"Leap" - Dublin's New Integrated Ticketing Name!

munchkin_utd · 07-06-2011 7:11am #1

Great Leap forward as commuter card unveiled
By Paul Melia
Monday June 06 2011

THEY may have never heard of it before, but this card is going to became a major part of the lives of commuters.

Meet the Leap card -- the so-called 'smart card' coming soon to your wallet or purse.

London has the Oyster, Hong Kong the Octopus and now, the Irish Independent can reveal, the integrated ticketing system for Dublin, first promised in 2002, will be launched in three months.

It will be called the Leap card. It's almost 10 years late and will have cost €55m to develop, but when it comes online in late August it could transform how hundreds of thousands of public transport users comeinto the capital every day.

Smart cards allow commuters to travel on bus, rail and tram without having to buy tickets for each leg of a journey.

Instead, they pre-pay and wave cards at magnetic readers at the each end of their journey.

A computer system calculates the appropriate fare and deducts it from the customer's account.

The 40,000 holders of smart cards on Iarnrod Eireann (30,000) and Luas (10,000), will immediately have their cards replaced with the Leap card.

Dublin Bus would not give an exact figure for the number of its commuters with smart cards. However, it says that average boarding times have reduced from seven to four seconds since its card system was rolled out in 2008.

It emerged last year that transport companies plan to increase cash fares by up to 10pc in a move to encourage people to use the Leap card.

The National Transport Authority (NTA) said that the 'Leap' name was chosen to convey the ease with which commuters would move between Dublin Bus, Luas, Bus Eireann and Iarnrod Eireann services.

"The name is descriptive of a hassle-free way to travel, is easy to remember, and is visually linked through a frog graphic," a spokeswoman said.

Next week, up to 50 people will begin the final stage of testing between Dublin Bus and Luas services, with another 500 recruited in the coming months.

In July, Iarnrod Eireann will be added to the system, and Bus Eireann will join before the end of the year. The cards will also be issued to holders of annual bus, rail or Luas cards.

Private bus operators will eventually be added.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/great-leap-forward-as-commuter-card-unveiled-2667075.html

I am still at a loss to see how this is any different than carrying a bag of coins.
If the card saves money and allows cheap transfers/ connections it will be a success - but is this the case?
The transport companies all along were pushing to charge full whack anytime anyone steps on their service regardless of whether they were transferrring from somewhere else or not.

foggy_lad · 07-06-2011 9:09am

munchkin_utd wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/great-leap-forward-as-commuter-card-unveiled-2667075.html

I am still at a loss to see how this is any different than carrying a bag of coins.
If the card saves money and allows cheap transfers/ connections it will be a success - but is this the case?
The transport companies all along were pushing to charge full whack anytime anyone steps on their service regardless of whether they were transferrring from somewhere else or not.

I would have concerns considering the current state of the Irish rail automated ticket Barrier system especially that customers using this new leap card that only took a decade to develop will be ripped off by the machines and it will be nigh on impossible to get such things sorted out given the current levels of incompetence of the companies involved.

LXFlyer · 07-06-2011 10:55am

munchkin_utd wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/great-leap-forward-as-commuter-card-unveiled-2667075.html

I am still at a loss to see how this is any different than carrying a bag of coins.
If the card saves money and allows cheap transfers/ connections it will be a success - but is this the case?
The transport companies all along were pushing to charge full whack anytime anyone steps on their service regardless of whether they were transferrring from somewhere else or not.

That is the big question - the pricing structure for Dublin Bus and for journeys that involve two or more buses or multi-modes.

As yet we have no firm information on what they will be.

lil5 · 07-06-2011 11:22am

This should and could have been so much better if it where indeed 'integrated ticketing'.

Instead it's a pre-pay 'cash' card you can use on different modes of transport.

And I have every confidence in DublinBus to make a complete hash of the introduction.

They should have introduced a zonal system with a 2- or 3-tier price independent of the mode of transport.

They should have offered decently discounted monthly/yearly tickets for zonal aeras independent of the mode of transport (to everyone not just taxsaver options via employers).

They could have offered transferable off-peak travel cards independent of the mode of transport.

The public transport users shouldn't have to care how and how much they'd have to pay for each mode of transport once they started their journey.

LXFlyer · 07-06-2011 12:03pm

lil5 wrote: »

This should and could have been so much better if it where indeed 'integrated ticketing'.

Instead it's a pre-pay 'cash' card you can use on different modes of transport.

And I have every confidence in DublinBus to make a complete hash of the introduction.

They should have introduced a zonal system with a 2- or 3-tier price independent of the mode of transport.

They should have offered decently discounted monthly/yearly tickets for zonal aeras independent of the mode of transport (to everyone not just taxsaver options via employers).

They could have offered transferable off-peak travel cards independent of the mode of transport.

The public transport users shouldn't have to care how and how much they'd have to pay for each mode of transport once they started their journey.

Just to clarify on this. Dublin Bus have had no say over their basic fare structure - that until recently was dictated by the Department of Transport.

Now it is controlled by the NTA. This whole project is being run by the RPA/NTA and not Dublin Bus.

Given that revenues from the cashbox were staying with individual operators, this card was always going to have different pricing on different modes. That is not uncommon, but it does add an additional complication.

noelfirl · 07-06-2011 12:13pm

I think people need to pull themselves back from the conclusion that this will be a dumb purse, there has been no concrete details on what will or will not be capped nor with regards to multi-modal discounts versus paying for every leg individually with change.

There have been posts on RUI to the effect that there will be some sort of capping scheme and discounts for multi-model journeys if made between in a time window. Additionally it will be possible to load products onto the card.

The lack of a zonal system and indeed a flat fare on Dublin Bus has been at the behest of the previous and highly incompetent Department of Transport. Whether the newer political mandarins or the NTA will make any changes on this front is yet to be seen, but probably unlikely, as the stage fare system Dublin Bus uses has previously and probably continues to be retained as a mechanism of balancing budgets in the face of a static/declining subsidy.

To repeat - there has been NO information as of yet on how this card will handle semi-integrated travel (and the Indo article above is useless on that front), there may not be any handling at all (unlikely), but as of until it is confirmed one way or another it would be nice if the RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE could be left aside.

lil5 · 07-06-2011 12:16pm

Sorry, should have said:

And I have every confidence in DublinBus to make a complete hash of their introduction of Leap.

In regards to the revenues from the cashbox - I couldn't care less. They should agree a distribution key and review it every quarter or whatever the best timeframe is.

LXFlyer · 07-06-2011 12:42pm

lil5 wrote: »

Sorry, should have said:

And I have every confidence in DublinBus to make a complete hash of their introduction of Leap.

In regards to the revenues from the cashbox - I couldn't care less. They should agree a distribution key and review it every quarter or whatever the best timeframe is.

Again this blaming Dublin Bus is a tad unfair - this is being dictated by the RPA and the NTA and NOT Dublin Bus.

Dublin Bus are on record of having wanted previously to introduce flat fares but were prevented from doing so from on high.

The rollout of the current Dublin Bus smartcards has gone relatively smoothly so I think you are being unfair on that company. The real villains of the piece are the Department of Transport.

As for who gets the revenues - that is a major factor in deciding fares structures and while you may not care less, it has big implications for the system.

As Noelfirl says nothing has been made public yet about fare structures and capping - we are just going to have to wait and see. Passing judgement on a card that has yet to go live and has not had a final fares structure published is putting the cart before the horse in a big way. There may well be multi-mode discounts and capping.

AlekSmart · 07-06-2011 2:25pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Again this blaming Dublin Bus is a tad unfair - this is being dictated by the RPA and the NTA and NOT Dublin Bus.

Dublin Bus are on record of having wanted previously to introduce flat fares but were prevented from doing so from on high.

The rollout of the current Dublin Bus smartcards has gone relatively smoothly so I think you are being unfair on that company. The real villains of the piece are the Department of Transport.

As Noelfirl says nothing has been made public yet about fare structures and capping - we are just going to have to wait and see. Passing judgement on a card that has yet to go live and has not had a final fares structure published is putting the cart before the horse in a big way. There may well be multi-mode discounts and capping.

It should also be well noted that in technology terms,Dublin Bus were WAY ahead of the field.

Had this "Integrated Ticketing" process been allowed to be led by Dublin Bus from the outset then we would have had a fully functional system up and running since c 2004 if not earlier.

However as is now commonplace in Irish terms,Political issues took precedence,which led to a reinvent the wheel excercise overseen by yet another expert group,in this case the "Integrated Ticketing Implimentation Group"

As a pre-requisite to making judgements upon Dublin Bus's supposed failings in this large scale project I would recommend taking the time to study the following piece of light reading....

http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/2648-0.pdf

Yes it is involved and lengthy,but it comprehensively covers all bases in providing an understanding of just how long this has taken and more importantly just when and where the project was allowed to begin floundering.....please do take note of the DATE (September 2000) and also the signatories to the report on the final page.

I would also point to the RPA's take on the project and it's information as contained here....

http://www.rpa.ie/en/its/Pages/default.aspx

There is also a VERY comprehensive and globally based review of the simple concept of paying for public transport journeys to be found here.....

http://www.pteg.net/NR/rdonlyres/EACFCEE0-F212-467F-B342-2B9B9538DEED/0/integratedticketingreport221009.pdf

All told these worthy (and wordy) reports should very firmly nail the lie that Dublin bus is solely responsible for the current somewhat disjointed situation.....Integrated Ticketing as a concept has turned out to be something which has tested Irish powers of comprehension to their utmost (some might say Outer) limits.

Read and Weep I should imagine ...?

mikemac · 07-06-2011 2:34pm

€55 million on this , I should have been a consultant

It emerged last year that transport companies plan to increase cash fares by up to 10pc in a move to encourage people to use the Leap card.

Never mind the 10c. So 1.85 to 1.95, even more change to count out.
Dwell times at some stops are ridiculous with cash and figeting and ladies who wait for the bus before searching their bottomless bags.

Hike to a nice round €2 and the childs from 80c to €1.
Yes, there will be complaints but you can drop the prepaid, carrot and stick

When this leap system comes in and people still insist on cash fares well everything should be done to encourage them to go pre paid

PseudoFamous · 07-06-2011 2:37pm

Seeing as the card is being introduced, does this mean that bus and train services will have the same prices for the same services? As an example, Arklow to Busaras is €12.15 one way, whereas Arklow to Connolly Station is €15.90. There's less than 200m between the Busaras and Connolly, so I doubt that that leg of the journey is worth €3.70

EDIT: I realise it says "Dublin's integrated ticketing service", but as BE and IR are involved, I'm sure it'll work on other services.

Losty Dublin · 07-06-2011 2:40pm

Interesting and excellent as ever, Alek.

I'd go one further and wonder aloud just how Dublin Bus would be doing with either a free rein of their operations or with a more complementary/sensible/practical application of the playing field from the State Bodies they deal with.

Either way, they ain't responsible for the mess of things atall

etchyed · 07-06-2011 3:35pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

I am still at a loss to see how this is any different than carrying a bag of coins.

Eh, you don't have to carry a bag of coins?

Seriously, even that's an advantage. Why people are bemoaning the fact that this is even happening is beyond me. Oyster launched without capping or the ability to be used on suburban rail. Once the technology and the back-office is in place, the potential will be there for all kinds of ticketing systems. This is definitely a step forward.

etchyed · 07-06-2011 3:38pm

lil5 wrote: »

This should and could have been so much better if it where indeed 'integrated ticketing'.

Instead it's a pre-pay 'cash' card you can use on different modes of transport.

And I have every confidence in DublinBus to make a complete hash of the introduction.

They should have introduced a zonal system with a 2- or 3-tier price independent of the mode of transport.

They should have offered decently discounted monthly/yearly tickets for zonal aeras independent of the mode of transport (to everyone not just taxsaver options via employers).

They could have offered transferable off-peak travel cards independent of the mode of transport.

The public transport users shouldn't have to care how and how much they'd have to pay for each mode of transport once they started their journey.

I know lxflyer has already pointed this out, and in fairness lil5 seems to be a relatively new poster, but the number of times I have had to read this Dublin Bus bashing sometimes makes me sad. If Dublin Bus had its way its ticketing system would be a lot simpler. But it is not allowed make it so.

I really hope that people can absorb that simple truth, once and for all.

Aard · 07-06-2011 4:42pm

Something tells me that they'll be raising cash prices more than 10%. Iirc, it takes a 50% "surcharge" on cash to get people to move to prepaid en masse.

On the cosmetic side, the name "Leap" is pretty cool. At first I thought it was gimmicky and a bit cringe. Not sure why; maybe I have a natural aversion to any kind of corporate creativity. Also, I was just plain surprised, because there's been no info whatsoever leaked about what it'd be called. But once I heard there was gonna be a little frog on the card, I was sold!

All I can say is finally, finally, finally this is happening. I hop the effort they went to (e-purse, multi-ticket holding...) will pay off, and that feature creep will happen. Look at Hong Kong's card, where it's used in vending machines and for small purchases in convenience stores. The possibilities...

AlekSmart · 07-06-2011 10:07pm

Aard wrote: »

Something tells me that they'll be raising cash prices more than 10%. Iirc, it takes a 50% "surcharge" on cash to get people to move to prepaid en masse. .....

Also, I was just plain surprised, because there's been no info whatsoever leaked about what it'd be called. But once I heard there was gonna be a little frog on the card, I was sold! ........

All I can say is finally, finally, finally this is happening. I hop the effort they went to (e-purse, multi-ticket holding...) will pay off, and that feature creep will happen. Look at Hong Kong's card, where it's used in vending machines and for small purchases in convenience stores. The possibilities...

I would suggest that within the next 6 to 12 months we will see a significant attempt at "creative adjustment" of the current DB Cash Fare tarriffs.

I rather suspect that the nettle of the hugely restrictive,but financially necessary (for DublinBus) Fare-Stage system will have to be grasped in order to progress the "Leap" products image.

Make no mistake but some of DB's current cash paying customers are going to take a hit,it's only a matter of which group...the €1.20's or the €2.30's.

I predict that DB will go for placing a belated emphasis on marketing a "Travel90" like concept to attract and retain usership.

This new scenario will not please those who want/need the sporadic Bus journey as I believe this will now be in the €2 minimum range.

However,like Aard,I believe this to be a significant turning point for Public Transport as a viable alternative for Dublin...I fervently hope that the relevant authorities now go-for-broke in terms of enabling the bells and whistles of of "Leap" technology.....:)

We've waited long enough and paid far more than we needed to allow this thing to be watered down to maintain outdated dynasties and ould Gods Time cash handling procedures....sweep them away and lets Get Smart !!

Godge · 07-06-2011 10:46pm

etchyed wrote: »

Eh, you don't have to carry a bag of coins?

Seriously, even that's an advantage. Why people are bemoaning the fact that this is even happening is beyond me. Oyster launched without capping or the ability to be used on suburban rail. Once the technology and the back-office is in place, the potential will be there for all kinds of ticketing systems. This is definitely a step forward.

This is the key point. It doesn't matter what way the system is introduced. What matters are the different options available under the technology. Changing the system is easy if you don't have to reprogram and/or issue new cards.

the groutch · 07-06-2011 10:55pm

I have a feeling there motive is centred more on having an excuse to increase cash fares to try cut losses, rather than to improve the service

Capt'n Midnight · 08-06-2011 11:33am

I fear this will be like the M50 or Oyster when first introduced in that not only will you have to pay the existing fare but you will also have to pay a surcharge for the ability to do so electronically.

Unless this means bus fares cheaper then the travel 90's then there is no reason for suburban commuters to change over especially in a recession. It wouldn't be faster or cheaper than existing commuter tickets.

If on the other hand they used it automatically apply any existing discounts then it becomes interesting, especially if they do a travel 90 style arangement with other carriers such that bus+luas is same as cash price for either fare, and offer a bulk discount if you top up by more than a certain amount ~€20.

bk · 08-06-2011 3:31pm

Hmm, I wonder does anyone know how someone could get on the trial?

I'd love to trial it and I think I could give very constructive feedback. Of course quiet happy to sign NDA's, etc.

Unfortunately it looks like www.leap.ie already exists, but looks like it is owned by Limerick Institute of Technology. Hopefully the NTA can convince LIT to turn the domain over to the NTA for free * or affordable price.

The site looks like it isn't being used for much useful at the moment, but would be perfect for a strong brand name.

Imagine going to leap.ie to buy leap cards, top up e-pure, buy tickets, search timetables, plan travel journeys, etc.

* leap.ie was originally owned by Magnet Networks, an ISP, but they turned it over to LIT for free. So LIT are barely usefully using it (your basic rubbish brochure ware site) and should really hand it over for a much more useful use.

noelfirl · 08-06-2011 3:46pm

I'd imagine it'll be leapcard.something as the RPA has registered the following domains-

leapcard.net
leapcard.ie
leapcard.com

pclive · 08-06-2011 3:59pm

Yet another public transport website
All PT info should be centralised on one site

bk · 08-06-2011 4:03pm

noelfirl wrote: »

I'd imagine it'll be leapcard.something as the RPA has registered the following domains-

leapcard.net
leapcard.ie
leapcard.com

I hope not, pretty crap names.

RPA, please approach leap.ie and use that as the main one, with the others all pointing at it.

pclive wrote: »

Yet another public transport website
All PT info should be centralised on one site

Well hopefully this will be the one to rule them all. It really should be the one centralised site for all PT

Niles · 08-06-2011 7:00pm

I see it says that Bus Éireann will join the system by the end of the year - if it is a Dublin area card any ideas as to how far out of the city that applies? Many BÉ routes would have their first city bound pick-up point outside of Dublin unlike the other companies mentioned.

Aard · 08-06-2011 7:13pm

I'm not sure about BE, as I never take them, but certainly once the trip gets to a certain price, the idea of a smartcard isn't that great. Nobody is likely to keep more than €15 on the card at any one time, meaning that it's just as handy to pay for high fares in cash. After a day trip to Dublin, the Drogheda 101 traveller would probably have to top up their card again. Just as easy for them to buy a return ticket, unless of course there's a cash-fare penalty.

bk · 09-06-2011 10:17am

Niles wrote: »

I see it says that Bus Éireann will join the system by the end of the year - if it is a Dublin area card any ideas as to how far out of the city that applies? Many BÉ routes would have their first city bound pick-up point outside of Dublin unlike the other companies mentioned.

I believe the plan is to eventually roll the card out to the whole country, including Cork, Galway, etc. public transport.

Aard wrote: »

I'm not sure about BE, as I never take them, but certainly once the trip gets to a certain price, the idea of a smartcard isn't that great. Nobody is likely to keep more than €15 on the card at any one time, meaning that it's just as handy to pay for high fares in cash. After a day trip to Dublin, the Drogheda 101 traveller would probably have to top up their card again. Just as easy for them to buy a return ticket, unless of course there's a cash-fare penalty.

Remember you will be able to put other tickets (monthly, annual, etc.) on this card, it isn't just an e-purse.

Aard · 09-06-2011 12:53pm

bk wrote: »

I believe the plan is to eventually roll the card out to the whole country, including Cork, Galway, etc. public transport.

Now that makes sense. I believe the Dutch OV-card is the same idea.

D'Peoples Voice · 09-06-2011 2:00pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Make no mistake but some of DB's current cash paying customers are going to take a hit,it's only a matter of which group...the €1.20's or the €2.30's.

so those of us paying €1.65 will avoid the fare increase - thank god

Toboldlygo · 09-06-2011 5:22pm

Do these guys realise that TFL (Transport for London) have announced that Oyster will become defunct sometime next year to be replaced by contactless bank cards issued by the UK Banks? Their systems will be capable of accepting contactless cards from all over the world.
Visa have announced that by the end of the year there will be 20 million bank cards issued in the UK that will be contactless enabled and Barclays have already moved on to 'tap and go' payments using your mobile phone!

This development is about 10 years too late and a waste of e55m!

By next year some of the Irish Banks will be issuing contactless debit cards and within 3 years they will have added the technology to the majority of their debit cards, but I bet it will take the transport authorities about 5 years after that to catch up and the travelling public will have to stump up again.:mad: And in the meantime we will continue to provide tourists with a 20 century payment system!

bk · 09-06-2011 5:36pm

Toboldlygo you are misinformed.

TfL are not replacing Oyster cards with contact less bank cards next year. Rather they are adding the ability to use contact less bank cards on public transport as an e-purse.

However these bank cards will not have monthly, annual tickets etc. which over 80% of travelers in London use. These users will continue to use Oyster cards.

Support for these new bank cards is primarily for tourists and visitors to the Olympics, who wouldn't normally need an Oyster card (even though an Oyster card would actually work out cheaper).

Yes, we should also some the same bank cards, for the same reason (tourists), but we would still need the Leap card for the majority of regular users and we would still have to had spend €55 million anyway, as most of that was spent on the various card readers and infrastructure, which is required if you use either Leap cards or bank cards.

BTW the future is all these cards (Oyster, Leap, Bank Cards, shop loyalty cards, gym membership cards, airline boarding passes, building access cards, etc.) being integrated into your smartphone. Yes, you will be able to have all the different cards on the same smartphone at the same time. Very handy for people who travel around the world.

L1011 · 09-06-2011 7:54pm

Toboldlygo wrote: »

By next year some of the Irish Banks will be issuing contactless debit cards and within 3 years they will have added the technology to the majority of their debit cards

There are Irish banks still issuing Laser. This is never going to get contactless tech.

You're also wildly wrong about the Oyster changes but you've already been corrected.

Toboldlygo · 09-06-2011 8:31pm

Perhaps I am a bit quick about the demise of Oyster.

http://www.finextra.com/news/fullstory.aspx?newsitemid=22301

Certainly Laser will never support contactless but also remember by the end of this year only AIB will still be issuing Laser cards, perhaps you missed the BoI announcement?

http://www.bankofireland.com/about-boi-group/press-room/press-releases/item/224/bank-of-ireland-announces-new-debit-card-for-one-million-personal-customers-offering-worldwide-access-to-cash-and-payments/

And the Visa announcement yesterday said that RBS (who own Ulster Bank) have started issuing contactless cards:

http://www.finextra.com/News/Fullstory.aspx?newsitemid=22630

By next year at least two of the banks which offer current accounts in Ireland will have started to roll out contactless cards, with announcements before the end of this year. . . . . . . just watch this space.;)

markpb · 09-06-2011 9:11pm

Toboldlygo wrote: »

And the Visa announcement yesterday said that RBS (who own Ulster Bank) have started issuing contactless cards:

http://www.finextra.com/News/Fullstory.aspx?newsitemid=22630

By next year at least two of the banks which offer current accounts in Ireland will have started to roll out contactless cards, with announcements before the end of this year. . . . . . . just watch this space.;)

I'm watching but I think you're overly optimistic. A lot of merchants have only just completed a rollout of Chip and PIN. They're not going to be in any hurry to buy more kit to accept contactless payments. And even if they do, its only really an advantage for pin-less low value transactions, an area which has very low usage in Ireland. The banks won't incur the rollout costs of moving to contactless until the merchants are ready to upgrade.

Contactless on its own is a killer app for mass transport, not so much for payments.

L1011 · 09-06-2011 9:14pm

Toboldlygo wrote: »

Certainly Laser will never support contactless but also remember by the end of this year only AIB will still be issuing Laser cards, perhaps you missed the BoI announcement?

http://www.bankofireland.com/about-boi-group/press-room/press-releases/item/224/bank-of-ireland-announces-new-debit-card-for-one-million-personal-customers-offering-worldwide-access-to-cash-and-payments/

If BOI do that a: on time and b: for everyone at once I'll be amazed. This is the bank who don't do a standard replacement cycle for cashcards ffs - until I specifically asked for a Laser card I had a battered green 365Cash card from the early 1990s, that somehow worked...

Does NIB not still issue them also?

Toboldlygo · 09-06-2011 11:56pm

MYOB wrote: »

If BOI do that a: on time and b: for everyone at once I'll be amazed. This is the bank who don't do a standard replacement cycle for cashcards ffs - until I specifically asked for a Laser card I had a battered green 365Cash card from the early 1990s, that somehow worked...

Does NIB not still issue them also?

NIB have about 3% of the debit cards in the Irish Market so they don't figure in terms of making a change in the marketplace.

Have you noticed that cards generally have a 3 year lifespan and if a bank introduces a new card they will generally do so over that period, except when its financially viable for them to change that cycle.

It would be inconceivable for a bank like BOI to change from Laser to Visa debit without making the changeover happen quicker and for more customers to expolit the benefits. If they have any sense (and believe me they are not stupid despite recent history) they will make the new cards contactless in anticipation of the major UK retailers (Tesco, McDonalds etc) rolling out the technology in Ireland at the same time as the UK. Transport is one of the major target markets for contactless technology but not the only one!

helimachoptor · 10-06-2011 2:59pm

Maybe a bit OT but are contactless cards not seriously open to fraud??

markpb · 10-06-2011 3:03pm

helimachoptor wrote: »

Maybe a bit OT but are contactless cards not seriously open to fraud??

Modern contactless smart cards are extremely secure. They are not RFID cards which simply broadcast data over the air. The communication between the card and reader can be AES/RSA/3DES encrypted and/or MAC authenticated. The keys on each card can be diversified so the master keys are not available, even if the chip is compromised. Records of every transaction will be sent back to a central clearing house and examined for fraud. If someone manages to load a dodgy ticket onto a card or fraudulently increase the purse balance, a fraud detection system can easily spot that and blacklist the card.

helimachoptor · 10-06-2011 3:06pm

Cheers Mark, what im more thinking about the physical act of someone else using the card

markpb · 10-06-2011 3:10pm

helimachoptor wrote: »

Cheers Mark, what im more thinking about the physical act of someone else using the card

If you mean stealing a card, what does contactless have to do with it?

Anyway, they'll be able to blacklist the card if you let them know. I assume that Luas and Dart card readers will pick up the new blacklist within a few minutes (or at best hours) but the buses won't pick them up till that night. You might get one day's use out of it but no more than that.

helimachoptor · 10-06-2011 3:12pm

markpb wrote: »

If you mean stealing a card, what does contactless have to do with it? )

Anyway, they'll be able to blacklist the card if you let them know. I assume that Luas and Dart card readers will pick up the new blacklist within a few minutes (or at best hours) but the buses won't pick them up till that night. You might get one day's use out of it but no more than that.

I mean, if you currently steal a card to buy something in a shop you need the pin number.

If its contactless (and the card company hasnt been notified) the thief can just go in take what they want and simply swipe the card

markpb · 10-06-2011 3:22pm

helimachoptor wrote: »

I mean, if you currently steal a card to buy something in a shop you need the pin number. If its contactless (and the card company hasnt been notified) the thief can just go in take what they want and simply swipe the card

Contactless cards can have PINs too - they're not limited to contact. For convenience, contactless credit cards can approve low-value sales without a PIN but definitely will require a PIN for higher value sales. For speed, contactless transit tickets do not require PINs beacuse it would slow down entry to buses and trains. However, the ability to block a card within a reasonably short amount of time reduces the impact of theft.

If you don't bother to report the card stolen, then the loss of money on your card is your own fault

BailMeOut · 10-06-2011 3:24pm

I was in Hong Kong a few years ago and their "Octopus" contact less card could be used all over place. I bought one at the airport to take the train but it seemed like you could use it everywhere eg in taxis, buses, coffee shops, restaurants, etc..... I was even able to use it to get door access to our office building in HK. No idea what happens to all the data collected at the back end but it was certainly a very handy card to have while there.

Aard · 10-06-2011 4:41pm

A lot of cities have two or more "versions" of their cards: personal, and anonymous. The personal ones are registered, so if you lose one, its value would be reimbursed. I think though that it's linked to one owner, so nobody else can use it. OTOH, the anonymous card can be shared (not used simultaneously though), but can't be reimbursed.

bk · 10-06-2011 4:55pm

MYOB wrote: »

There are Irish banks still issuing Laser.

Laser is definitely on the way out, both AIB and BOI are replacing it with Visa/Mastercard Debit Cards that work across europe and online.

I already have the Ulster Bank one and it is very handy. It has become a reason for people to switch to Ulster Bank, so AIB/BOI aren't going to leave that continue for too long.

MYOB wrote: »

This is never going to get contactless tech.

Never is a long time, it will eventually happen.

Either way the NTA should add support for contactless credit and debit cards for tourists as these types of cards are being rolled out in other countries.

I also expect when Apple adds support to it for iPhone, it's take up will increase very quickly.

BailMeOut wrote: »

I was in Hong Kong a few years ago and their "Octopus" contact less card could be used all over place. I bought one at the airport to take the train but it seemed like you could use it everywhere eg in taxis, buses, coffee shops, restaurants, etc..... I was even able to use it to get door access to our office building in HK. No idea what happens to all the data collected at the back end but it was certainly a very handy card to have while there.

If done well, Leap could become the same here.

There is already talk of using it for third party public transport, using it in other cities (Cork, Galway, etc.) and other companies like on street car rental companies using it.

monument · 10-06-2011 5:04pm

You can still have chip and pin with contact-less bank cards. It saves on the messing of inserting the card into a device (or the older way of of swiping the card). It's also less likely for contact-less cards to be damaged compared to chips exposed on the outside of the card or the magnate stripe.

Toboldlygo · 10-06-2011 6:54pm

helimachoptor wrote: »

Maybe a bit OT but are contactless cards not seriously open to fraud??

The limit for a singe transaction in the UK is £15 and if the amount of the purchase is more than £15, you need to put in your PIN. In addition there is a maximum amount you can spend on contactless transactions before you have to use your PIN. If the maximum is £50, then you can do 3 X £15 transactions, i.e. £45 or you could make 2 X £15 and 20 X £1 transactions, i.e £50.

The next time a contactless transaction is attempted you will be asked to insert your card and put in your PIN. Obviously, the settings are determined by the bank which issued the card and this allows them to limit the exposure to fraud.

Mind you if a fraudster can get thousands by skimming one card and using it at an ATM, I can't see them rushing to commit fraud on contactless cards, unless they can steal thousands of cards at a time.

Contactless technology is just an added function on normal cards. The enabler is, of course, the electronic chip with a wireless transmitter added to the card and that is why mobile phones will also come into play because the phone can either have another chip built in or the functionalty can been put onto the SIM card.

L1011 · 10-06-2011 8:10pm

bk wrote: »

Laser is definitely on the way out, both AIB and BOI are replacing it with Visa/Mastercard Debit Cards that work across europe and online.

BOI Lasers (as Maestro) work across Europe, except the UK where its patchy as hell due to bad software in readers that balks at 19 digit card numbers. I've used mine extensively in Belgium and Holland for everything from petrol to transport tickets to hotels.

bk wrote: »

Never is a long time, it will eventually happen.

This is Laser we're talking about, never is truth.

Stinicker · 11-06-2011 3:14am

I do hope they offer something of interest for the tourists, if I was a tourist to Dublin I'd be pretty p'd off with the current situation compared to more enlightened European cities.

markpb · 11-06-2011 8:56am

Stinicker wrote: »

I do hope they offer something of interest for the tourists, if I was a tourist to Dublin I'd be pretty p'd off with the current situation compared to more enlightened European cities.

I've had to buy tickets and smartcards for other cities and I never got annoyed - I suspect most people would be the same :-) What TfL are doing is a nice convenience but it definitely should not be a top priority here. Let's get it working for the vast, vast majority of Dublin transport users first and worry about the nice-to-haves later.

johnmcdnl · 11-06-2011 10:39am

would someone mind explaining how this system is going to actually work..

AlekSmart · 11-06-2011 11:52am

Stinicker wrote: »

I do hope they offer something of interest for the tourists, if I was a tourist to Dublin I'd be pretty p'd off with the current situation compared to more enlightened European cities.

Well,Stinicker...yes and no....:)

However you do raise a somewhat pertinent point as to how the Tourist Transport market is catered for presently.

Three times in the past week,in the same geographical area,I have encountered Foreign Visitors attempting to use a particular type of "Dublin" Ticket on ordinary Bus Services.

This ticket is "The Dublin Pass" and is marketed through this site.....

http://www.dublinpass.ie/dublinpass/default.asp?refID=

In it's adult form it costs €65 for a 3 Day "pass" and at first glance appears to be a comprehensive "Dublin" pass indeed....BUT ...BUT !!....it does NOT INCLUDE Bus Travel in the City,whilst it does include the Aircoach from/to the Airport.

The folks I encountered had all been marketed this "Pass" as an all-inclusive one which "Took care of everything" on their visit.

All of the holders I encountered were adamant that they had been sold the ticket as a "Bus" transport ticket.

This aside I feel the Dublin Bus 3 Day (72 Hour) Freedom Ticket offers most visitors a very good deal indeed with Airlink-City Tour,and Scheduled Services all covered for €26 per adult (€24.50 if purchased through the DublinPass website !)

I would suggest that the Dublin Bus offering of itself,would more than satisfy most short-stay visitors in Public Transport terms.

That said,I would have reservations concerning the marketing of the Dublin-Pass item itself as I feel it is far to easy for visitors to be suggestively-sold something which in-effect is a totally different product to what the customers THINKS they are purchasing.

"Leap" - Dublin's New Integrated Ticketing Name!

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