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Traveller houses burnt out **Please Read Mod Warning (posts 6 & 8) before posting**

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  • 25-02-2013 10:11pm
    #1
    periodictable
    Closed Accounts Posts: 931 ✭✭✭


    Here's a link to another episode in the ongoing saga of Traveller accommodation in Ennis:

    http://clare.fm/news/2-houses-damaged-after-fire-ennis-traveller-site

    I drove by there some days back- the site is closed and barricaded and several of the houses had severe fire damage. As a tax payer, I'm somewhat pi***d off at the cost of this accommodation and the complete and utter disregard that some of the occupants have for it.
    I realize that the thought police will be watching every word I write, but frankly enough is enough. Anyone availing of housing from the local authority should be forced to take what is offered, or go to the end of the waiting list, and welfare payments garnished substantially for damage caused. In fact, if someone in public authority housing can afford to run a vehicle, I fail to see what they cannot prioritize and pay rental for accommodation.
    As for whoever burned the houses, perhaps a mandatory minimum of 10 years in the slammer might cause them to repent of their anti-social ways, and upon release, garnishment of welfare payments or wages to pay for the damage.


«13

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    #2
    poppyvally
    Closed Accounts Posts: 341 ✭✭poppyvally


    We're too terrified to add anything. This is a traveler friendly forum. What you say could be used in evidence against you & you might be silenced for an indefinite period


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    #3
    Carry
    Registered Users Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭Carry


    In the link it says 'arson attack', it doesn't say that travelers did it. It could as well be that 'outraged tax-paying citizens' did it.

    I do agree though that arson is despicable. But I don't agree with digging up the pitchforks and go against the usual suspects.
    You find scumbags in all reaches of society - even in banks, government and whatnot...

    And poppyvally, what do you mean with your post?


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    #4
    Carazy
    Registered Users Posts: 395 ✭✭Carazy


    An indication to the cost of the few houses since they were built is given here;
    http://www.clareherald.com/2013/02/two-homes-destroyed-in-ennis-arson.html


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    #5
    ads20101
    Registered Users Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭ads20101


    Carry wrote: »
    In the link it says 'arson attack', it doesn't say that travelers did it. It could as well be that 'outraged tax-paying citizens' did it.

    seriously - do you really believe that?


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    #6
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,924 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Folks,

    The other mods and I aren't more "friendly" towards any group than another, as moderators it is our responsibility to ensure balanced discussion while adhering to the laws of Ireland and the rules of boards.ie, if posters are unable to post within these guidelines then we take action, we do not set out to stifle debate or discussion, we just ensure that people obey the rule

    For posters not sure of how to debate on this topic, a good rule of thumb would be to avoid phrases like "all travellers", phrases that paint an entire ethnic group with the same brush is racist and will not be allowed. Also, due to the laws of Ireland, it is illegal to discuss ongoing legal cases or to speculate as to whoever carried out the crimes, avoid this also.

    If you don't agree with any of this or feel I (or we) are being heavy handed, please open a topic in the feedback forum where it will be reviewed and discussed by the wider board community and the admins.


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    #7
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 13,991 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    This is a genuine comment in case you think I am trying to rise you .....
    For posters not sure of how to debate on this topic, a good rule of thumb would be to avoid phrases like "all travellers", phrases that paint an entire ethnic group with the same brush is racist and will not be allowed.

    I believe that racism does not apply and here is why .....
    Racism is usually defined as views, practices and actions reflecting the belief that humanity is divided into distinct biological groups called races and that members of a certain race share certain attributes which make that group as a whole less desirable, more desirable, inferior or superior.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism
    Ethnicity or ethnic group is a socially defined category based on common culture or nationality.[1][2] Ethnicity can, but does not have to, include common ancestry, appearance, cuisine, dressing style, heritage, history, language or dialect, religion, symbols, traditions, or other cultural factor. Ethnic identity is constantly reinforced through common characteristics which set the group apart from other groups.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group

    I do not believe that any 'anti-traveller' sentiment expressed can be rightfully called racism.

    .... but maybe I am misunderstanding the situation under the laws of Ireland which maybe do recognise 'the travellers' as a separate race and not just a separate ethnic group.


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    #8
    Lady Chatterton
    Registered Users Posts: 19,585 ✭✭✭✭Lady Chatterton


    I do not believe that any 'anti-traveller' sentiment expressed can be rightfully called racism.

    .... but maybe I am misunderstanding the situation under the laws of Ireland which maybe do recognise 'the travellers' as a separate race and not just a separate ethnic group.


    No one has an issue with fair and balanced comment but if posts are offensive or derogatory in nature they may incite hatred.

    Prohibition of Incitement To Hatred Act, 1989

    2.—(1) It shall be an offence for a person—

    (a) to publish or distribute written material,

    (b) to use words, behave or display written material—

    (i) in any place other than inside a private residence, or

    (ii) inside a private residence so that the words, behaviour or material are heard or seen by persons outside the residence,

    or

    (c) to distribute, show or play a recording of visual images or sounds,

    if the written material, words, behaviour, visual images or sounds, as the case may be, are threatening, abusive or insulting and are intended or, having regard to all the circumstances, are likely to stir up hatred.


    Full text can be found on the link below

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1989/en/act/pub/0019/index.html


  • Options
    #9
    periodictable
    Closed Accounts Posts: 931 ✭✭✭periodictable


    Nobody is pointing the finger at Travellers-I suppose anyone could have set these fires.
    To me the bigger issue is lack of respect for public property and the sense of entitlement in the state, yet no corresponding duty or expectation to take care of the property by some of those availing of it.
    http://www.clarepeople.com/2013/02/26/up-in-smoke/

    I wonder if I can apply for a particular "ethnic" status? What are the criteria? Anyone know?


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    #10
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,924 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    @Johnboy1951 and all posters,

    I will not discuss or debate what I have posted above, if you do not agree with it bring it up in feedback or with another mod, I am not a solicitor so I will not be looking for loop holes into the difference between race and ethnic groups.

    Questioning or calling out a moderators decision on thread is normally a banning offence on boards, I will ignore this last 1 but not anymore, there is proper avenues to bring up your questions/queries/issues/problems/concerns, on thread isn't the place.


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    #11
    Palmach
    Registered Users Posts: 974 ✭✭✭Palmach


    6 posts in and a mod has stuck their oar into what was a fairly innocuous discussion. No wonder this place is empty.


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    #12
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,924 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Palmach banned.


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    #13
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Yes. ****** did *** on **.**.****.
    When *** did *** the ***, *** where ***.
    Needles to say, ****** will ***' and *** will be *****.
    Nice weather we're having.


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    #14
    Lady Chatterton
    Registered Users Posts: 19,585 ✭✭✭✭Lady Chatterton


    Dr. Fuzzenstein is on a week off.

    If anyone wants to raise concerns about this thread or the Clare forum in general, please start a thread in 'Feedback'.


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    #15
    pilate 1
    Registered Users Posts: 178 ✭✭pilate 1


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    Yes. ****** did *** on **.**.****.
    When *** did *** the ***, *** where ***.
    Needles to say, ****** will ***' and *** will be *****.
    Nice weather we're having.

    im missing something here. why the ban?for being a smart arse or is there some
    hidden message in above post cause i dont get it.


  • Options
    #16
    Lady Chatterton
    Registered Users Posts: 19,585 ✭✭✭✭Lady Chatterton


    Lets get back on topic - 'Traveller houses burnt out'


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    #17
    CptSternn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭CptSternn


    It's that time of year sure. I remember back when I was a small thing we used to light up caravans around near the end of February. It's perfectly normal behaviour to engage in, boss.


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    #18
    JamBur
    Registered Users Posts: 836 ✭✭✭JamBur


    What a crock of ****e, people aren't even allowed discuss the topic without heavy handed moderation.

    The reality is that most people wouldn't want travellers as neighbours, and that is for a very good reason. Nobody wants hassle on their doorstep. People will come on now and say that they have the greatest traveller neighbours ever, but unfortunately they are the exception that proves the rule.


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    #19
    kstand
    Registered Users Posts: 1,248 ✭✭✭kstand


    Back to the topic ion hand. Clearly this was not the first time that this has happened on this site. The site and houses have cost quite a substantial amount of tax-payers money. Would it not have been prudent for the county council to install CCTV on site while they were in the building process so that anyone caught doing this could have been caught in the act?
    Right now we have had a load of tax-payers money go up in smoke and no leads as to who did it and why - just mad speculation. No finger can be pointed until there is clear evidence here.


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    #20
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    JamBur wrote: »
    What a crock of ****e, people aren't even allowed discuss the topic without heavy handed moderation.
    Certain organisations could bring boards.ie to court if the mods didn't moderate.

    As for the fire, we'll probably find out it's part of a long standing feud.


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    #21
    kstand
    Registered Users Posts: 1,248 ✭✭✭kstand


    the_syco wrote: »
    Certain organisations could bring boards.ie to court if the mods didn't moderate.

    As for the fire, we'll probably find out it's part of a long standing feud.

    This may be so but without CCTV footage to confirm that, it's nothing more than speculation.


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    #22
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    kstand wrote: »
    This may be so but without CCTV footage to confirm that, it's nothing more than speculation.
    I find with feuds, something like this will be seen as a cause after retaliation happens.


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    #23
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,327 ✭✭✭Merch


    kstand wrote: »
    Back to the topic ion hand. Clearly this was not the first time that this has happened on this site. The site and houses have cost quite a substantial amount of tax-payers money. Would it not have been prudent for the county council to install CCTV on site while they were in the building process so that anyone caught doing this could have been caught in the act?
    Right now we have had a load of tax-payers money go up in smoke and no leads as to who did it and why - just mad speculation. No finger can be pointed until there is clear evidence here.

    Why should the Council have to install CCTV? why dont they just put it up everywhere for god sake?
    Why should the taxpayer foot the bill for CCTV or anything else?
    When whats there is destroyed and no one knows what happened, who pays for the monitoring?
    why should it be necessary?

    In fact putting cctv up presupposes there will be trouble, its almost like an accusation, I can see the backlash if that happened, besides if its put up, it will be damaged/stolen, waste of taxpayers money.


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    #24
    Lady Chatterton
    Registered Users Posts: 19,585 ✭✭✭✭Lady Chatterton


    JamBur, the Mods on this forum have absolutely no issue with criticism but if you've issues with us or our decisions you need to start a thread in the Feedback forum.

    I feel it is important that Mods are fair and consistent -

    Palmach received a ban yesterday for this comment:
    Palmach wrote: »
    6 posts in and a mod has stuck their oar into what was a fairly innocuous discussion. No wonder this place is empty.

    So I feel it is appropriate that you receive a ban for your comment:
    JamBur wrote: »
    What a crock of ****e, people aren't even allowed discuss the topic without heavy handed moderation.


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    #25
    kstand
    Registered Users Posts: 1,248 ✭✭✭kstand


    Merch wrote: »
    Why should the Council have to install CCTV? why dont they just put it up everywhere for god sake?
    Why should the taxpayer foot the bill for CCTV or anything else?
    When whats there is destroyed and no one knows what happened, who pays for the monitoring?
    why should it be necessary?

    In fact putting cctv up presupposes there will be trouble, its almost like an accusation, I can see the backlash if that happened, besides if its put up, it will be damaged/stolen, waste of taxpayers money.

    The guts of over a million Euro up in smoke - public money spent on this project, it is not a private estate. The tax payer has already footed a huge bill and for the sake of a few thousand extra, this would have been unnecessary. As for the so-called "backlash" - how long more does the tax-payer and ordinary cash=-strapped citizen have to stand for this sort of thing and see their money literally burned in front of them with nothing done in case it fails to appease a few liberal idiots? I know if it were my home, given to me by the people, that I would only be too happy for them to monitor it to make sure no one attacked it or burned me out.
    I really dont understand your point. If they had CCTV on that site, the perpetrators could be brought to justice. You are going on about the cost of it - whats it going to cost to house these people now?
    Honest, I dont understand the logic of some people. Is it any wonder the country is in the state it is in.


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    #26
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,327 ✭✭✭Merch


    kstand wrote: »
    The guts of over a million Euro up in smoke - public money spent on this project, it is not a private estate. The tax payer has already footed a huge bill and for the sake of a few thousand extra, this would have been unnecessary. As for the so-called "backlash" - how long more does the tax-payer and ordinary cash=-strapped citizen have to stand for this sort of thing and see their money literally burned in front of them with nothing done in case it fails to appease a few liberal idiots? I know if it were my home, given to me by the people, that I would only be too happy for them to monitor it to make sure no one attacked it or burned me out.
    I really dont understand your point. If they had CCTV on that site, the perpetrators could be brought to justice. You are going on about the cost of it - whats it going to cost to house these people now?
    Honest, I dont understand the logic of some people. Is it any wonder the country is in the state it is in.

    I agree with you,

    Im sick of seeing travellers near me in privately rented accomodation paid for by the state driving in new cars, they clearly have money to spend which they are not willing or obliged to pay into rent or mortgage like anyone else.

    I can see where you're coming from in that cctv would only cost a bit extra compared to what was spent, but, a even comprehensive system cannot cover every angle, it will be impossible, someone can get around it by either, damaging the camera or obscuring its view or making themselves unidentifiable by having their face covered. Properties will still be burned down or wrecked, and the CCTV systems will be too, just more waste.
    It makes my blood boil.

    I would be only too happy to have a home provided for me and then secured by being monitored too, Im not up to anything and am not concerned about my comings and goings looking unusual.

    My idea to save a few thousand euro
    Dont instal CCTV
    My idea to save a few million euro, dont waste tax payers money on the sort of thing that ends up in smoke.

    I dont know what the answer is to housing them, they dont want to integrate or stay apart and not behave in a way that isn't acceptable to the rest of society, they dont want to contribute. Accomodations are provided at great cost and are destroyed.

    It would have been better to house these people to the same standard everyone else is, on the housing list and then you take what you are offered or back to the end of the Q, no special treatment.
    Its a bloody joke and not a funny one.


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    #27
    kstand
    Registered Users Posts: 1,248 ✭✭✭kstand


    Merch wrote: »
    I agree with you,

    Im sick of seeing travellers near me in privately rented accomodation paid for by the state driving in new cars, they clearly have money to spend which they are not willing or obliged to pay into rent or mortgage like anyone else.

    I can see where you're coming from in that cctv would only cost a bit extra compared to what was spent, but, a even comprehensive system cannot cover every angle, it will be impossible, someone can get around it by either, damaging the camera or obscuring its view or making themselves unidentifiable by having their face covered. Properties will still be burned down or wrecked, and the CCTV systems will be too, just more waste.
    It makes my blood boil.

    I would be only too happy to have a home provided for me and then secured by being monitored too, Im not up to anything and am not concerned about my comings and goings looking unusual.

    My idea to save a few thousand euro
    Dont instal CCTV
    My idea to save a few million euro, dont waste tax payers money on the sort of thing that ends up in smoke.

    I dont know what the answer is to housing them, they dont want to integrate or stay apart and not behave in a way that isn't acceptable to the rest of society, they dont want to contribute. Accomodations are provided at great cost and are destroyed.

    It would have been better to house these people to the same standard everyone else is, on the housing list and then you take what you are offered or back to the end of the Q, no special treatment.
    Its a bloody joke and not a funny one.

    I would be sickened to a near state of violence if I had saved all my life and behaved myself and bought a house on an estate and then found a year or two down the line that while I was struggling that a family like this could be lumped in a few doors down, for free, contributing nothing and flagrantly abusing what they had with no regard for law or order.
    There should be a ruling whereby private landlords are not allowed by law to rent their houses to the DSS or anyone who can claim off the DSS unless they are students. Let there be government built housing schemes where these people are housed and if they dont like it, then tough - Europe is plenty big these days, plenty of other countries to take them if they dont like the lot they are getting for free in this country.


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    #28
    Lady Chatterton
    Registered Users Posts: 19,585 ✭✭✭✭Lady Chatterton


    kstand wrote: »
    There should be a ruling whereby
    private landlords are not allowed by law to rent their houses to the DSS or anyone who can claim off the DSS unless they are students.

    That proposal is not going to work. Thousands of families rent privately because they can't afford /or do not want to purchase a home of their own. Under your proposal they would have no choice but to go on the local authority housing list, that doesn't make any sense :confused:. Most tenant/landlord arrangements work to the benefit of both parties.

    As for only making properties available to students, not many students would be interested in renting a property in Ennis or Kilrush, students need accommodation near colleges - Limerick, Galway, Dublin, Waterford, Mayo, Letterkenny, Sligo, Cork etc.

    Finally, students (a small minority) have also been know to damage properties too.
    An estimated €10,000 - 15,000 worth of water damage was caused to a Cork household during a house party last Monday night, February 6. The house in question is located next to the university on College Road and is rented by 7 college students. All will be liable to pay for damages.

    http://cork.studenty.me/2012/02/10/estimated-e15000-in-damages-caused-to-household-during-uccs-raise-and-give-week/
    €10,000 damage to house at teen's 'Project X' party

    IN SCENES REMINISCENT OF THE FILM 'PROJECT X', A PARTY FIRST ADVERTISED ON FACEBOOK LEADS TO €10,000 OF DAMAGE AT RENTED SWORDS HOME

    http://www.independent.ie/regionals/fingalindependent/news/10000-damage-to-house-at-teens-project-x-party-29031049.html
    House wrecked as 'Facebook party' descends into chaos

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/house-wrecked-as-facebook-party-descends-into-chaos-29021138.html#sthash.tDd72P5O.dpuf


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    #29
    colm_mcm
    Registered Users Posts: 73,384 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    Don't they have CCTV in some housing estates already? Seem to remember a mate who lived in waterpark saying there was cameras there?


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    #30
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,327 ✭✭✭Merch


    MrsD007 wrote: »

    As for only making properties available to students, not many students would be interested in renting a property in Ennis or Kilrush, students need accommodation near colleges - Limerick, Galway, Dublin, Waterford, Mayo, Letterkenny, Sligo, Cork etc.

    Finally, students (a small minority) have also been know to damage properties too.



    http://cork.studenty.me/2012/02/10/estimated-e15000-in-damages-caused-to-household-during-uccs-raise-and-give-week/



    http://www.independent.ie/regionals/fingalindependent/news/10000-damage-to-house-at-teens-project-x-party-29031049.html



    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/house-wrecked-as-facebook-party-descends-into-chaos-29021138.html#sthash.tDd72P5O.dpuf

    While not good, None of those houses was burned to the ground.
    The total damage there, which is pretty bad, doesnt approach the cost or damage mentioned above.
    Which is a cost borne by the tax payer, not like the examples by students.


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    #31
    Lady Chatterton
    Registered Users Posts: 19,585 ✭✭✭✭Lady Chatterton


    Merch wrote: »
    While not good, None of those houses was burned to the ground.
    The total damage there, which is pretty bad, doesnt approach the cost or damage mentioned above.
    Which is a cost borne by the tax payer, not like the examples by students.
    I agree that damage wasn't as bad but I was replying to K Stand's post - he felt it would be better if properties were only given to students instead of people claiming rent allowance.

    A close friend of my mine lives close to student accommodation as she has told me some real horror stories about houses that have destroyed by tenants. In many cases the landlord wins their court cases but the defendants can't/won't the damages due to him/her.


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