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converting open vented to sealed system

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    #32
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    Luckily you do not have what I posted.
    But you do have very poorly piped radiators, however, very easy to fix.
    Re-pipe the radiators to flow bottom return opposite bottom of the radiators. As you have it, they have very poor circulation through the radiator.
    Powerflush the whole system following the pipe re-arrangement. Re-piping can be done discretely at the back of the rad at low level.
    Vent is also only 1/2". This should be at least 3/4".


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    #33
    Dtp1979
    Registered Users Posts: 12,732 ✭✭✭✭Dtp1979


    Correct me if I'm wrong but if that's a fully pumped system at the moment and the expansion and vent are piped from flow and return on coil, won't the water circulate through the expansion tank, as in pitching over constantly??


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    #34
    freddyuk
    Registered Users Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭freddyuk


    shane0007 wrote: »
    Don't understand any of that.
    A "lay person" should not be doing any of this. A professional person on site would know what to look for, know how to,assess the suitability of the system & advice the customer of all the pros && cons of each choice. Then the homeowner can make an informed decision.
    How do you know the vented system is not leaking already going unnoticed. Most are already!
    This is a public forum where people come here to seek advice from professionals in order to assist them with that informed decision.
    The professional is not standing in front of that system, but advising from afar. I would have thought a wee bit of common sense would prevail.

    Shane I respect your professional opinion but this site is not just for professionals to dispel their wisdom it is for anyone to discuss any subject. Sometimes having actual experience will be better than professional conjecture.
    Your first opinion, without knowing anything about the installation, was to specify an expansion vessel for a pressurised system.
    My first suggestion was to check if the system was actually leaking. Then ask for information on what the system actually consisted of as regards pump position and piping arrangements.
    Only then can you make a judgement.
    Now you know the rads are as old as the house and the piping is completely unsatisfactory and most likely the cause of the problem you are suggesting re piping. I think I already said that too.
    So your common sense comment may be a little misjudged.


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    #35
    pat35
    Closed Accounts Posts: 63 ✭✭pat35


    shane0007 wrote: »
    Luckily you do not have what I posted.
    But you do have very poorly piped radiators, however, very easy to fix.
    Re-pipe the radiators to flow bottom return opposite bottom of the radiators. As you have it, they have very poor circulation through the radiator.
    Powerflush the whole system following the pipe re-arrangement. Re-piping can be done discretely at the back of the rad at low level.
    Vent is also only 1/2". This should be at least 3/4".
    Thanks,i will change the open vent to 3/4".Alot of the rads dont get hot on the far bottom right,Is this just a badly designed radiator issue.I know what your saying about the pipe rearrangement.However there is no flow/return connection at the opposite side of the radiators


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    #36
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    Dtp1979 wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm wrong but if that's a fully pumped system at the moment and the expansion and vent are piped from flow and return on coil, won't the water circulate through the expansion tank, as in pitching over constantly??

    Vent is on flow & expansion is on return. Pump on flow CAN cause pump over but not always. It would depend on the pump head, pump speed settings & parameters of the system static head.
    As it stands, I would also change the pump back to the return along with the works described, if being kept as an open vented system. If still being pressurised, it won't make a difference.


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    #37
    pat35
    Closed Accounts Posts: 63 ✭✭pat35


    Dtp1979 wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm wrong but if that's a fully pumped system at the moment and the expansion and vent are piped from flow and return on coil, won't the water circulate through the expansion tank, as in pitching over constantly??
    Its an open vented system.Im just thinking of changing it to a sealed system.Although it seem now it may be radiators issues i have


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    #38
    pat35
    Closed Accounts Posts: 63 ✭✭pat35


    freddyuk wrote: »
    Shane I respect your professional opinion but this site is not just for professionals to dispel their wisdom it is for anyone to discuss any subject. Sometimes having actual experience will be better than professional conjecture.
    Your first opinion, without knowing anything about the installation, was to specify an expansion vessel for a pressurised system.
    My first suggestion was to check if the system was actually leaking. Then ask for information on what the system actually consisted of as regards pump position and piping arrangements.
    Only then can you make a judgement.
    Now you know the rads are as old as the house and the piping is completely unsatisfactory and most likely the cause of the problem you are suggesting re piping. I think I already said that too.
    So your common sense comment may be a little misjudged.
    Thanks for your help so far.Just to clarify though i just asked about expansion vessel sizing and shane told me how to get the right size expansion vessel for any heating system.Also i dont know as yet if the pipe work if the pipe work is unsatisfactory


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    #39
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    freddyuk wrote: »
    Shane I respect your professional opinion but this site is not just for professionals to dispel their wisdom it is for anyone to discuss any subject. Sometimes having actual experience will be better than professional conjecture.
    Your first opinion, without knowing anything about the installation, was to specify an expansion vessel for a pressurised system.
    My first suggestion was to check if the system was actually leaking. Then ask for information on what the system actually consisted of as regards pump position and piping arrangements.
    Only then can you make a judgement.
    Now you know the rads are as old as the house and the piping is completely unsatisfactory and most likely the cause of the problem you are suggesting re piping. I think I already said that too.
    So your common sense comment may be a little misjudged.
    It's not about bettering a reply. I think you need to read the opening post from the OP. He stated he was converting & was a 12L vessel ok. Thus my explanation about how to correctly size the vessel.
    The thread then gathered further momentum as other issues were highlighted. That is the whole beautiful thing about threads, they evolve.
    You made valid & well contributed additions to the thread. Nobody is disputing that.


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    #40
    freddyuk
    Registered Users Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭freddyuk


    While you are re plumbing the rads it would be worth fitting TRV's so as to give you some temperature control save doing it all again later. Leave one in the bathroom without a TRV.
    I would have a look at fully checking the control system to ensure you have the best control as you will be draining down now anyway. Maybe a zone valve would be worthwhile to get a better functioning system.


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    #41
    pat35
    Closed Accounts Posts: 63 ✭✭pat35


    Thanks guys.Seeing as i cant replumb the return on the rads to the opposite side am i looking at buying new radiators and am i better off not changing to a sealed system?


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    #42
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    If it were my home, I would test the system & convert, unless you are hoping to install solid fuel in the near or distant future.
    But that is just my opinion.


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    #43
    K.Flyer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    Just noticed that there is no balancing valve on the cylinder coil, thats not going to help the circulation on the radiators!


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    #44
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    Never noticed that. Well done. That will take an enormous amount of flow & heat from the rads, so before changing all the rads, fit a balancing valve to the cylinder coil pipework & only have it open one full turn.


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    #45
    pat35
    Closed Accounts Posts: 63 ✭✭pat35


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    Just noticed that there is no balancing valve on the cylinder coil, thats not going to help the circulation on the radiators!
    I have one,its just abit lower down than the picture i took,Its open more that one turn though,more like halfway open


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    #46
    pat35
    Closed Accounts Posts: 63 ✭✭pat35


    shane0007 wrote: »
    If it were my home, I would test the system & convert, unless you are hoping to install solid fuel in the near or distant future.
    But that is just my opinion.
    There wont be solid fuel.Its a good opinion i think.I think it would work better.What about the radiator issues i have though?


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    #47
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    pat35 wrote: »
    I have one,its just abit lower down than the picture i took,Its open more that one turn though,more like halfway open

    Back to original suggestions so...


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    #48
    K.Flyer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    pat35 wrote: »
    I have one,its just abit lower down than the picture i took,Its open more that one turn though,more like halfway open

    Throw up a picture of where it is, showing the pipework as well.
    The valve would normally be located on the return off the cylinder coil before it rejoins the the rest of the system, yours may be ok (albeit open too much) but it may need to be moved to improve matters
    Looking again at the second picture there may not be enough room for the valve on the return (Bottom Pipe) so you may have to fit it on the higher pipe and leave the original one fully open.


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    #49
    pat35
    Closed Accounts Posts: 63 ✭✭pat35


    pictures


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    #50
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    pat35 wrote: »
    pictures

    That's fine. It's on the return. Just close it fully & open back one full turn.


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    #51
    pat35
    Closed Accounts Posts: 63 ✭✭pat35


    Picture of opposite end of radiator


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    #52
    pat35
    Closed Accounts Posts: 63 ✭✭pat35


    shane0007 wrote: »
    That's fine. It's on the return. Just close it fully & open back one full turn.
    Yes,thats done,it was open two turns.What will i do about the radiator issue though.i cant plumb the return on the opposite side.They appear to circulate very poorly.Picture in last post of radiator


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    #53
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    As I said back to original plan. If the rads can only be piped on one side, then it is a re-pipe & replace rads.
    It might be a good idea to get a decent plumber in to assess the installation in person before going to any great expense as we can only be as accurate as the information we have to hand. There is nothing better than standing there looking at it.


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    #54
    K.Flyer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    I was just looking again at the picture of your radiator pipes.
    Do you have two seperate pipes coming out of the ground and one pipe going directly to the lower valve and the other pipe going directly to the top valve and are all your radiators done this way?


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    #55
    pat35
    Closed Accounts Posts: 63 ✭✭pat35


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    I was just looking again at the picture of your radiator pipes.
    Do you have two seperate pipes coming out of the ground and one pipe going directly to the lower valve and the other pipe going directly to the top valve and are all your radiators done this way?
    yes,All rad the very same.Shane said they are a poor circulating radiator and his advice was to move one of the pipes to the opposite side of the rad and this would fix the poor circulation.How ever as you can see from the pictures a cant move one pipe to the opposite side so im feeling a bit lost as to what i should do with them


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    #56
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    Can you post a pic of the left side of that rad? Top/bottom


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    #57
    K.Flyer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    Are all the radiators lacking heat or just some and did the system ever work well before?


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    #58
    pat35
    Closed Accounts Posts: 63 ✭✭pat35


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    Are all the radiators lacking heat or just some and did the system ever work well before?
    Not really,it has always been an uphill battle to get heat to circulate correctly in all radiators


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    #59
    pat35
    Closed Accounts Posts: 63 ✭✭pat35


    shane0007 wrote: »
    Can you post a pic of the left side of that rad? Top/bottom
    i have a picture in post 31.pic is sam2024.The second picture is in post 51, pic is sam2030.These pictures are the two opposite ends of all the radiators.


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    #60
    K.Flyer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    If it has never been right I think its best to do as Shane advised and get a decent plumber who understands heating systems to come and take a look at it and see what is the best solution for you.
    There are so many variables that might need to be taken into consideration and yet it may be a simple solution as well. Unfortunately your radiators are not going to help you at all and you would be better off changing them for better results.


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    #61
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    Sorry never looked at that one.
    Yup, IMO it's a rad replacement & re-pipe the to the other side. Solder elbow from where it exits the floor, kick to skirting, along back of rad & a kick to valve. Shouldn't even be seen.
    All in copper though.

    A good chance to ensure the rads are sized correctly as pipework will be ran to suit the rad.
    I would still powerflush the system in case of sludge going into new rads.


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