The Elephant in the room.

Gatling · 09-08-2013 2:05pm

bumper234 wrote: »

So some action sometime around 2037:rolleyes:

Probably bit of an exaggeration there ,

Here lies there problem

You change the pass system like they did a few years ago by bringing in a color band to identify the various passes
ie, disability ,OAP,other
Ops took legal action because they didn't want to be identified as oaps essentially and won color bands were out ,
Now as it stands if its scrapped or significantly changed there will be legal actions and were back to square one

Sam Russell · 09-08-2013 2:52pm

I think they have a new card to be issued in Jan or Feb this year. It will deal with the bus pass and 'other Government charges'.

Clearly this has not happened yet, but it is early days yet. The trial should start soon. Real soon.

They should use more inspectors. I have yet to see a bus ticket inspector and have only been checked once on the Dart in over 5 years.

A very simple method to reduce the abuse on the FBP would be to restrict its use to after 9:30 am. No cost issue, but would affect school children going to school, but specific school passes would overcome this.

I think 30% or more of the population have free travel.

Fred Swanson · 09-08-2013 3:30pm

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rfallon · 09-08-2013 5:26pm

Agree with lxflyer, the traffic between Galway and Limerick is low because there is no social connection between the two cities.
Problem with the Oranmore station is that while it's very nice, only a few trains stop there. So it's no use when Galway and Athenry are so close. It could be a success if it had more trains stopping there. For example between Oranmore and Athenry, only 5 trains are bookable online. Almost all trains need to stop if it is to be viable.

dowlingm · 09-08-2013 8:13pm

rfallon wrote: »

Problem with the Oranmore station is that while it's very nice, only a few trains stop there. So it's no use when Galway and Athenry are so close. It could be a success if it had more trains stopping there. For example between Oranmore and Athenry, only 5 trains are bookable online. Almost all trains need to stop if it is to be viable.

While I would agree that ideally all IE intercity trains be bookable, that the trains aren't bookable doesn't mean they don't stop there - it means they are Limerick-Galway trains.

suicide_circus · 10-08-2013 12:11pm

Myself and the GF had an afternoon off together during the week and decided to take the bus to visit some friends in another part of Dublin (we're mad like that). We paid our €2.80 each (which i found a little steep, however) and sat downstairs. between our boarding stop and our alighting stop about 30 or so people got on the bus. how many paid (cash or leap)??? ONE!!! One person!! All the rest had passes. Some didn't even present their passes and just walked on ignoring the driver completely! I don't think that public transport should be making a fortune but surely it's got to tick over and sustain itself to some extent. the present situation is farcical.

Fred Swanson · 10-08-2013 1:16pm

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mickydoomsux · 10-08-2013 2:17pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Suppose they could try but they'd probably get assaulted so their option is to call the police and wait for them to arrive. Literally every single bus would be late every single day. We need a roaming transport police in the capital at the very least.

foggy_lad · 10-08-2013 3:33pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

Myself and the GF had an afternoon off together during the week and decided to take the bus to visit some friends in another part of Dublin (we're mad like that). We paid our €2.80 each (which i found a little steep, however) and sat downstairs. between our boarding stop and our alighting stop about 30 or so people got on the bus. how many paid (cash or leap)??? ONE!!! One person!! All the rest had passes. Some didn't even present their passes and just walked on ignoring the driver completely! I don't think that public transport should be making a fortune but surely it's got to tick over and sustain itself to some extent. the present situation is farcical.

Was the route taking in somewhere like a school for the deaf or a St John of God training facility? Did any of those 30 passengers use the ticket validators on the right inside the doors? I only ask because it would appear ye don't take the bus very often and might think those passengers using the ticket validator have free travel?

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Suppose they could try but they'd probably get assaulted so their option is to call the police and wait for them to arrive. Literally every single bus would be late every single day. We need a roaming transport police in the capital at the very least.

If proper procedure was followed then yes it would hold up buses for a while but only for a few days until the thieves learned that they will not get away with their stealing.

mickydoomsux · 10-08-2013 3:50pm

Thieves?

Most of the people who would cause problems would be 'entitled' to their passes.

The whole system needs to be burned to the ground and rebuilt.

foggy_lad · 10-08-2013 4:03pm

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Thieves?

Most of the people who would cause problems would be 'entitled' to their passes.

The whole system needs to be burned to the ground and rebuilt.

My post was relating to those with no pass or ticket but equally someone who has a pass but refuses to show it should not be allowed travel and the bus parked up until that person disembarks. If they try to show their pass after causing trouble on the bus it should be confiscated as they are not using it in accordance with the stated rules.

suicide_circus · 10-08-2013 6:02pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Was the route taking in somewhere like a school for the deaf or a St John of God training facility? Did any of those 30 passengers use the ticket validators on the right inside the doors? I only ask because it would appear ye don't take the bus very often and might think those passengers using the ticket validator have free travel?
If proper procedure was followed then yes it would hold up buses for a while but only for a few days until the thieves learned that they will not get away with their stealing.

not to be too blunt about it but our fellow passengers fell into two categories; the elderly and the addicted.

Firewalkwithme · 11-08-2013 11:40pm

Owryan wrote: »

In my own case , I have have medical condition that doesnt affect my driving or require excessive travel for treatment yet I still have a pass .

I would consider only providing passes to those who fulfill certain needs, ie does their issue affect whether they can drive or not, is personal mobility affected, how frequent do they attend hospital/distance to and from hospital.

Yet in my case I have a condition which means I cannot drive legally but despite that I am not entitled to a FTP.

Great system isn't it?

Perhaps I should take up a new past time, like taking heroin. Then I would qualify on the get the junkies to the clinic scheme.

What really bugs me as a regular bus user is seeing people get on the bus and swipe an invalid ticket and then just wave it at the driver and get away with it. What's the point in paying a fare at all? The drivers should have the balls to force them to pay their fare or get off the bus. Maybe then there wouldn't be a need for 11 million in savings. I see happen this on almost every bus I get on.

I guess the lesson is that if you don't qualify for a FTP just carry an expired ticket with you. On Dublin Bus, both are equally valid.

cdebru · 12-08-2013 9:42am

Cartoon_Head wrote: »

Yet in my case I have a condition which means I cannot drive legally but despite that I am not entitled to a FTP.

Great system isn't it?

Perhaps I should take up a new past time, like taking heroin. Then I would qualify on the get the junkies to the clinic scheme.

What really bugs me as a regular bus user is seeing people get on the bus and swipe an invalid ticket and then just wave it at the driver and get away with it. What's the point in paying a fare at all? The drivers should have the balls to force them to pay their fare or get off the bus. Maybe then there wouldn't be a need for 11 million in savings. I see happen this on almost every bus I get on.

I guess the lesson is that if you don't qualify for a FTP just carry an expired ticket with you. On Dublin Bus, both are equally valid.

Part of the problem is that people don't know how to use the new ticket readers, most people insist on waving the ticket at the reader instead of touching it, with the result the reader, reads the ticket on the first pass and the subsequent passes it reads as the person trying to validate the ticket numerous times, and it gives the beep beep noise the driver sees the already validated message on his screen and he waves them on.

cdebru · 12-08-2013 9:50am

foggy_lad wrote: »

My post was relating to those with no pass or ticket but equally someone who has a pass but refuses to show it should not be allowed travel and the bus parked up until that person disembarks. If they try to show their pass after causing trouble on the bus it should be confiscated as they are not using it in accordance with the stated rules.

People that tap their pockets tend to be the elderly, often they are regular travellers and they are known to the drivers on that route, so yes you could insist they all take out their passes and show them even though you know them and have seen the pass before but it would just slow everything right down, nor do I think it is a good idea to remove an 80 year old from the bus for causing trouble because she didn't show you her bus pass, which she obviously has and you have seen before.

When hopefully the passes are replaced with a smart card then they will hopefully have to be read for each trip, the problem is the flash card nature of the current system.

foggy_lad · 12-08-2013 11:08am

cdebru wrote: »

People that tap their pockets tend to be the elderly, often they are regular travellers and they are known to the drivers on that route, so yes you could insist they all take out their passes and show them even though you know them and have seen the pass before but it would just slow everything right down, nor do I think it is a good idea to remove an 80 year old from the bus for causing trouble because she didn't show you her bus pass, which she obviously has and you have seen before.

When hopefully the passes are replaced with a smart card then they will hopefully have to be read for each trip, the problem is the flash card nature of the current system.

Indeed i agree but was it not the elderly who insisted on equality of treatment when they objected to having a different coloured stripe on their pass to differentiate them from other free travel pass holders? should they not be treated just as equally when checking passes?

cdebru · 12-08-2013 11:39am

foggy_lad wrote: »

Indeed i agree but was it not the elderly who insisted on equality of treatment when they objected to having a different coloured stripe on their pass to differentiate them from other free travel pass holders? should they not be treated just as equally when checking passes?

I don't think the elderly acted as a group in this matter, depends on what you want, if it is a transport system that is as fast and reliable as possible or one that sits around for 5 minutes waiting for someone who obviously and is known to have a pass to dig it out of their bag etc.

davidlacey · 12-08-2013 11:43am

Is it just the case that its a semi state company and not enough accountability has been given to them with far too much support from the state. Look at how the luas is operated by veoila. Much more ticket inspectors and more chance of being caught, dont know how strict they are with travel passes though. I do not think this issue of valid travel pass implementation will change unless dublin bus is privatised and the private company will either a)not allow travel passes b) not go so easy on the people supposedly carrying them

foggy_lad · 12-08-2013 11:47am

cdebru wrote: »

I don't think the elderly acted as a group in this matter, depends on what you want, if it is a transport system that is as fast and reliable as possible or one that sits around for 5 minutes waiting for someone who obviously and is known to have a pass to dig it out of their bag etc.

Any time I have used Dublin buses i have never seen elderly passengers rooting around in their bags or pockets for their pass, it is always in their hand or in a wallet and shown when they board. The problems arise when some relative or other ne'er-do-well takes the pass and leaves the pensioner with the photopass or vice-versa. as the driver scans the wallets containing travel passes they may notice this and should really stop this passenger from using their now invalid travel pass.

It really is a horrible mess but one which could easily be sorted by a requirement to carry a passport or Age Card along with the free travel pass and no exceptions not even for a pensioner that produces their letter from the president for their hundredth birthday. This will remove all forged and otherwise fraudulent passes from use by making them useless!

bumper234 · 12-08-2013 11:54am

cdebru wrote: »

I don't think the elderly acted as a group in this matter, depends on what you want, if it is a transport system that is as fast and reliable as possible or one that sits around for 5 minutes waiting for someone who obviously and is known to have a pass to dig it out of their bag etc.

Well it's neither of these things at the moment. EVERYONE who has a pass should be made to show it. If thIs was implemented then within a few weeks people would be used to having them at the ready when the bus arrives. At the moment we have a system where anyone can just stroll onto a bus, wave something in the general direction of the driver and carry onto the bus without a word said. I would love love to see the statistics showing how much DB lose every year from fare dodging and people using FTP's that they are not entitled to.

Gatling · 12-08-2013 11:56am

foggy_lad wrote: »

Any time I have used Dublin buses i have never seen elderly passengers rooting around in their bags or pockets for their pass, it is always in their hand or in a wallet and shown when they board. The problems arise when some relative or other ne'er-do-well takes the pass and leaves the pensioner with the photopass or vice-versa. as the driver scans the wallets containing travel passes they may notice this and should really stop this passenger from using their now invalid travel pass.

It really is a horrible mess but one which could easily be sorted by a requirement to carry a passport or Age Card along with the free travel pass and no exceptions not even for a pensioner that produces their letter from the president for their hundredth birthday. This will remove all forged and otherwise fraudulent passes from use by making them useless!

Asking people to carry passport to be used with the DSP pass wouldn't work there would be uproar ,if age groups where able to take legal action over a color strip I can only imagine the fuss over having to carry an official document like a passport everyday,

It would make more sense if drivers actually bothered to check each pass ,this idea that if a driver knows a passenger they should be exempt form checking simple no pass ,no ticket ,no ride

Sam Russell · 12-08-2013 12:24pm

I have never seen a ticket inspector on a bus. Checking tickets would be a start.

The FTP should be a machine checkable ticket like the Leap card. The Oyster card works in London for a much larger population and they are very vigorous about fare evasion. In NI, they have a smart card for the FTP. We should have the same.

The savings on fare evasion would pay for it in jig-time.

OldNotWIse · 12-08-2013 12:30pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I have never seen a ticket inspector on a bus. Checking tickets would be a start.

The FTP should be a machine checkable ticket like the Leap card. The Oyster card works in London for a much larger population and they are very vigorous about fare evasion. In NI, they have a smart card for the FTP. We should have the same.

The savings on fare evasion would pay for it in jig-time.

^ Yes. It's so easy to get on a bus and pay minimum fare and overstay your "stop". I think I've had my ticket checked twice in my entire life.

VONSHIRACH · 12-08-2013 1:43pm

It would be useful if there was data available for the numbers of free travel passes actually used on a daily/weekly/monthly basis etc. FTP's should be scannable anyway by a reader on a bus. If there are 1 million free travel passes in use, they are certainly not all used on a daily basis and some are never used! My elderly father has never used his FTP in 8 years, my mother likewise. I know and have known elderly people over the last 20 years that through age and illness cannot use the FTP. There are thousands of FTP's unused by elderly people all over the country, in long term care and nursing homes, and many also living at home unable to travel.

It is important that invalid or forged FTP's are dealt with. I saw a TV programme recently about the LUAS, the ticket inspectors can phone a dedicated number in DSP to check if a passenger's FTP is valid. This is not practical for a BE or DB driver to do, so maybe FTP's need to be barcodeable and readable/scannable on BE and DB buses. An invalid FTP would be rejected by the scanner and passenger refused entry. Data could be collected and analysed for FTP users collectively and unusual individual users flagged for checking out.

Gatling · 12-08-2013 2:16pm

VONSHIRACH wrote: »

It would be useful if there was data available for the numbers of free travel passes actually used on a daily/weekly/monthly basis etc. FTP's should be scannable anyway by a reader on a bus. If there are 1 million free travel passes in use, they are certainly not all used on a daily basis and some are never used! My elderly father has never used his FTP in 8 years, my mother likewise. I know and have known elderly people over the last 20 years that through age and illness cannot use the FTP. There are thousands of FTP's unused by elderly people all over the country, in long term care and nursing homes, and many also living at home unable to travel.

It is important that invalid or forged FTP's are dealt with. I saw a TV programme recently about the LUAS, the ticket inspectors can phone a dedicated number in DSP to check if a passenger's FTP is valid. This is not practical for a BE or DB driver to do, so maybe FTP's need to be barcodeable and readable/scannable on BE and DB buses. An invalid FTP would be rejected by the scanner and passenger refused entry. Data could be collected and analysed for FTP users collectively and unusual individual users flagged for checking out.

I know a db bus driver posted figures on here a while back ,

The breakdown of passes issues by social welfare

99,000 (give or take a few) DA - disability allowance

Similar number for OAPs and carers ( if I remember correctly)

And another 99,000+ under Other ( nobody seems to know what exactly covers others )

So you have roughly 300,000 DSP issued country wide by social welfare now if every one of the 300,000 has provision for a partner ,cohabbitant, spouse which most of them don't you end up with up to 600,000 country wide well short of the 1 million + touted by various groups

Fred Swanson · 12-08-2013 2:18pm

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Fred Swanson · 12-08-2013 2:19pm

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Fred Swanson · 12-08-2013 2:22pm

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Losty Dublin · 12-08-2013 3:06pm

Gatling wrote: »

I know a db bus driver posted figures on here a while back ,

The breakdown of passes issues by social welfare

99,000 (give or take a few) DA - disability allowance

Similar number for OAPs and carers ( if I remember correctly)

And another 99,000+ under Other ( nobody seems to know what exactly covers others )

So you have roughly 300,000 DSP issued country wide by social welfare now if every one of the 300,000 has provision for a partner ,cohabbitant, spouse which most of them don't you end up with up to 600,000 country wide well short of the 1 million + touted by various groups

According to a recent Irish Times piece linked below there are 1.1 million people covered under the DSP travel scheme. The population of Ireland is 4.58 million according to the 2011 Census.

Eliminate a ball park figure of 1.1 million to allow for those who are under 18 who aren't eligible for the scheme and you have about 3.5 million adults in Ireland.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/free-travel-payment-based-on-1973-survey-committee-hears-1.1326052

cdebru · 12-08-2013 3:18pm

Gatling wrote: »

I know a db bus driver posted figures on here a while back ,

The breakdown of passes issues by social welfare

99,000 (give or take a few) DA - disability allowance

Similar number for OAPs and carers ( if I remember correctly)

And another 99,000+ under Other ( nobody seems to know what exactly covers others )

So you have roughly 300,000 DSP issued country wide by social welfare now if every one of the 300,000 has provision for a partner ,cohabbitant, spouse which most of them don't you end up with up to 600,000 country wide well short of the 1 million + touted by various groups

http://www.welfare.ie/en/downloads/S...2012_Final.pdf

754,731 that is individual passes when you add the partner free travel it comes to over over 1.1 million people.

An extra 28,320 extra people got a free pass in 2012 but the funding actually slightly decreased, so in a time when passengers are getting fleeced with fare increases, 28,320 extra people are carried for less money.

Gatling · 12-08-2013 3:27pm

1.5 million the figure keeps getting sensationalised on a weekly basis ,

Qualify and issued are 2 separate issued

cdebru · 12-08-2013 4:22pm

Gatling wrote: »

1.5 million the figure keeps getting sensationalised on a weekly basis ,

Qualify and issued are 2 separate issued

Where did you get 1.5 million from, the only person making up figures here is you, the DSP have said there were 754,000 individual free passes in 2012 with the partner scheme it is over 1.1 million with adults entitled to free travel.
That is DSP figures, no sensationalising.

Gatling · 12-08-2013 5:01pm

cdebru wrote: »

Where did you get 1.5 million from, the only person making up figures here is you, the DSP have said there were 754,000 individual free passes in 2012 with the partner scheme it is over 1.1 million with adults entitled to free travel.
That is DSP figures, no sensationalising.

Basic math 7.5 + 7.5=

The key word in this is eligible

Vs actually issued

cdebru · 12-08-2013 5:14pm

Gatling wrote: »

Basic math 7.5 + 7.5=

The key word in this is eligible

Vs actually issued

like I said you are just making figures up, 754,000 is the number of issued passes that is a DSP figure, 1.1 million plus, entitled to free travel that is a DSP figure, not every pass has a partner entitlement.
these are actually issued passes, however they do not include passes the DSP no longer consider valid but are in circulation.

Gatling · 12-08-2013 5:18pm

cdebru wrote: »

like I said you are just making figures up, 754,000 is the number of issued passes that is a DSP figure, 1.1 million plus, entitled to free travel that is a DSP figure, not every pass has a partner entitlement.
these are actually issued passes, however they do not include passes the DSP no longer consider valid but are in circulation.

754000 x 2 = 1508000

So the figures are actually incorrect

Fred Swanson · 12-08-2013 5:28pm

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cdebru · 12-08-2013 5:38pm

Gatling wrote: »

Entitled

If you are entitled the DSP automatically issue you a FTP. These are issued passes.

you are trying to make a distinction that does not exist.

Gatling · 12-08-2013 6:04pm

cdebru wrote: »

If you are entitled the DSP automatically issue you a FTP. These are issued passes.

you are trying to make a distinction that does not exist.

Not everybody has a pass that entitles to have a partner ,spouse ,cohabitant

But as proven and backed up there's no point if you can just walk on to a bus with a nod even arguing a point that isn't actually there

cdebru · 12-08-2013 6:30pm

Gatling wrote: »

Not everybody has a pass that entitles to have a partner ,spouse ,cohabitant

But as proven and backed up there's no point if you can just walk on to a bus with a nod even arguing a point that isn't actually there

So your actual point is ?

devnull · 16-08-2013 11:32am

If you are sure someone is abusing the system or using a fake pass, is there a way of reporting them?

foggy_lad · 16-08-2013 11:47am

devnull wrote: »

If you are sure someone is abusing the system or using a fake pass, is there a way of reporting them?

You could contact the department in Longford/Sligo that deals with the free travel scheme but you are better off reporting it here http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Reporting-Possible-Fraud-in-Relation-to-the-Departments-Sch.aspx

AlekSmart · 16-08-2013 12:09pm

cdebru wrote: »

like I said you are just making figures up, 754,000 is the number of issued passes that is a DSP figure, 1.1 million plus, entitled to free travel that is a DSP figure, not every pass has a partner entitlement.
these are actually issued passes, however they do not include passes the DSP no longer consider valid but are in circulation.

The confusion arises in this case,largely due to the DSP's inability to provide actual total figures for numbers covered,as opposed to numbers of Free Travel Pass holders.

The 1.1 million figure comes from a recent appearance before a Dáil Committee by the Secretary General of the DSP,and also confirmed by Minister Burton in the Dáil itself....

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/%28indexlookupdail%29/20121009~WRO?opendocument

The free travel scheme is currently available to all people living in the State aged 66 years or over, to carers and to people who are in receipt of certain disability type payments. There are currently in excess of 740,000 customers eligible for free travel and when spousal and companion passes are taken into account, there are over 1.1 million customers with some free travel eligibility.

The cost of the free travel scheme has risen substantially over the last 10 years from €45.8 million for almost 608,000 customers in 2001 to over €75 million for 726,000 customers in 2011. My Department also provides some funding for the rural transport programme. In line with the Government decision, expenditure on this scheme has been frozen since 2010.

The salient point is that even the Minister herself cannot give EXACT (Germanic) figures,as she does not know them.

Of equal interest is that word "Some" in relation to Free Travel Scheme elegibility....A Free Travel Pass,as currently issued,has NO restrictions on its use,so you either have it or you don't.

The 2012 Free Travel Budget allocation has fallen by 0.1% and now pays for some 26,000 EXTRA entitled persons.

The only available comparator which I can apply is against the cost of a CIE All Services Ticket as described here.

http://www.taxsaver.ie/ticket-types/annual-tickets/CIE-All-Services-Irish-Rail-Dublin-Bus--Bus-Eireann/

€5,350 Per Anum.

(Note the DSP Free Pass would not include CIE Group Airlink,Nitelink,or special services but would include Certain Private services,LUAS and the Offshore Island Helicopter Services for residents.)

Fred Swanson · 16-08-2013 12:13pm

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AlekSmart · 16-08-2013 12:26pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Yes Fred you are...presumably you have signed the inside of the Document as the qualified Spouse/Partner ?

Also worth noting that,should your wife get off the bus seperately before you,then YOU will be liable for a Standard Fare unless you pay for the remainder of your journey.

Of nominal interest is the Norther Ireland situation in which the Free Travel concession is available ONLY to the Holder,with any spouse qualifying on an individual personal basis,rather than merely being married to a qualifying person.

Fred Swanson · 16-08-2013 12:36pm

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Sam Russell · 16-08-2013 9:40pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Of nominal interest is the Norther Ireland situation in which the Free Travel concession is available ONLY to the Holder,with any spouse qualifying on an individual personal basis,rather than merely being married to a qualifying person.

Actually, anyone over 66 is entitled to a FTP for NI if they have a FTP here. It only applies to the individual and must be applied for seperately. It contains a chip like the Leap card.

I think they need to overhaul the system and could start by making them only valid after 9:30 am as they used to be. Also, they should only apply to the holder (no spouse) and should not apply to a number of categories that are currently covered. New cards with a chip, requiring valdating by the driver should be introduced, with a photo. (Currently photos are only required in Dublin.)

Special travel passes could be introduced to cover journeys like kids going to school, etc. where the current pass is over-generous.

Also, more Inspectors for checking tickets. It is not just the FTP that is abused.

cdebru · 16-08-2013 10:19pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Also, more Inspectors for checking tickets. It is not just the FTP that is abused.

Management within DB seem to be blissfully unaware that they have any revenue protection issue, they estimate it at about 2%.
It is a side affect of a management that in the main never worked on buses nor even used them as a passenger.
The ticket checking that is done is mainly confined to the routes serving the more affluent areas of the city which gives a distorted view of the problem.

Sam Russell · 16-08-2013 10:22pm

If DB concentrated on revenue protection, they would not need to cut costs by anything like as much.

petronius · 24-08-2013 9:14pm

No elephant - the Free Bus pass was a great measure (even if it came via Charlie Haughey)
it enables many old and not so wealthy people to get out and travel a bit and the mental and physical benefits that results in
like what would the alternative be reduced prices for pensioners who would then travel less

the problem is efficiency and high cost of the service which needs to be reduced
while DB i dont think should be profit making it should subsidise the non profit making routes and wash its face

mikemac1 · 24-08-2013 9:44pm

There are days on the 40 when there are more people with passes then fare payers.

We had a team of 3 inspectors one day who checked everyone and rang a hotline to welfare to verify the passes.

Quite a few ne'er do wells kicked off.

But then one kicked the door which shattered the glass and over 70 people had to get off and wait for the next bus :rolleyes:

And then onto the next bus without the inspectors and the can drinking and smoking starts again

I hate the 40 :mad: Around 800 euro for an annual ticket for this

They changed the name but the same scum remain. Well we have newer buses now, the 78A never had new buses

The Elephant in the room.

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