What Is The Best Value For Money Public Transport

foggy_lad · 19-05-2013 1:20am #1

Mile for Mile what do people think is the best value public transport? Include all forms of mass transport in your deliberations please, plane, train and bus and also all operators public and private.

My own would be bus/coaches because of the flexibility and speed, I would also pick privates over state operators because they appear to be doing a lot more with their funding than the state companies with all they receive each year.

BenShermin · 19-05-2013 1:27am

In Ireland? Surely it has to be Aircoach and GoBÉ services on the Dublin to Cork Route.

€9 single on Aircoach buys you 259KM, or €0.035 a kilometer.

Hilly Bill · 19-05-2013 1:32am

I think they all are to some degree. Intercity buses , Dart and commuter within the short hop zone, Dublin bus , cheap flights when available to the uk with Ryanair or Aer lingus . Sail and rail to London for €46 is really good value so for me i would say the sail and rail is the best value.

foggy_lad · 19-05-2013 1:35am

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I think they all are to some degree. Intercity buses , Dart and commuter within the short hop zone, Dublin bus , cheap flights when available to the uk with Ryanair or Aer lingus . Sail and rail to London for €46 is really good value so for me i would say the sail and rail is the best value.

Yes I agree about Dart and Commuter services being great for what they are especially the northern commuter and the new portlaoise commuter services operated by 22000s but they are quite a bit more expensive than similar journeys by bus with little benefit in speed outside of peak times.

TheJak01 · 19-05-2013 1:39am

Depends on distance really. For very short distances it's going to be the bus, due to practicality and frequent stops.

When considering travel around Dublin, if on the Dart line it is by far the best value for money, simply due the speed it operates at in comparison to Dublin bus. Luas doesn't have quite the same advantages as it uses the road for much of it's route, but I'd still argue that due to it's time advantage, it's be better value for money. This of course assuming that fares for bus and rail are roughly similar, which they seem to be in Dublin.

For intercity transport, as much as I'd love to say rail, it has to be bus. It's just so much cheaper without being an awful lot slower or compromising on comfort. Rail has potential to completely trump bus for this service, but not only would prices need to come down, but journey times would need to decrease too. Unfortunately, in a small country like Ireland bringing in a faster line doesn't make an awful lot of sense, and for that reason I can see Bus being king for years to come. Other than major Routes, I can't see Irish rail surviving in it's current form, bus just comes across so much cheaper without much compromise.

keith16 · 19-05-2013 1:41am

I have to say it's the DART. A big invitation to "see you in court" every time you walk in to the station. How nice.

Richard Logue · 19-05-2013 1:45am

Well Irish Rail's family tickets offer good value for a family of two adults and up to four children on Intercity trains. The fare between Dublin and Cork is €99.

Source: http://www.irishrail.ie/index.jsp?p=118&n=277

BenShermin · 19-05-2013 1:47am

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Sail and rail to London for €46 is really good value so for me i would say the sail and rail is the best value.

Superb value, I use sailrail whenever I have the time.

You can get Eurolines from Dublin to London for €53 return if booked in advance, cheap, but it's a really horrible journey.

Hilly Bill · 19-05-2013 1:47am

foggy_lad wrote: »

Yes I agree about Dart and Commuter services being great for what they are especially the northern commuter and the new portlaoise commuter services operated by 22000s but they are quite a bit more expensive than similar journeys by bus with little benefit in speed outside of peak times.

Which is quicker to skerries, train or dublin bus?

Hilly Bill · 19-05-2013 1:49am

BenShermin wrote: »

Superb value, I use sailrail whenever I have the time.

You can get Eurolines from Dublin to London for €52 return if booked in advance, cheap, but it's a really horrible journey.

Is it bad? its booked out a lot.

Hilly Bill · 19-05-2013 1:52am

Richard Logue wrote: »

Well Irish Rail's family tickets offer good value for a family of two adults and up to four children on Intercity trains. The fare between Dublin and Cork is €99.

Source: http://www.irishrail.ie/index.jsp?p=118&n=277

You can get a 3 day unlimited bus and rail for that price.

MGWR · 19-05-2013 6:36am

foggy_lad wrote: »

Mile for Mile what do people think is the best value public transport? Include all forms of mass transport in your deliberations please, plane, train and bus and also all operators public and private.

My own would be bus/coaches because of the flexibility and speed, I would also pick privates over state operators because they appear to be doing a lot more with their funding than the state companies with all they receive each year.

I've never been on a bus that has done 125 mph. I think I would feel unsafe in the bus at that speed. I've been on trains running at that speed though.

When one says "mile for mile" then one has to include all aspects, such as heat efficiency (not only the motor but also the tyres), passenger capacity versus all of that, et cetera. "Flexibility" is strictly down to availability of alignment, and when the government is in control of the whole thing, then they may limit one mode while not assigning a limit to another mode. (Consider the absence of trolleybus wires in Ireland, something that would improve the efficiency of a bus as a mode by itself.)

the groutch · 19-05-2013 8:00am

in before someone says "Free Travel Pass".

but the 30 day rambler (Dublin Bus) for me, unlimited travel anywhere in the city for €4.17 a day(or less if you stocked up before the last increase)

and also Dublin Bikes when it gets expanded further. €10 a year for as many 30 minute cycles as you want is stonking value.

Cookie_Monster · 19-05-2013 9:02am

On a per kilometre (we don't use miles any more) basis it'd be hard to beat Ryanair, sure the bus/train to / from the airports will often cost you more.

corktina · 19-05-2013 9:54am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

On a per kilometre (we don't use miles any more) basis it'd be hard to beat Ryanair, sure the bus/train to / from the airports will often cost you more.

we do on the Railways....

ThreeBlindMice · 19-05-2013 12:01pm

And no one so far has mentioned Dublin Bikes.

For just €20 a year and if you play the timing right you can have the use of the system.

Also Dart + Bring your own bike.

Since the Dart started allowing bikes on board it is a long time since I have driven into the city center particularly off peak and weekends.

BenShermin · 19-05-2013 7:55pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Is it bad? its booked out a lot.

It's one of those things to try once in your life

I took it once to Birmingham and the sight of homeless people and the stench of piss in Digbith bus station at 5am was a welcome relief. That's how bad I found it.

The great thing about GoBÉ, Citylink etc is that you're never more than 3hrs sitting beside someone. Although I've met nothing but genuine characters on intercity buses in Ireland, the Eurolines on the other hand.

Con Logue · 19-05-2013 8:22pm

Walking is the most cost effective means of transportation there is.

I have done the bus from London to Dublin and all I can say is that it was an experience. One that I won't be in a hurry to repeat

devnull · 19-05-2013 8:28pm

I've done it once as well from London to Dublin since I had no choice and whilst it wasn't terrible, it's not something I'd ever want to repeat I just got to London so damn tired and the same in Dublin on the way back, fell asleep on the ferry in the bar unintentionally on the way back through sheer tiredness since the passenger next to be on the bus was drunk as a skunk and burping and nudging me the whole damn way to Holyhead.

ThreeBlindMice · 19-05-2013 8:57pm

Con Logue wrote: »

I have done the bus from London to Dublin and all I can say is that it was an experience. One that I won't be in a hurry to repeat

I think that trip is reserved for students on a shoestring, it was about 25 years ago since I did that trip.

Cookie_Monster · 20-05-2013 12:41am

ThreeBlindMice wrote: »

And no one so far has mentioned Dublin Bikes.

For just €20 a year and if you play the timing right you can have the use of the system.

I was going to but the time limit makes it rather expensive after a point. For short CC trips it's fantastic but at the same time it is not designed nor suited to med to longer trips around the greater Dublin area so loses out somewhat.

BenShermin · 20-05-2013 2:30am

The Dublin Bus city centre fare is also good value if you're feeling lazy. I think I paid €0.55 Leap from Connolly Station to Werburgh Street last week.

dowlingm · 20-05-2013 6:49pm

MGWR wrote: »

I've never been on a bus that has done 125 mph. I think I would feel unsafe in the bus at that speed. I've been on trains running at that speed though.

*blinks* I thought this thread referred to transport that exists in Ireland.

MGWR · 20-05-2013 7:46pm

dowlingm wrote: »

*blinks* I thought this thread referred to transport that exists in Ireland.

Ireland isn't the whole world, no matter the insular attitude of some (and don't forget that the EU is trying to wrest Ireland's national identity away from it anyhow). Best practice of modes of transport that are worldwide ought not be out of play.

MGWR · 20-05-2013 7:57pm

BenShermin wrote: »

The Dublin Bus city centre fare is also good value if you're feeling lazy. I think I paid €0.55 Leap from Connolly Station to Werburgh Street last week

That's a distance of 1.24 miles. If DB is trying to get more commuters to use the bus versus driving, having the buses jammed up with short-distance passengers (and hence slowing down the bus' average speed in an already-congested city) won't leave a space on board for that market segment.

LXFlyer · 21-05-2013 9:22am

MGWR wrote: »

That's a distance of 1.24 miles. If DB is trying to get more commuters to use the bus versus driving, having the buses jammed up with short-distance passengers (and hence slowing down the bus' average speed in an already-congested city) won't leave a space on board for that market segment.

Last time I checked, buses are a form of public transport and as such are there for all users no matter how far they're travelling.

I haven't noticed buses being particularly jammed with short distance travellers, but frankly the company is perfectly entitled to try and encourage use from any source.

Cookie_Monster · 21-05-2013 9:27am

lxflyer wrote: »

Last time I checked, buses are a form of public transport and as such are there for all users no matter how far they're travelling.

I haven't noticed buses being particularly jammed with short distance travellers, but frankly the company is perfectly entitled to try and encourage use from any source.

Tell that to the users of the likes of the 7B who can't get the bus home because dozens of people going only to Foxrock or shorter can't be bothered waiting an extra 30 seconds for a 46a or 145...

There needs to be some level of control of some routes.

Vahevala · 21-05-2013 9:29am

Since being a victim of a mugging, I no longer feel safe walking on some streets in Dublin city centre so the city centre fare is a godsend to help me avoid some streets that I don't feel comfortable walking in.

Vahevala · 21-05-2013 9:30am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Tell that to the users of the likes of the 7B who can't get the bus home because dozens of people going only to Foxrock or shorter can't be bothered waiting an extra 30 seconds for a 46a or 145...

There needs to be some level of control of some routes.

It is public transport, people are entitled to get whatever bus that they choose.

LXFlyer · 21-05-2013 9:48am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Tell that to the users of the likes of the 7B who can't get the bus home because dozens of people going only to Foxrock or shorter can't be bothered waiting an extra 30 seconds for a 46a or 145...

There needs to be some level of control of some routes.

And what relevance has that to the city centre fare????

bk · 21-05-2013 1:49pm

Vahevala wrote: »

It is public transport, people are entitled to get whatever bus that they choose.

Of course, but ticket pricing (and bus stops serviced) can be designed to encourage/discourage certain types of travel.

For instance that is why the Luas is relatively expensive for short journeys. To discourage them and instead encourage long distance travel on it.

Typically with public transport systems you want to encourage long distance travel, while instead encouraging people to walk or cycle for short distances.

Safety on the street should be an issue for the Gardai and City Council to solve, not public transport.

bk · 21-05-2013 1:56pm

This is a difficult question to answer as it really depends on where you are going.

Ryanair if you get an early cheap ticket is probably one of the best value for money. This weekend I was in Poland for €50 return, that is €0.021 per km!!

The intercity bus services also offer superb value for money at around €0.04 per km

Dublin City Bike service is an absolute steal at just €10 per year!

Walking is obviously the ultimate in cheap travel.

A bike is also fantastic value for money. With the cycle to work scheme it can work out even less.

Bike + Dart for longer distances is pretty good value.

BenShermin · 21-05-2013 2:30pm

MGWR wrote: »

That's a distance of 1.24 miles. If DB is trying to get more commuters to use the bus versus driving, having the buses jammed up with short-distance passengers (and hence slowing down the bus' average speed in an already-congested city) won't leave a space on board for that market segment.

If anything buses not having double doors and very slow Leap card response times from the drivers ticket machine are more responsible for slowing down average speeds. On the cross city routes especially you have many people boarding and alighting at each of the city centre stops, one or two city centre fare users isn't going to slow things down too much in the grand scheme of things.

Problems with the 7b could be sorted out if Dublin Bus made some effort to make some buses express only. The farce that is Xpresso shows that the will just isn't there.

Vahevala · 21-05-2013 3:24pm

bk wrote: »

Of course, but ticket pricing (and bus stops serviced) can be designed to encourage/discourage certain types of travel.

For instance that is why the Luas is relatively expensive for short journeys. To discourage them and instead encourage long distance travel on it.

Typically with public transport systems you want to encourage long distance travel, while instead encouraging people to walk or cycle for short distances.

Safety on the street should be an issue for the Gardai and City Council to solve, not public transport.

Who are you to say how people should travel? If I want to get on for 3 stops and I have a valid ticket, why should I not travel. It is public transport and there for a reason.

Not everyone is fit enough to be able to use a bike or feel comfortable to do so. 50/55 cent to hop around Dublin city centre is a good option for many.

bk · 21-05-2013 3:49pm

Vahevala wrote: »

Who are you to say how people should travel? If I want to get on for 3 stops and I have a valid ticket, why should I not travel. It is public transport and there for a reason.

Yes and as I said you are fully entitled to do so.

But the people who design and run public transport systems are also entitled to design the system in such a way that is discourages short distance travel.

And discouraging short distance travel is considered best practice in the public transport sector.

Vahevala wrote: »

Not everyone is fit enough to be able to use a bike or feel comfortable to do so. 50/55 cent to hop around Dublin city centre is a good option for many.

Elderly and disabled persons get free travel anyway. Everyone else should be more then capable of walking/cycling.

markpb · 21-05-2013 3:50pm

Vahevala wrote: »

Who are you to say how people should travel? If I want to get on for 3 stops and I have a valid ticket, why should I not travel. It is public transport and there for a reason.

Save the outrage - he's not saying you shouldn't be allowed, just that it shouldn't be encouraged. If DB want to encourage or discourage custom from a particular type of passenger, they have every right to do so.

Vahevala · 21-05-2013 3:57pm

bk wrote: »

Yes and as I said you are fully entitled to do so.

But the people who design and run public transport systems are also entitled to design the system in such a way that is discourages short distance travel.

And discouraging short distance travel is considered best practice in the public transport sector.

Elderly and disabled persons get free travel anyway. Everyone else should be more then capable of walking/cycling.

Some doctors may disagree with you. Not everyone will be able to cycle, which is a fact. Don't they say that you should visit your doctor, before embarking on an exercise regime. Not everyone would feel safe (including me) to cycle a bike and don't wish to lose their life doing so..

You may feel well able to ride a bike, other people are not happy doing so, for instance, I find it particularly dangerous and feel vulnerable on a bike, so I think I will stick to my Dublin Bus for the short distances

Tazz T · 21-05-2013 4:07pm

Pick any date during June Dublin to Stansted with Ryanair at the moment and it's €40 return, which beats Sail & Rail hands down.

BenShermin · 21-05-2013 4:10pm

Vahevala wrote: »

Some doctors may disagree with you. Not everyone will be able to cycle, which is a fact. Don't they say that you should visit your doctor, before embarking on an exercise regime. Not everyone would feel safe (including me) to cycle a bike and don't wish to lose their life doing so.

Cycling a short distance is not an exercise regime, it's a means of transport. An average of 5,000 trips are taken on a Dublin Bike everyday and none of them trips turn into fatality.

BenShermin · 21-05-2013 4:12pm

Tazz T wrote: »

Pick any date during June Dublin to Stansted with Ryanair at the moment and it's €40 return, which beats Sail & Rail hands down.

I assume that's also covering your Stansted Express to London and all the luggage you want?

bk · 21-05-2013 4:22pm

Vahevala wrote: »

Some doctors may disagree with you. Not everyone will be able to cycle, which is a fact. Don't they say that you should visit your doctor, before embarking on an exercise regime. Not everyone would feel safe (including me) to cycle a bike and don't wish to lose their life doing so..

This is advise to people thinking of taking up serious long distance, high speed cycling (or any similar high impact activity or sport).

The Dublin Bus City Fare zone covers an area of only 1.6km

That isn't exercise on a bike, certainly not a Dublin Bike type bike.

It is also only a max 20 minutes walk. Again any able bodied person (remember disabled persons get free travel) should be able to easily do that journey on foot.

Vahevala wrote: »

You may feel well able to ride a bike, other people are not happy doing so, for instance, I find it particularly dangerous and feel vulnerable on a bike, so I think I will stick to my Dublin Bus for the short distances

There hasn't been a single fatal accident on the Dublin City bike scheme. Traffic is slow in the city center, it really isn't dangerous.

Please do keep using the service. All I'm saying is that I wouldn't be surprised when Dublin Bus scrap this cheap fare.

BenShermin · 21-05-2013 4:50pm

bk wrote: »

There hasn't been a single fatal accident on the Dublin City bike scheme. Traffic is slow in the city center, it really isn't dangerous.

Just reading into this. Unfortunately there was one fatality on Westmoreland Street last year:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/cyclist-who-died-after-fall-was-not-wearing-helmet-court-told-1.533067

It seems it was one of the few cases where a helmet would have saved his life. If you feel that cycling is dangerous and makes you vunerable then you'd probably have a helmet on. There's also the fact that the cyclist was "not drunk, but not sober". Any cyclist that feels vunerable would not cycle with drink taken regardless. I sum up that this fatality wouldn't have happened to any nervous cyclist.

Vahevala · 21-05-2013 4:55pm

bk wrote: »

Please do keep using the service. All I'm saying is that I wouldn't be surprised when Dublin Bus scrap this cheap fare.

Don't worry I have a monthly ticket

MGWR · 21-05-2013 6:59pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Last time I checked, buses are a form of public transport and as such are there for all users no matter how far they're travelling.

I haven't noticed buses being particularly jammed with short distance travellers, but frankly the company is perfectly entitled to try and encourage use from any source

Then the one-to-three-stage fare is actually losing money for the company due to its availability versus actual use and the fact that is an extra accounting item. Even with companies with flat fares, passengers travelling about 1 to 2 miles pay the fare. From the perspective of a passenger, two things sell a bus service aside from a reasonably low fare, those being reasonably high frequency and a reasonably high average speed—in combination.

LXFlyer · 21-05-2013 7:46pm

The only low short fare journey is for city centre trips. That is hardly going to cause mass havoc.

It was designed so that shoppers could get from one side of the city centre cheaply. I really fail to see the issue here.

devnull · 21-05-2013 8:20pm

Agree completely, but when I used the bus regularly not long after the CC fare was brought in some drivers refused to issue it as they did not agree with it citing reasons that have been given above.

I'd hope that has been stamped out now since that is not a job of a driver. Have they also made the fare any easier to issue, rather than the few buttons it needs when it could be programmed for one?

BenShermin · 21-05-2013 8:47pm

lxflyer wrote: »

The only low short fare journey is for city centre trips. That is hardly going to cause mass havoc.

It was designed so that shoppers could get from one side of the city centre cheaply. I really fail to see the issue here.

Have to agree, one or two passengers getting city centre fares isn't going to slow the bus down, especially at off peak times. The real issue here is Dublin Bus's failure to introduce proper express routes at peak times, this would really speed up average journey times for the bread and butter 9 to 5 commuter. These are the people who you need to target to get out of their cars and grow the passenger base.

The best example of this is the minimum fare on the 66/67 routes at peak times to discourage people from Islandbridge and Chapelizod from using the service. Customers can use the 25/26 routes instead.

The worst example is scrapping the 78 route under Network Direct, this was well utilised in the morning and evening rush by Ballyfermot commuters who wished to avoid the James's Street and Kilmainham bottleneck and instead enjoy a quicker North Quay/N4 route home.

bikeman1 · 21-05-2013 9:59pm

The minimum fare to discourage short hop journey on long routes at peak times is not really working anymore. A huge number of passengers now use pre paid cards such as 30 day rambler / travel 90, thus sailing past the driver on a minimum fare bus and then a few minutes into the journey. Ding and up they get!

I have seen this happen a few times on the 42 in the evening peak. Often leaving pax behind because there is no more room. I agree a better service needs to be introduced for such routes.

Cookie_Monster · 23-05-2013 1:58am

Vahevala wrote: »

It is public transport, people are entitled to get whatever bus that they choose.

Indeed and with the current fair system they will continue to do so, it's up to DB to put restrictions on to encourage behaviour patterns. My point was simply that those few going a short distance on this particular bus (and many other routes) are actively depriving others of space on the only bus they can get despite there being far far more options for those travelling short distances.

lxflyer wrote: »

And what relevance has that to the city centre fare????

nothing (well 7b operates in the short hop zone too), but it's still relevant to short hop customers blocking longer trips customers from accessing a very limited bus

Vahevala wrote:

Not everyone would feel safe (including me) to cycle a bike and don't wish to lose their life doing so..

Do you feel safe in a car, it's far more dangerous after all...
That safety argument is one of the most ridiculous ones thrown up.

Polar101 · 23-05-2013 10:04am

Paid 1.45 cents/km on Ryanair two days ago. That is probably better value than my normal commute, which is around 30 cents/km on Dublin Bus (unless I walk).

What Is The Best Value For Money Public Transport

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