with clear proofs, evidences, and signs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits (e.g. by doing oppression unjustly and exceeding beyond the limits set by Allah by committing the major sins) in the land!."
    I note in bold what apologetic tell you, once again in support of my earlier post, not that I expect it will do much good, but I find it eyeopening.
    I italicized the part about spreading mischief which can be interpreted as any form of fit'na or disturbance to Islamic ideas.

    Simply liking a post on facebook that says something mildly negative about muhammed can lead to your arrest (plus the poster of course).


  • #197
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,476 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    And the "security theatre" includes all the pre-boarding searching, swabbing of luggage, etc. Which pretty well torpedos the argument that ethnic/racial profiling in such situations is justified because it works to protect passengers.

    It's not, at present, for the threat Western airlines are exposed to. It is for El Al.

    You might argue that it works to comfort the (not "muslim-looking") passengers, because it panders to their prejudice that terrorists look like Muslims. But (a) is comforting only the non-Muslim-looking passengers a proper object of public policy? And (b) if we seek to comfort the passengers by pandering to and reinforcing their prejudices about Muslim-looking people, doesn't that tend to contribute to the bigger problem, rather than resolving it?

    I would wager that El Al's profiling is rather more sophisticated than 'who looks muslim'.

    Scrap the cap!



  • #198
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    We are getting side-tracked a bit into whether Sam Harris is a racist or not whereas the original point and introduction to the TV segment was that liberals need to stand up for liberal principles and that includes freedom of speech, of religion or to leave a religion , women's rights and minority rights including gay rights . And Harris's overall point is that Liberals failed to do this when it comes to Theocracy ,particularly Islamic theocracy .


    I personally don't believe he is racist ,but he believes we should apply the exact same scrutiny to Islam that we do to Christianity or any other belief system. How can that be wrong ?


  • #199
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,678 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    I would wager that El Al's profiling is rather more sophisticated than 'who looks muslim'.
    Yes, but we know that Sam Harris's isn't. El Al's profiling may well be based on rational criteria, but I thought it was Sam Harris's views that were under discussion here.


  • #200
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    marienbad wrote: »
    We are getting side-tracked a bit into whether Sam Harris is a racist or not whereas the original point and introduction to the TV segment was that liberals need to stand up for liberal principles and that includes freedom of speech, of religion or to leave a religion , women's rights and minority rights including gay rights . And Harris's overall point is that Liberals failed to do this when it comes to Theocracy ,particularly Islamic theocracy .


    I personally don't believe he is racist ,but he believes we should apply the exact same scrutiny to Islam that we do to Christianity or any other belief system. How can that be wrong ?

    Unfortunately Harris has so much baggage attached, using any statement of his to start a discussion is doomed from the start.


  • #201
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Nodin wrote: »
    Unfortunately Harris has so much baggage attached, using any statement of his to start a discussion is doomed from the start.

    Only if you let it , if we all agreed with every position of every public intellectual all of the time then we would have little public discussion.

    And he is a renowned public intellectual and you said it yourself not a racist.
    The ball and not the man and all that.

    So again to the basic premise - do Western Liberals bottle it when it comes to Islamic Theocracy ? Little chance of this

    http://vegasjessie.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/20120429-092845.jpg


  • Advertisement
Advertisement