The Middle Distance Thread

ECOLII · 05-03-2015 4:01pm

Netwerk_Errer wrote: »

Looking for some advice on steeple training. I've decided to run the 3000m sc at Munster championships in in the summer but I feel I might be underestimating just how difficult it is. Just from jumping a few sprint hurdles the other night at the track, I could see that my coordination and knee drive is shocking and and I fatigue pretty quickly. My overall flexibility is good but my I'm badly in need of some strength work.

Anyone know of some good plyos and other training techniques to improve my technique and strength for the steeple?

Haven't trained specifically for Steeple since I was younger so these days its usually a couple of 150m strides over hurdles post session but in terms of drills

Hip mobility hurdle drills (line 5-6 hurdles up back to back)
- Lead Leg Step overs
- Trail leg step overs
- Hurdle bounds
- Reverse trail leg step backs

In terms of water jump technique line steeplechase barrier up in front of long jump pit and practice push offs into the sand

In terms of sessions 400s/600s/800s over hurdles (2-3 per lap on straights) work well especially if its your first time training for it as there are not enough to disrupt your rhythm but enough to have you working technique while fatigued

60-80m strides over 2-3 hurdles also regularly

Aside from this my advice would be to train like a 1500m runner and you won't go too far wrong

walshb · 05-03-2015 4:04pm

Is the 3k steeplechase track's toughest physical event? I have heard many say it is. Looks just like 3 k with a few hurdles. Very deceiving.

Sacksian · 05-03-2015 5:54pm

I can't offer much by way of steeple-specific training but it's something I've been looking into as I'm planning to try a steeplechase (or two) during the summer too. Based on almost every conversation I've had about this and everything I've read, the secret behind running a quick steeplechase appears to be the ability to run a quick flat 3k! Obviously, flexibility and strength can't be overlooked but speed is fundamental.

Are you with a club? If your club is in the National League, they will be very grateful for your interest in the steeplechase! (unless you've already got a specialist).

Netwerk_Errer · 05-03-2015 6:13pm

Sacksian wrote: »

I can't offer much by way of steeple-specific training but it's something I've been looking into as I'm planning to try a steeplechase (or two) during the summer too. Based on almost every conversation I've had about this and everything I've read, the secret behind running a quick steeplechase appears to be the ability to run a quick flat 3k! Obviously, flexibility and strength can't be overlooked but speed is fundamental.

Are you with a club? If your club is in the National League, they will be very grateful for your interest in the steeplechase! (unless you've already got a specialist).

Yeah, I'm with a club. We're not in the national league. I'm not going to be specifically targeting the SC but it's something I want to give a shot out of curiosity. Even though it's not going to be a goal race, I'd still like to practice some of the technique and strengthening aspects to run it and not make a complete fool out of myself.

I've already added some decent speedwork to my plan but at different paces. Things like 12x400 @3k pace w/60 rec, high quantity of 200 and 400 reps @ mile pace with longer recovery longer and 800 reps at 5k pace one day of the week while the other day will be longer 10k and 5k specific training. I'llbe cutting down on quantity while decreasing recovery the closer I get. Just mixing things up with paced workouts.

Any ideas on improvements there that could be made for flat speed?

Timmaay · 05-03-2015 10:02pm

I've done a decent few steeples by now, my coordination to be honest is shocking also ha, particularly over the water, but I can still bang out a decent enough time on the back of my 1500/3k flat training. Most my hurdle work is just jumping the barriers 10 or 20times after training in the leadup to events, or into the sandpit to mimic the waterjump. I actually really got to get back into the habit of doing this once every week or so, I would say for you its the best bet also, no specific strength work or speed work etc is going to be as effect as just jumping barrier and hurdles as often as you can.

Steeple is an event which I've noticed us average club runs tend to be wildly inconsistent at ha, I've done steeplechases with friend, both of us horribly hungover with zero expectation and knocked out decent pbs ha, whereas other times I come in quite confident that I have a decent bit of work done, but just utterly dead during the race and every barrier is like a mountain!

Sacksian · 10-03-2015 12:36pm

Here comes the summer...

IMC dates just announced.

18.04 Leevale T&F
19.04 Road Relays
22.04 DUBLIN GRADED Meeting 1
25.04 Thomond Games UL
02.05 IMC Greystones
06.05 DUBLIN GRADED Meeting 2
13.05 CORK GRADED Meeting 1
17.05 AAI Games
20.05 DUBLIN GRADED Meeting 3
23.05 IMC Belfast
24.05 National Track & Field League Round 1
29.05 CORK GRADED Meeting 2
31.05 Leinster Senior & Masters T&F
03.06 DUBLIN GRADED Meeting 4
06.06 IMC Bertie Guinn T&F
06.06 NI Championships
10.06 BHAA TCD Track Races
08.06 CORK GRADED Meeting 3
13.06 IMC Le Chéile
16.06 CORK GRADED Meeting 4
17.06 DUBLIN GRADED Meeting 5
01.07 DUBLIN GRADED Meeting 6
05.07 National Junior & U23 Championships
11.07 IMC GV Ryan / Crusaders
15.07 DUBLIN GRADED Meeting 7
16.07 CORK GRADED Meeting 5
19.07 National Track & Field League Round 2
22.07 CORK GRADED Meeting 6
24.07 IMC Morton Games
26.07 National Masters Track & Field Championships
29.07 DUBLIN GRADED Meeting 8
02.08 National Track & Field League Final
08.08 National Senior Track & Field Championships

Plan is to race myself stupid this summer; just have to stay uninjured - which is proving a little tricky!

Also, if someone wants to pretty up the format of my list, feel free!

Chivito550 · 10-03-2015 12:39pm

Sacksian wrote: »

Here comes the summer...

IMC dates just announced.

18.04 Leevale T&F
19.04 Road Relays
22.04 DUBLIN GRADED Meeting 1
25.04 Thomond Games UL
02.05 IMC Greystones
06.05 DUBLIN GRADED Meeting 2
13.05 CORK GRADED Meeting 1
20.05 DUBLIN GRADED Meeting 3
23.05 IMC Belfast
24.05 National Track & Field League Round 1
29.05 CORK GRADED Meeting 2
31.05 Leinster Senior & Masters T&F
03.06 DUBLIN GRADED Meeting 4
06.06 IMC Bertie Guinn T&F
10.06 BHAA TCD Track Races
08.06 CORK GRADED Meeting 3
13.06 IMC Le Chéile
16.06 CORK GRADED Meeting 4
17.06 DUBLIN GRADED Meeting 5
01.07 DUBLIN GRADED Meeting 6
05.07 National Junior & U23 Championships
11.07 IMC GV Ryan / Crusaders
15.07 DUBLIN GRADED Meeting 7
16.07 CORK GRADED Meeting 5
19.07 National Track & Field League Round 2
22.07 CORK GRADED Meeting 6
24.07 IMC Morton Games
26.07 National Masters Track & Field Championships
29.07 DUBLIN GRADED Meeting 8
02.08 National Track & Field League Final
08.08 National Senior Track & Field Championships

Plan is to race myself stupid this summer; just have to stay uninjured - which is proving a little tricky!

Also, if someone wants to pretty up the format of my list, feel free!

AAI Games 17 May
NI Champs 6 June

Sacksian · 10-03-2015 12:45pm

Just looking at that list, you're really not going to be short of an opportunity to race this summer. I had been wondering about the possibility of doubling up on events and racing very frequently instead of doing sessions, which is a recipe for disaster but I might try it out in June!

Chivito550 · 10-03-2015 12:53pm

Sacksian wrote: »

Just looking at that list, you're really not going to be short of an opportunity to race this summer. I had been wondering about the possibility of doubling up on events and racing very frequently instead of doing sessions, which is a recipe for disaster but I might try it out in June!

Gradeds starting a week early, and Nationals 3 weeks later than last year. So essentially this season is a month longer. Could be hard to peak for Nationals on this occasion. Not a big deal for me though. As long as I hit sub 54 during the season I don't care which race I do it at. It's always extra special to run a PB at the biggest meet of the year though. But it could piss down on that day, so I wouldn't want to be putting all my eggs into one basket.

Sacksian · 10-03-2015 1:11pm

I'd be of the same opinion. I missed out on senior nationals last year, which was a bit ****, but if I manage to run under two minutes at any point this summer, I could live with missing it again.

This amount of races also means that I can try out a few different tactics and distances over the summer. Once the graded book is out, I can decide on targets.

ECOLII · 10-03-2015 3:24pm

Sacksian wrote: »

I'd be of the same opinion. I missed out on senior nationals last year, which was a bit ****, but if I manage to run under two minutes at any point this summer, I could live with missing it again.

This amount of races also means that I can try out a few different tactics and distances over the summer. Once the graded book is out, I can decide on targets.

Looking at it myself I kinda wanna sustain the season so might try a Rupp Style post race session for the short ones and try and keep 2 sessions a week right through in order to sustain the season hopefully I wanna run long but will take a mini down week mid June and then run through to National Seniors

Sacksian · 10-03-2015 3:50pm

ECOLII wrote: »

Looking at it myself I kinda wanna sustain the season so might try a Rupp Style post race session for the short ones and try and keep 2 sessions a week right through in order to sustain the season hopefully I wanna run long but will take a mini down week mid June and then run through to National Seniors

Interesting! I was almost thinking along similar lines - doing 2 races a night for the Gradeds and rest down for any targets like the IMC races.

Found it difficult last year to figure out what sessions to do and when to do them during the 2 week period around the Graded races.

pconn062 · 10-03-2015 11:40pm

That list makes me excited, so many races! Have to get back training first, attempting a jog tomorrow, cross your fingers for me!

Timmaay · 10-03-2015 11:46pm

Sacksian wrote: »

Interesting! I was almost thinking along similar lines - doing 2 races a night for the Gradeds and rest down for any targets like the IMC races.

Found it difficult last year to figure out what sessions to do and when to do them during the 2 week period around the Graded races.

I do sometimes double up on races but find it very hit and miss 2bh, more often than not I'll be compromising both races. Particularly true if one of them is 800 ha. Doing consecutive race day meetings is well doable once you are smart about your build up, aka be well rest most the previous week, I'll happily do this moreso this year, it's great training for championship events where you can have heats and finals on consecutive days.

In terms of training around race meetings, I'd be fairly conservative here definitely, plenty times in the past I've had a bit of a rush of blood to the head in the week leading up to a key race and left too much on the track during training, for 800 paced stuff this is particularly a problem as I suffer badly from tight calves. The mega tough sessions are for the pre season, or during a mid season break from racing in my view.

Sacksian · 11-03-2015 9:42am

Timmaay wrote: »

I do sometimes double up on races but find it very hit and miss 2bh, more often than not I'll be compromising both races. Particularly true if one of them is 800 ha. Doing consecutive race day meetings is well doable once you are smart about your build up, aka be well rest most the previous week, I'll happily do this moreso this year, it's great training for championship events where you can have heats and finals on consecutive days.

I’d definitely be compromising the second race anyway! I’ve doubled up quite a bit in championships in the past couple of years. So, I did an 800 followed by a 1500 four times and I did an 800 followed by a 400 last year. The 800/1500 double was much harder. I think doing a 200/800 or 400/1500 double should be okay and I’d like to try out a couple of races on consecutive days too.

Timmaay wrote: »

In terms of training around race meetings, I'd be fairly conservative here definitely, plenty times in the past I've had a bit of a rush of blood to the head in the week leading up to a key race and left too much on the track during training, for 800 paced stuff this is particularly a problem as I suffer badly from tight calves. The mega tough sessions are for the pre season, or during a mid season break from racing in my view.

I know what you’re saying about leaving it on the track for key races. But last year I felt that I rested down too often for races that didn’t really matter and I’d like to race a bit tired this year, for the training effect, and then rest properly for four or five races later in the year.

Chivito550 · 11-03-2015 10:05am

I would always double up in Melbourne for inter club meets. 100/400 one week, 200/800 the next. There would be other meets where I'd only run a 400.

Since coming home I've decided if I'm going to run a 400 then it will be my only race that day, or if I am to do 2 races then the 400 must be the first event. Still happy to double up if both events on the programme are secondary events such as 200/800 for example. Less incentive to double up here as it doesn't score points for my club or anything like that.

Timmaay · 11-03-2015 10:45am

Chivito550 wrote: »

Less incentive to double up here as it doesn't score points for my club or anything like that.

Interesting. How could we apply something as such to say the Dublin graded or imcs? The races would still be about running times, but have some sort of weighting for each grade, ie a win in an A graded 800 where there are 5 graded races get you 50 points, 2nd place 49 etc, a B grade win gets 40 and so on down. Would take a decent bit of programming to get a system to do this up and running, but once it's there it should work well. Would give every single athlete who runs in a graded race a club incentive, even if they are in a D 800 and only score 1 point it all counts towards their club total. Possibly have two divisions then to separate the big (mostly Dublin) clubs from the smaller clubs also.

Dubgal72 · 13-03-2015 10:22am

Hi, I'm really looking forward to getting stuck into some track this spring and summer (beyond excited actually, it's been a while

). I think the coach will have me targeting 3k by the sounds of things but I'll squeeze in a couple of 800s and 1500s too. Are there any strategies for racing any of these distances that you guys here have tried and tested? Thanks in advance.

pconn062 · 13-03-2015 10:42am

Dubgal72 wrote: »

Hi, I'm really looking forward to getting stuck into some track this spring and summer (beyond excited actually, it's been a while ). I think the coach will have me targeting 3k by the sounds of things but I'll squeeze in a couple of 800s and 1500s too. Are there any strategies for racing any of these distances that you guys here have tried and tested? Thanks in advance.

The strategies for 800m and 3,000m would be very different. IMO, the strategy you employ in a middle distance race depends on a number of things; the quality of the field, your goal for the race (time or position), whether it's a championship race or not and so on. For example if you are the fastest in the race you need to decide if you are going to front run or sit in and let someone else do some of the work. In my experience the 800m is usually just run flat out and are not often that tactical. Whereas the 1,500m or 3,000m can be much more tactical and will often have more surges and could start a bit slower. For me though, I would be on the slower end of the scale in these races so even if they guys at the front take it out easy (for them), I am usually still hanging on! The Graded Meets are great as you are never really out of your depth so long as you go in the correct race.

Dubgal72 · 13-03-2015 10:53am

Thanks P. That all makes sense and I suppose it will make even more sense over the next few weeks as we start to do more specific training on the track. I read an interesting article about positive-splitting the 800 as opposed to negative-splitting it. What would your thoughts be on that?

Sacksian · 13-03-2015 11:21am

If you’re chasing a time, I think all races are pretty much the same - deciding how much effort to expend at different stages of a race - but if you’ve been competing at the pointy end of xc races, you’ll know the range of options available to you when you’re racing: when to sit or move on to someone’s shoulder, deciding to lead out, how fast to start, chances to push, etc.

I’d love to have those dilemmas in cross-country season but the graded and masters track races are the only chance I get to really race properly! The more competitive you are, the more options you will have. So, while I actually only have one tactic at the 800m, it’s the distance where I am most likely to have a shot at being in a race at the gradeds or masters.

I’d disagree that the 800 isn’t tactical. If you’re in a tight championship race, the 800 can be the most difficult to judge. I think it was something I picked up from dna_leri: that you only have two moves in an 800m race - one offensive and one defensive. And you have to make those decisions while moving quite quickly in close proximity to your competitors, while you are trying to stop yourself from slowing down. Which is why the 800 is so great, if you have a short attention span: there’s just so much going on.

Best thing to do is just to try a few and to see which one you are naturally drawn to.

Sacksian · 13-03-2015 11:25am

Dubgal72 wrote: »

Thanks P. That all makes sense and I suppose it will make even more sense over the next few weeks as we start to do more specific training on the track. I read an interesting article about positive-splitting the 800 as opposed to negative-splitting it. What would your thoughts be on that?

Unless it’s a ridiculously tactical race, 800m should always be a positive split (for senior athletes, I suppose). The size of the split will depend on the athlete but I’ve seen the optimum suggested as large as a 4 second positive split. I’ve never been brave enough to do that. All my best times are 2s positive splits. But, whatever the size of the positive split, most people agree your best race will be one where each successive 200m split is slower than the previous one.

The 1972 Olympic final is a great example of what positive splitting at 800m looks like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LHid-nC45k

Sacksian · 13-03-2015 11:33am

Obviously, there are lots of examples of championship races being run with negative splits, but your best 800m time will come from a positive split.

pconn062 · 13-03-2015 11:35am

Sacksian wrote: »

If you’re chasing a time, I think all races are pretty much the same - deciding how much effort to expend at different stages of a race - but if you’ve been competing at the pointy end of xc races, you’ll know the range of options available to you when you’re racing: when to sit or move on to someone’s shoulder, deciding to lead out, how fast to start, chances to push, etc.

I’d love to have those dilemmas in cross-country season but the graded and masters track races are the only chance I get to really race properly! The more competitive you are, the more options you will have. So, while I actually only have one tactic at the 800m, it’s the distance where I am most likely to have a shot at being in a race at the gradeds or masters.

I’d disagree that the 800 isn’t tactical. If you’re in a tight championship race, the 800 can be the most difficult to judge. I think it was something I picked up from dna_leri: that you only have two moves in an 800m race - one offensive and one defensive. And you have to make those decisions while moving quite quickly in close proximity to your competitors, while you are trying to stop yourself from slowing down. Which is why the 800 is so great, if you have a short attention span: there’s just so much going on.

Best thing to do is just to try a few and to see which one you are naturally drawn to.

I don't think the 800m is not tactical, just in my experience as a pretty bad 800m runner it usually means me running flat out to just try and hold onto the front of the race. It's probably tactical for the guys at the front.

Dubgal72 · 13-03-2015 11:38am

Sacksian wrote: »

Unless it’s a ridiculously tactical race, 800m should always be a positive split (for senior athletes, I suppose). The size of the split will depend on the athlete but I’ve seen the optimum suggested as large as a 4 second positive split. I’ve never been brave enough to do that. All my best times are 2s positive splits. But, whatever the size of the positive split, most people agree your best race will be one where each successive 200m split is slower than the previous one.

The 1972 Olympic final is a great example of what positive splitting at 800m looks like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LHid-nC45k

That is unreal isn't it? I was thinking at the start, 'jeez that guy must be feeling pretty panicky, all that way back'. Right up to the finish I was thinking 'noooo, no way can he do it...' Wow.
And that was still a positive split? That was a brave race.

Sacksian · 13-03-2015 11:50am

Dubgal72 wrote: »

That is unreal isn't it? I was thinking at the start, 'jeez that guy must be feeling pretty panicky, all that way back'. Right up to the finish I was thinking 'noooo, no way can he do it...' Wow.

I know! The first time I saw the race, I just thought it was mental. I've seen various estimates but I think the consensus is that he ran 26s 200s all the way around.

Having said that, Dave Wottle did break the world record with a negative split in 1972 - great article here:
http://scienceofsport.blogspot.ie/2008/08/beijing-2008-mens-800m.html

So, this article says the 800m world record has only been run with a negative split twice.

However, despite the consensus, I'd imagine the slower you are, the less recommended a positive split is (presumably it's becoming more aerobic the longer it goes on). I'm not sure at what point that is but I guess it could be around 2:30??

Dubgal72 · 13-03-2015 12:02pm

Sacksian wrote: »

I know! The first time I saw the race, I just thought it was mental. I've seen various estimates but I think the consensus is that he ran 26s 200s all the way around.

Having said that, Dave Wottle did break the world record with a negative split in 1972 - great article here:
http://scienceofsport.blogspot.ie/2008/08/beijing-2008-mens-800m.html

So, this article says the 800m world record has only been run with a negative split twice.

However, despite the consensus, I'd imagine the slower you are, the less recommended a positive split is (presumably it's becoming more aerobic the longer it goes on). I'm not sure at what point that is but I guess it could be around 2:30??

Great article and explains the theory perfectly, thanks! I guess my first few track sessions will give an indication of where the leg speed is at now. Probably not quite at 2:30 at this stage in the season but I'll be looking at that marker for sure. Thanks again.

Dubgal72 · 13-03-2015 12:14pm

Had to watch that again

Sacksian · 13-03-2015 12:22pm

Every 4th time you watch it, he doesn't actually make it.

dna_leri · 13-03-2015 12:56pm

I agree with the theory that positive splits are best for an 800m PB. My PB was very slightly positive - I think 61/61.5. I would suggest for most of us that aiming for even splits is best, how well we do will then depend on how strong we can finish i.e. how much (or little) we slow down in the second half. For me that is the same in the 1500/mile, I have not enough experience in 3000m to say. In both 800 and 1500/mile the 3rd quarter of the race is critical mentally as well as physically in maintaining pace and concentration.

When trying to win or place in a race, tactics play an important role and are secondary to times. I think as a competitor you need to be able to handle the range of tactics but ultimately you will play to your strengths. So if you are a strength based endurance runner you may lead from the front or kick from 400m. If you are a speed based runner then you may trust your final kick to get you home. Anyone planning to race should "train your kick". Steve Magness explains this well http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2011/10/training-to-kick.html

Going into a championship type race (like this weekend) I will have plan A,B,C&D which ranges from "run from the front" to "kick in the last 50/100m". Depending on who shows up or how they decide to race, I will change my plan.

BTW the quote about only having two moves in an 800m race (one offensive and one defensive) originates from Peter Coe and if you watch some of those great Coe/Ovett duels is broadly true.

The Middle Distance Thread

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