Spur for alarm

Diggerdunne · 24-09-2013 2:53pm #1

A question to the alarm guys here.. With the new elec regs coming in from Oct 1st how will this implicate a spur being installed for an alarm? Have alarm installers being previously installing spurs or do they get an elect in with them to connect or run in a spur for them?

KoolKid · 24-09-2013 4:08pm

We have been previously installing them. I have asked a few times re this and can never get a definitive answer. TBH.

stuartkee · 26-09-2013 12:41am

Here is what the Commission for Energy Regulation emailed to me hope this helps clear it up ..............

In relation to our discussion yesterday regarding your query about the new regulations around Restricted Works. Once Restricted Electrical Works come into effect from 1st October it will be illegal for a non-Registered Electrical Contractor (REC) to add a circuit (e.g. for alarm panel) to the distribution board in a domestic premises.

Minor works are exempt from the Restricted Works regulations. In relation to your query Minor works would include the addition of an accessory to an existing circuit such as adding a fused spur to a socket circuit in order to feed the alarm panel. Once this work is completed by a suitably trained/competent person, and installed and tested appropriately it is acceptable. The CER recommends certifying Minor Electrical Works but it is not compulsory. Once Restricted Works are brought in only a REC will be able to complete electrical work in a Domestic setting, but the above mentioned Minor Works are exempt and will still not require to have been completed by a REC.

If you have any queries please don’t hesitate to contact me.

Regards,

Thomas Quinn

Technical Analyst

Electrical Safety Supervision

Commission for Energy Regulation

The Exchange

Belgard Square North

Tallaght

Dublin 24

liveandnetural · 26-09-2013 1:45am

spur connected to socket ok
connecting a spur into a fuseboard not ok

altor · 26-09-2013 4:49pm

liveandnetural wrote: »

spur connected to socket ok
connecting a spur into a fuseboard not ok

Checked this with the EQA today and they confirm the above.

KoolKid · 27-09-2013 4:30pm

John Kelly of wrote: »

Ballcocks.
Making life difficult for people for no good reason. I'd say the risk of someone being injured because of dodgy electrical wiring done by psa licensed alarm installers is pretty low so why don't we get an exemption for the small bit of electrical work we are doing?
Why didn't the psa get us an exemption when we are paying them so much.

Payback for the sparks not being allowed install alarms and CCTV..

John Kelly of · 27-09-2013 4:32pm

Hang do they mean that you can connect into the fuse board as long as its not on a separate circuit? or that you can't go near the fuse board at all?

John Kelly of · 27-09-2013 4:41pm

Just checked with EQA they reckon it's not allowed to even open the fuse board.

KoolKid · 27-09-2013 4:49pm

John Kelly of wrote: »

Hang do they mean that you can connect into the fuse board as long as its not on a separate circuit? or that you can't go near the fuse board at all?

It could read like that as well...

John Kelly of · 27-09-2013 4:56pm

Yes I think it could be read like that by a sensible person.

fred funk }{ · 27-09-2013 5:44pm

I know what I'll be doing.

KoolKid · 27-09-2013 7:13pm

Anyone remember this statement
However, the Rules do not apply to other services (e.g. alarm. communications equipment.
Re the national standards....?;)

cerastes · 27-09-2013 7:34pm

Im not an installer, or an electrician, although Ive had quite a bit of experience down the years with electrical and other work not connected to my trade.
but this kind of thing befuddles me,
Im sure its well meaning, and only intended to stop dangerous installations of any kind happening,

Its been a while since I checked, and I know people will say its a different location/country but Im sure in the UK so long as you have or can prove you have a certain comparable standard or knowledge you are allowed carry out certain electrical work.
Im planning to upgrade my alarm, so the power supply is already in place as it was wired in during construction along with everything else, but I know that its connected off a light circuit and I thought they always were connected to the power that way.

I can see how people could work around this legitimately but maybe using a spur off a socket, but shouldn't it really be connecting into a lighting circuit? I know that batteries provide a back up in the event of no power or circuits and its something thats likely to be noticed before a battery runs down, mostly?.

liveandnetural · 27-09-2013 11:01pm

here ye go
http://www.psa.gov.ie/Website/psa/psa.nsf/newsitems/0F84794DD94C863C80257BF30054C4E6?OpenDocument

this includes gates as well!

stuartkee · 28-09-2013 4:33pm

Its a stich up lads deffo putting the boot in on the alarm guys after the PSA rained on there parade in 07

lgk · 07-04-2014 4:42pm

Just following up on this, what are people's thoughts on an alarm panel being connected to the mains via a lead plugged in to a convenient socket? Would that comply with all the required standards?

KoolKid · 07-04-2014 4:58pm

It seems to be Ok for phonewatch.
Strange considering I have seen inspectors complain of the spur is switched.

lgk · 07-04-2014 5:02pm

Thanks for that. Funny how you guessed Phonewatch! They installed a system in my parents with that setup, not even 12 months since they'd had a KHC SW1070 system put in. Pressure sales tactics...not too happy about it so assessing my options for complaint.

kub · 07-04-2014 8:22pm

lgk wrote: »

Thanks for that. Funny how you guessed Phonewatch! They installed a system in my parents with that setup, not even 12 months since they'd had a KHC SW1070 system put in. Pressure sales tactics...not too happy about it so assessing my options for complaint.

Very easy to guess Phonewatch, the standard's agencies seem to flex to Phonewatch ' s practices.

KoolKid · 07-04-2014 8:25pm

Have some inspections coming up soon with EQA. Might swap out a few suprs for sockets and plugs to see what happens.

kub · 07-04-2014 8:37pm

Just make sure it is plugged into somewhere that a householder might need to pull out the panel plug to stick in their hoover plug to.

altor · 07-04-2014 11:12pm

Is it true that these new regulations only apply to domestic and not commercial premises?

From whats coming down the line taking a spur off a socket will also not be allowed.

14-04-2014 11:23pm

John Kelly of wrote: »

Just checked with EQA they reckon it's not allowed to even open the fuse board.

Correct, only a REC (Registered Electrical Contractor) is legally allowed to work on a distribution board in a domestic installation.
Link to Restricted Electrical Works Decision Paper

stuartkee wrote: »

Its a stich up lads deffo putting the boot in on the alarm guys after the PSA rained on there parade in 07

This is incorrect.
This legislation was not brought in by electricians or registered electrical contractors, it was brought in by CER (Commission for Energy Regulation).
In fact most electricians are not at all happy about this development. It has hit the nixer trade hard. Many feel that the real reason behind this was to increase tax revenue.

Here is a quote from the "Decision on the Scope of Restricted Electrical Works" paper:

The Regulatory Objective was stated as:

To protect the safety interests of customers with respect to electrical installation activities through creating a suitable regulatory system, which provides for electrical works to be carried out, tested and certified in compliance with the appropriate technical rules/standards.

Here are some statistics compiled by the ETCI on fatal electrical accidents:
http://www.etci.ie/accidents/tables.html

During the Celtic Tiger years too many "have a go heroes" with more confidence than ability were making modifications to electrical installations.
I would think that this legislation is designed to make people think twice.
The Irish Examiner did an interesting piece on this some time ago.
It states that anyone convicted of being an unregistered electrical contractor carrying out electrical work can face a possible jail for up to three years as well as fine of up to €15,000

See link:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/electricians-could-face-prosecution-237968.html

BTW, although I am a qualified electrician I am not a REC, so I do not benefit from this.
Legally I can't even work on the distribution board in my own home.

altor wrote: »

Is it true that these new regulations only apply to domestic and not commercial premises?

Correct.

kub · 15-04-2014 12:31am

2011 wrote: »

During the Celtic Tiger years too many "have a go heroes" with more confidence than ability were making modifications to electrical installations.

I love that sentence.

KoolKid · 15-04-2014 5:35am

I think this is going to be like our PSA regulations re end users breaking the law. Never policed and never enforced.

15-04-2014 6:44am

KoolKid wrote: »

I think this is going to be like our PSA regulations re end users breaking the law.

Yes.

Never policed and never enforced.

Not completely, there have been a number of prosecutions already.
If there is a "serious incident" I would expect there to be an investigation and an example made of someone.

But obviously policing is very difficult.

KoolKid · 15-04-2014 7:38am

In every psa action taken it would seem the proof would have been there that the end user was also acting illegally.
It seems to me they have made a decision not to prosecute end users.

15-04-2014 9:20am

KoolKid wrote: »

In every psa action taken it would seem the proof would have been there that the end user was also acting illegally.
It seems to me they have made a decision not to prosecute end users.

Apples and oranges.
Believe me CER are a very different outfit than the PSA.

From the newspaper link in my post above:

The CER pointed out that five people on average are killed each year in their home from either direct contact with electricity or from fires with a suspected electrical cause.

It has already taken three successful prosecutions against unregistered workers on gas supplies to homes.

kub · 15-04-2014 9:45pm

I suppose the CER are trying to save lives, the PSA are just the Revenue Commissioners under a different name.

So the first crowd do some good, the second crowd just indirectly collect taxes.

KoolKid · 15-04-2014 11:07pm

And prosecute contractors, but let off end users who break the same law.??????

kub · 15-04-2014 11:10pm

KoolKid wrote: »

And prosecute contractors, but let off end users who break the same law.??????

I wonder can the PSA be prosecuted for false advertising? I think there is a law about that.

I mean what is they say they will happen to someone who employs the services of an unlicensed provider?

Spur for alarm

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