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contradictions between allies in the war of independence

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    #62
    Shutuplaura
    Registered Users Posts: 463 ✭✭Shutuplaura


    I don't think its surprising at all. In fact I think most independence/national liberation movements would be the same, although admittedly this is a hunch.

    Essentially the republican movement was a collection of diverse people who believed that whatever Ireland's future shape should take, it would be better without British interference.


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    #63
    Shutuplaura
    Registered Users Posts: 463 ✭✭Shutuplaura


    CDfm wrote: »
    Britain had a cheap food policy.

    Just take one firm the Vestey family. Refrigeration allowed them to expand globally - to source food and produce food for Britain. They were the Dunnes Stores of meat and eggs.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestey_Group

    So when DeV went to London in 1938 - he was flogging beef and competing with them by selling cattle on the hoof.

    So Irelands importance for food lessened by technological advances.

    Frank Hardy has a great short story based on true events about encountering an Irish republican cop in central Australia when he went there to cover the Aboriginal strikes at the Vestey's Wave Station Ranch. As an old Aussie communist he treated the cop with a fair amount of distruct but as they talked the Irish cop started comparing the strike to parts of the Irish independence struggle.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurindji_strike

    The Vesteys were the inspiration behind the ranchers featured in Australia - that Baz Lurhman film.


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    #64
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    The british forces werent exactily a unified front eithere, Some in the RIC Resented the Black and Tans. There have been several accounts of friction between the Auxileries and the army. Many RIC men turned informer for the IRA, There was an RIC muteny in Tralee and The counaght rangers also mutinied.


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    #65
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    deise go deo wrote: »
    The british forces werent exactily a unified front eithere, Some in the RIC Resented the Black and Tans. There have been several accounts of friction between the Auxileries and the army. Many RIC men turned informer for the IRA, There was an RIC muteny in Tralee and The counaght rangers also mutinied.

    The RIC widely resented the black and Tans because they were not qualified policemen, they were transparant thugs. They made their job a lot harder. Most RIC in Ireland were good people, respected members of the community who suddenly were expected to deal with a revolution. There is an undercurrent of tragedy to their story.


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    #66
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Indeed there is, There even seams to be a certain thread of sympathy for their plight going through the books I have read on the time, The republicans have said that they only went after those RIC men who worked actively against them, and that those who confined themselves to countering criminal activity were left alone, They seamed more ready to praise the RIC aswell, in an account of one ambush the IRA leader made the point that The two RIC men in a convey of tans were the only ones to offer resistance when attacked, and accounts often say that the RIC steped in to save prisoners from the worst excesses of the tans when they could.


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    #67
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Indeed there is, There even seams to be a certain thread of sympathy for their plight going through the books I have read on the time, The republicans have said that they only went after those RIC men who worked actively against them, and that those who confined themselves to countering criminal activity were left alone, They seamed more ready to praise the RIC aswell, in an account of one ambush the IRA leader made the point that The two RIC men in a convey of tans were the only ones to offer resistance when attacked, and accounts often say that the RIC steped in to save prisoners from the worst excesses of the tans when they could.

    I wrote my thesis on the war of independence in southern UIlster (Ie, county Monaghan) and I read an account of a local commander that stated that his neighbour provided information to the IRA on the condition that they would deliberately not target his comrades. The IRA commander agreed to do so. There wasn't really any groundswell of hatred aimed at the RIC, the Tans were the real enemy. In fact I would go so far as to say that public support for the IRA would have dried up if the Tans hadn't been introduced and if the RIC remained public enemy number one for the IRA.


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    #68
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    People lived normal lives to, got up , went to work , got colds, you had criminals, saints, scholars and murderers too.

    So you had a mutual life thing.

    Ireland was the RIC mens home too.


    R.I.C._edited.jpg
    The men who filled the rank and file, were mainly sons of farmers, strong and honest individuals, who fulfilled an important social and administrative role. In the community, individual policemen were popular and respected. They were the administrators of the 1901 and 1911 Census. The latter is now freely available on the internet. The RIC men residing in the Barracks throughout Ireland in 1911 are registered in the Census.

    In the history of the RIC there were not always troubles times, as in the 1890`s, the Constabulary settled down to a relative peaceful policing of the country but no one was to know how Ireland would change violently after 1916. Ironically the RIC thought ( it was reported years later) that the insurrection would occur in 1915.

    Check out this site

    http://royalirishconstabulary.webs.com/


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    #69
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    CDfm wrote: »
    People lived normal lives to, got up , went to work , got colds, you had criminals, saints, scholars and murderers too.

    So you had a mutual life thing.

    Ireland was the RIC mens home too


    They were put in a very difficult position, and in fairness to them they managed to behave in a far more honourable way than you might expect concidering the conditions they found themselves in, I think the IRA generally recognised this and tended to be relativly fair minded in relation to them.


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    #70
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    deise go deo wrote: »
    They were put in a very difficult position, and in fairness to them they managed to behave in a far more honourable way than you might expect concidering the conditions they found themselves in, I think the IRA generally recognised this and tended to be relativly fair minded in relation to them.

    Looking at the 1911 Census Returns for my Great Grandfathers family -it was conducted by an RIC man.


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    #71
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    deise go deo wrote: »
    They were put in a very difficult position, and in fairness to them they managed to behave in a far more honourable way than you might expect concidering the conditions they found themselves in, I think the IRA generally recognised this and tended to be relativly fair minded in relation to them.

    I think the general attitude was that the RIC were not the real enemy. In fact of any of the accounts I've read there wasn't any real malice directed at them personally. Dan Breen for example was given some handgun ammunition by a Dublin policeman! The Dublin police are a good example, they were allowed to do routine policework unimpeded as they didn't engage in intelligence operations. The RIC filed county inspector reports which directly reported on IRA activity in their area. Thus they were targets.


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    #72
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    CDfm wrote: »
    Britain had a cheap food policy.

    Just take one firm the Vestey family. Refrigeration allowed them to expand globally - to source food and produce food for Britain. They were the Dunnes Stores of meat and eggs.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestey_Group

    So when DeV went to London in 1938 - he was flogging beef and competing with them by selling cattle on the hoof.

    So Irelands importance for food lessened by technological advances.

    Refrigeration wasn't a new thing at that time, Argentina and Brazil had been exporting beef to Europe for decades at that stage but there was still a market for Irish beef in England.


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    #73
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    brianthebard wrote: »
    Refrigeration wasn't a new thing at that time, Argentina and Brazil had been exporting beef to Europe for decades at that stage but there was still a market for Irish beef in England.

    Yes but the Vesteys and their like were able to do so on a huge scale and had their own fleet.

    There was a market for Irish beef because of its quality but there were alternatives.

    So thats the reason I am bringing it up is to draw attention to it -is that the world changed. At the time of the War of Independence you still had sail ships between the UK & Ireland and steam boats,you also had the development of diesel engines between the wars.

    The Titanic was steam powered.

    DeValera had to bone up that the world had moved on.


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    #74
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Denerick wrote: »
    I think the general attitude was that the RIC were not the real enemy. In fact of any of the accounts I've read there wasn't any real malice directed at them personally. Dan Breen for example was given some handgun ammunition by a Dublin policeman! The Dublin police are a good example, they were allowed to do routine policework unimpeded as they didn't engage in intelligence operations. The RIC filed county inspector reports which directly reported on IRA activity in their area. Thus they were targets.


    Indeed they were targets, RIC men died in many ambushes, some, though not many, were shot after capture, there was a war on after all, however from what I have read I feel that there was a general will to treat each other with a certain level of respect. There was malice directed at some individuals but on the whole I dont think they were bitter twords each other, unlike the IRA and the tans.


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    #75
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Did any of the RIC join the Gardai - how did it work ?

    Was the prosecution of crimes and the handover affected. Were crimes prosecuted or was there an amnesty.??


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    #76
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    CDfm wrote: »
    Did any of the RIC join the Gardai - how did it work ?

    Was the prosecution of crimes and the handover affected. Were crimes prosecuted or was there an amnesty.??


    Quite a few as far as I know, I skimmed through a book listing every member there had been of the RIC in a library, A good few had garda listed at the end of their info.

    Not sure about procecusions, havent heard anything about them though.


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    #77
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    CDfm wrote: »
    Did any of the RIC join the Gardai - how did it work ?

    Was the prosecution of crimes and the handover affected. Were crimes prosecuted or was there an amnesty.??

    Many RIC and former British army soldiers joined the Free State army. And subsequently the Guards. Fearghal McGarry wrote a great biography of Eoin O'Duffy, the first commissioner (It really is a great book, it illuminates the war the whole 1916-1940s era very well) if you're interested.


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    #78
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Denerick wrote: »
    Many RIC and former British army soldiers joined the Free State army. And subsequently the Guards. Fearghal McGarry wrote a great biography of Eoin O'Duffy, the first commissioner (It really is a great book, it illuminates the war the whole 1916-1940s era very well) if you're interested.

    it is - i will look for it

    it is very interesting that you see George Plant brought up a bit but usually in isolation.

    http://fethard.com/reports/george_plant.html

    He was involved in a post office robbery and an execution style killing. Executed in 1942 this was exactly the type of activity the Anti treaty side had been involved in during the Civil War.

    Now, the deal on the table at the time was to renounce activity etc or face the penalties. Certainly, I knew some guys my grandfather knew who had taken this option and were even fixed up with houses and jobs.

    This is not one of them but you get the idea

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Hayes_(Irish_republican)

    Take Maurice O'Neill listed here -executed for shooting at police. Brendan Behans family feared would happen him after this incident

    http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/ireland.html

    The bones of the story are here - but the real deal was that Behan grabbed a gun off one of the firing party at an IRA funeral and fired at detectives. There was no need for it and no doubt in that context the Quare Fellow is a totally different experience.


    Not long out of Borstal in England, Behan was arrested after a shoot out with detectives about to arrest an I.R.A. man in Glasnevin Cemetery in Dublin. Convicted of attempted murder, Behan was sentenced to fourteen years and sent to Mountjoy Prison. Again prison served Behan well; through the governor's invitation, Behan met Sean O'Faolain who encouraged Behan as a writer. Indeed, his first published work paralled Behan's time in Mountjoy. He also acquired the material for his play The Quare Fellow, and he learned Irish from Sean O'Brian, a fellow inmate and teacher from Kerry http://www.irish-society.org/Hedgemaster%20Archives/behan.htm



    So in that way you can see a progression from the DeV who signed the oath of allegience with a pencil, used the Statute of Westminster to rewrite parts of the Treaty and the DeV that hedged his bets and held off declaring a republic.






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    #79
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Its easy to forget the Limerick Soviet but here is a nice link

    http://www.marxist.com/commemoration-limerick-soviet.htm
    However, the Limerick Soviet was to be the first of many struggles in the county for the next few years. More Strikes were to follow with the establisment of other local Soviets by the farm labourers and dairy workers of Limerick County. Also, there were many communists in the Limerick IRA that played a prominent role in the War of Irish Independence (1919 to 1921) and the Civil War (1922 to 1923). But such events in Limerick, sadly, play a less recognised part in Irish history and communism did not become a respectable ideology here, unlike certain countries in Europe.

    I imagine selling Communism to the Kukaks in Clare was always going to be a hard sell

    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/324575/kulak
    But the Strike was set to escalate at national level. Already, other Irish Trade Union Councils were sending supplies to their comrades in Limerick and even Irish labourers in Britain were Striking in support. But by the end of mid April, the Church and the British led TUC waned in support. It was difficult for the people of Limerick to sustain this struggle on their own. After much heated negotiation with the Irish representatives of the TUC, it was agreed that British Martial Law would be lifted in return for ending the Strike. A few days after the people of Limerick returned to work, the British troops were withdrawn. No doubt, this industrial action was a great success at local level, but an ideal opportunity for an international Strike within Britain and Ireland was lost.


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    #80
    mikemac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    Denerick wrote: »
    Fearghal McGarry wrote a great biography of Eoin O'Duffy, the first commissioner (It really is a great book, it illuminates the war the whole 1916-1940s era very well) if you're interested.

    I hope the book didn't mention he was the first commissoner. One of the most well known commisioners but he wasn't the first.

    That was Michael Staines, in the job for 7 months or so
    It's a very popular pub quiz question which most people get wrong

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Staines


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    #81
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    feelingstressed wrote: »
    I hope the book didn't mention he was the first commissoner. One of the most well known commisioners but he wasn't the first.

    That was Michael Staines, in the job for 7 months or so
    It's a very popular pub quiz question which most people get wrong

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Staines

    Well there you go. I assume the book makes note of that, I did read it a couple of years ago so do forgive me!


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    #82
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Denerick wrote: »
    Well there you go. I assume the book makes note of that, I did read it a couple of years ago so do forgive me!

    Note to self. Do not join any pub quiz teams that Denerick is on :D

    I thought I would have had more of a reaction to the Limerick Soviet and the Industrialised North as a huge ideological divide.


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    #83
    Duffy the Vampire Slayer
    Registered Users Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭Duffy the Vampire Slayer


    Denerick wrote: »
    These two counties were almost non existant during the war.

    Although Mayo didnt have the same level of activity as Cork or Tipperary it wasnt non-existent. In the later months of the war there some large-scale ambushes particularly in the west of the county.


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    #84
    nuac
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,769 Mod ✭✭✭✭nuac


    Yes, especially at Carrowkennedy.

    That ambush was said to be instru
    mental in persuading the British to make the Truce


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    #85
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    nuac wrote: »
    Yes, especially at Carrowkennedy.

    That ambush was said to be instru
    mental in persuading the British to make the Truce

    Bumping old threads is OK only if there is something new to add that is relevant to the discussion, i.e. if there was a new source supporting what you say above. This is as per the history forum charter.

    Moderator.


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    #86
    Snickers Man
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    CDfm wrote: »
    Note to self. Do not join any pub quiz teams that Denerick is on :D

    On the contrary: kill to get on any quiz team Denerick is on. Just don't join a team playing against him. :D


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