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Scientific explanation for Ghosts?

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,237 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500160_162-994766.html



    So, not just girls, but mostly younger girls?

    I'm not trying to make a point or anything, but I'm just wondering why this is. What do you think?

    While surveys confirm that females are more likely to believe in woo, I have no idea why this is the case. It might be because of the media that they are exposed to (ie conditioning) or it might be related to the lack of interest in maths/physics/programing (conditioning can't be ruled out there either).

    I honestly can't say.

    This is one of those questions that makes me want Wibbs to pop by and offer some theories.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭Masteroid


    http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500160_162-994766.html



    So, not just girls, but mostly younger girls?

    I'm not trying to make a point or anything, but I'm just wondering why this is. What do you think?

    If we accept that the male and female brains are wired differently then we should expect a difference in distribution of experiences of supernatural phenomena due to gender one way or the other.

    Another difference in the wiring is responsible for women being more instinctive or more affected by their sub-conscious than men are in general. In general women are more affected by their emotions. I think that women would tend to be more superstitious too as a throwback to one of Jung's archetypes. Being able to sense trouble through intuition has protected many women from all sorts of perils. This makes sense since the fact that they live in a world occupied by men who desire to possess them means that women have to understand the world in a fundamentally different way to how men do.

    I mean think about it, men need to be kept happy by their women whereas men only have to make their women happy occasionally.

    Also, women who are afraid of ghosts attract men that would protect them. This could be a naturally selected trait that ensures some level of security which is important for most women.

    Finally, and again probably archetypal, it is more likely that a woman would be stalked and attacked by a man than vice versa. Therefore the ability to be able to sense the presence of a human male such as might cause a woman to feel as if she is being watched might serve as protection and the tendency to be able to actually perceive a presence in that way could again be naturally selected.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Ziphius


    Masteroid wrote: »
    If we accept that the male and female brains are wired differently then we should expect a difference in distribution of experiences of supernatural phenomena due to gender one way or the other.
    But why would we expect this? Women certainly seem to have a higher interested and belief in supernatural phenomena such as astrology, psychics, and ghosts than men. I'm interested to know why this is but I reckon it's more likely due to targeted marketing of women via news papers or magazines and/or socialisation than a difference between male and female brain organisation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 345 ✭✭spankmaster2000


    Ziphius wrote: »
    I reckon it's more likely due to targeted marketing of women via news papers or magazines and/or socialisation than a difference between male and female brain organisation.

    Yeah, but I'd say that's a "chicken and egg" situation. I think the marketing is targeted towards the female demographic, purely because they respond better to this topic / subject anyway.
    Socialisation is the more likely of the two.

    Maybe to flip the question on it's head - it's not that women are "encouraged" to believe more; but maybe rather that men are "discouraged" from believing?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭Masteroid


    Ziphius wrote: »
    But why would we expect this? Women certainly seem to have a higher interested and belief in supernatural phenomena such as astrology, psychics, and ghosts than men. I'm interested to know why this is but I reckon it's more likely due to targeted marketing of women via news papers or magazines and/or socialisation than a difference between male and female brain organisation.

    Well, astrology and psychics, etc., are not supernatural phenomena, they are scams carried out by fraudsters who prey on people, male and female, who are 'lost', feel that they have no control over their lives and are looking for answers to questions that they don't really ask. They tap into human insecurities for profit.

    I think it has been shown that supernatural phenomena can have an external cause and I would suggest that it may be possible to define supernatural phenomena in terms of an interaction between the aura of the person having the experience and any other similar type of energy field including other auras of other people and, perhaps, of any sentient being.

    If we regard what is measured by an EEG as being part of a field from which the aura is constructed and accept that a dynamic electrostatic field exists around every brain then it is easy to see how external electromagnetic/electrostatic fields might induce changes in an aura that could possibly be 'felt' at a neural level.

    It may simply be the case that women have more sensitive sensing apparatus than men. And again this would make some sense in an evolutionary context. It is in a woman's interest to avoid trouble whereas men pick up swords and look for trouble. Women benefit more from early warning systems than men and natural selection might favour those who respond to supernatural phenomena.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Ziphius


    Yeah, but I'd say that's a "chicken and egg" situation. I think the marketing is targeted towards the female demographic, purely because they respond better to this topic / subject anyway.

    Fair point.
    Masteroid wrote: »
    Well, astrology and psychics, etc., are not supernatural phenomena,

    I'd group belief in psychics, ghosts, alien abduction and so on together. Do you think 'paranormal phenomena' would be a fairer collective term?
    Masteroid wrote: »
    I think it has been shown that supernatural phenomena can have an external cause and I would suggest that it may be possible to define supernatural phenomena in terms of an interaction between the aura of the person having the experience and any other similar type of energy field including other auras of other people and, perhaps, of any sentient being.

    I don't understand what you mean by a person's 'aura'. And I disagree that any supernatural phenomena have been proven to exist.
    Masteroid wrote: »
    If we regard what is measured by an EEG as being part of a field from which the aura is constructed and accept that a dynamic electrostatic field exists around every brain then it is easy to see how external electromagnetic/electrostatic fields might induce changes in an aura that could possibly be 'felt' at a neural level.

    To clarify. You are saying that 'ghost' (or sentient aware agents) can communicate with people via electromagnetic fields (or something similar)?

    Masteroid wrote: »
    Women benefit more from early warning systems than men and natural selection might favour those who respond to supernatural phenomena.

    Is this really true though? While women, generally, seem to have more acute senses than men, for example women tend to be better at differentiating colours, I would be wary of attributing this to differential selection pressure between the sexes. I think a more likely explanation would be the fact that women posses two copies of the X chromosome per cell whereas men only have one. Women can use the second X chromosome to compensate for any poor genes on the first. Whereas men cannot. This is why colour blindness is more prevalent in heterozygous XY men.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭Masteroid


    Ziphius wrote: »
    I'd group belief in psychics, ghosts, alien abduction and so on together. Do you think 'paranormal phenomena' would be a fairer collective term?

    Mystic Meg may say she is in contact with the spirit world but she's not really. Astrologers, clairvoyants, tarot readers make unfalsifiable claims that appeal to the weak of mind. This is neither supernatural nor paranormal, it's simply fraud. Belief in psychics and astrology is no different in nature to faith in doctors or science. Or religion for that matter.

    People who get a spooky feeling of being watched by eyes that can't be seen are experiencing an actual effect that is qualitatively different from that which is experienced by someone phoning a tarot-card reader for advice on life.
    Ziphius wrote: »
    I don't understand what you mean by a person's 'aura'. And I disagree that any supernatural phenomena have been proven to exist.

    The brain produces a field which can be sensed to some extent by an EEG machine. I am suggesting that that entire electrostatic field generated by the brain could be considered to be an 'aura'. It would be dynamic in nature because the movement of ions in the brain is a dynamic process. It could be that the electrostatic field can be effected by other electrostatic fields that can effect the brain at a neural level thus acting as a sensory input that can be utilised by mechanisms of the brain.

    Perhaps I wasn't clear: I think that all supernatural phenomena have their roots in the physical realm and are in fact 'natural' phenomena. What I'm saying is that some people experience things that defy explanation. Things like having the feeling that you're being watched or being warned of impending disaster by a long-dead loved-one and everything in between. These things actually occur in reality, the causes of these kinds of experiences are what I refer to as 'supernatural phenomena' which are real effects with real causes.
    Ziphius wrote: »
    To clarify. You are saying that 'ghost' (or sentient aware agents) can communicate with people via electromagnetic fields (or something similar)?

    No more than a river can communicate with people due to their proximity to it. If you are looking for water and you are close enough, the river will tell you that it is there.

    I am saying that in the same way that a river provides information to the ears, 'auras' constitute a data source for the brain. My thinking is that electromagnetic energy can cause the aura to become distorted, lines of force being stretched and compressed in sympathy with an external field. I can envision how currents could be induced in the brain that interferes with ion movement and that the brain may be able to detect those changes and initiate a response that removes you from dangers posed by earthquakes or electrical storms etc. A little fine tuning by natural selection and to a certain extent, we read minds.
    Ziphius wrote: »
    Is this really true though? While women, generally, seem to have more acute senses than men, for example women tend to be better at differentiating colours, I would be wary of attributing this to differential selection pressure between the sexes. I think a more likely explanation would be the fact that women posses two copies of the X chromosome per cell whereas men only have one. Women can use the second X chromosome to compensate for any poor genes on the first. Whereas men cannot. This is why colour blindness is more prevalent in heterozygous XY men.

    I don't know if it's really true but I do know that women necessarily have a different world-view to men. Men only have to contend with each other whereas women have to contend with each other but in addition they have to contend with men too. For reasons of survival, women had to learn about men, they had to cross a mental bridge that men don't have. It would seem natural to me that the ability to empathise is the result of selection pressures between the sexes.

    Of course, intuitiion is a tool that benefits a man too but I think he gets it from his mother.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Ziphius


    Masteroid wrote: »
    People who get a spooky feeling of being watched by eyes that can't be seen are experiencing an actual effect that is qualitatively different from that which is experienced by someone phoning a tarot-card reader for advice on life.

    Of course. However feeling like your being watched is ostensibly an evolved trait that improves our survival chances. I don't think it's the actual perceptions of some yet un-described sensory organ.

    Whether there is a difference between frequency of such "spooky feelings" I don't know but I doubt that it is significant if it at all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭Masteroid


    Ziphius wrote: »
    Of course. However feeling like your being watched is ostensibly an evolved trait that improves our survival chances. I don't think it's the actual perceptions of some yet un-described sensory organ.

    Whether there is a difference between frequency of such "spooky feelings" I don't know but I doubt that it is significant if it at all.

    I'm not really aware of any statistical analysis in relation to gender differences effecting supernatural perceptions but I was trying to imagine what might be the cause of such a difference if there is one.

    As far as supernatural experiences are concerned though, I am suggesting that those 'evolved trait(s)' you mentioned are the same mechanisms that give rise to supernatural feelings. And further, that the ability to sense disturbances that are not interacting with the five basic senses gives one a survival 'edge'. I think that talented 'cold-readers' can tap into this ability and pass themselves of as 'psychics' which, in a way, they are if we tightly define 'psychic'.

    I'm more of a cynic myself and I have also tapped into this 'power' in the sense that I can 'read the signs' of a disturbance that is detrimental to me or mine.

    So, not a new, hitherto unknown human sensory organ but one that is very poorly understood.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 64 ✭✭ButtimersLaw


    Masteroid wrote: »

    I'm more of a cynic myself and I have also tapped into this 'power' in the sense that I can 'read the signs' of a disturbance that is detrimental to me or mine.

    .

    The only sensible position to take about subjects like astrology, ghosts, homoeopathy, mystics, and the huge amount of other psychic claims is to be sceptical. While it's possible that such things exist, it is notable that no one has yet been able to demonstrate they have the powers they claim, under properly observed conditions.

    What we know is that that particular world is filled with many charlatans, and while it might be possible to demonstrate that there are ghosts, or psychics who can talk to the dead and so on, it's noticeable that not one has yet done so, under proper observing conditions.

    The real question is why so many of us want want to believe in things without proper evidence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 103 ✭✭Jan Hus


    Ghosts are a stupid idea.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 64 ✭✭ButtimersLaw


    Jan Hus wrote: »
    Ghosts are a stupid idea.

    Beautifully argued!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Ziphius


    The real question is why so many of us want want to believe in things without proper evidence.

    Indeed. I imagine it's simply a way to avoid thinking about about our own mortality.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 64 ✭✭ButtimersLaw


    Ziphius wrote: »
    Indeed. I imagine it's simply a way to avoid thinking about about our own mortality.

    I can understand that, but there must be more to it than just that. Those who believe in various religions may well want that sort of succor, but for many its a desire to believe in obvious untruths and nonsense in a mroe immediate sense.

    For example, I have a friend who believes in all sorts of mumbo jumbo and can remember him putting on his serious face and holding a pointy thing on a piece of string ("even a sygnet ring will do" he used to say) over the mother and predicting the sex of the baby, depending whether it swung clockwise or anti clockwise over the mother. He had a 50% chance of being right, and it's astonishing how many times he got it wrong in retrospect.

    Many want to believe that others have psychic powers and thousands or probably millions wanted to believe that Uri Gellar could read minds and was some sort of psychic watch-mender.

    Evidently people still pay self proclaimed psychics like Sylvia Brown large sums of money in the believe she has some sort of psychic ability to know things about them or their loved ones. Then thers's homoeopathy, aliens, ghosts and so and so on.

    Why do some of us want to believe such nonsense?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Ziphius


    I can understand that, but there must be more to it than just that. Those who believe in various religions may well want that sort of succor, but for many its a desire to believe in obvious untruths and nonsense in a mroe immediate sense.

    Oh yes, of course. I meant that as an explanation for belief in ghosts and afterlife specifically.

    I think a lot of people (most?) are damn uncomfortable with the unpredictability of real life. That someone with a deck of cards can predict your future or use a a pendulum to sex an unborn child is a kind of comfort.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 64 ✭✭ButtimersLaw


    Ziphius wrote: »
    That someone with a deck of cards can predict your future or use a a pendulum to sex an unborn child is a kind of comfort.

    I think its pretty clear that no one can predict my future or use a pendulum to sex an unborn child. Some pretend they can, but no one can do either with any degree of accuracy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Ziphius


    I think its pretty clear that no one can predict my future or use a pendulum to sex an unborn child. Some pretend they can, but no one can do either with any degree of accuracy.

    I imagine not all of them are pretending . Some of these practitioners genuinely believe in their own ability. And probably for the same reasons as other people.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 64 ✭✭ButtimersLaw


    Ziphius wrote: »
    I imagine not all of them are pretending . Some of these practitioners genuinely believe in their own ability. And probably for the same reasons as other people.

    I have a friend who is a doctor in the Maudsley Hospital in London and she tells me that a surprising number of her patients genuinely believe they are Jesus Christ.

    Just because someone might genuinely believe in their own ability doesn't mean they have a genuine ability. While we all have to make up our own minds about the probability of ghosts, or any other pyschic or supernatural claims, it's interesting that no proof has ever been forthcoming for ghosts or that astrology can predict the future any better than chance, and so and so on.

    We certainly have evidence that the world of those who claim to be psychic contains charlatans, and contains people who are either deluded or deceptive in that their predictions can be seen to be false. I am not aware of even one person who claims to be psychic or able to tap into the supernatural who has been able to demonstrate with any degree of accuracy their claims in all the years and decades that these claims have been made.

    I agree that the reason these sorts of people thrive is that there are so many others who wish to suspend their faculties and want to believe the mumbo jumbo these people spout.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Ziphius


    I am not aware of even one person who claims to be psychic or able to tap into the supernatural who has been able to demonstrate with any degree of accuracy their claims in all the years and decades that these claims have been made.

    Yup. James Randi has a million dollar prize for anyone you can show evidence of psychic ability in controlled conditions. It is yet unclaimed.

    What is your take on the apparent male female divide in belief in the paranormal that was discussed earlier in this thread?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 64 ✭✭ButtimersLaw


    Ziphius wrote: »
    Yup. James Randi has a million dollar prize for anyone you can show evidence of psychic ability in controlled conditions. It is yet unclaimed.

    What is your take on the apparent male female divide in belief in the paranormal that was discussed earlier in this thread?

    I don't know anything about the male female divide so can't help with that.

    My understanding is that women in general express a higher propensity than men to believe in paranormal beliefs, while men are likely to express a higher propensity to believe in UFO's and extra terrestrials than women.

    My approach is to examine every situation on its own merits and, as best as I can, and come to a conclusion, and so my interest is more in the veracity or otherwise of the individual phenomena rather than in the social or gender divides of those who decide they want to believe in them.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,714 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    i have always wondered when people talk of ghosts and the paranormal, they end up talking about mediums and psychics. its easy to realise mediums and psychics are usually fake (i would say always, but best to remain skeptical rather than cynical). that does not explain the many other factors related to the paranormal though. granted, it is easier to boil it all down to fake mediums than it is to go out there and try and find out.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,471 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    maccored wrote: »
    its easy to realise mediums and psychics are usually fake (i would say always, but best to remain skeptical rather than cynical).
    The official position on psychics is fairly clear , it's for entertainment purposes only.

    http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/tv3-psychics-live-bai-complaint-619256-Oct2012/
    The BAI upheld the complaints, however, noting that the psychic had made no effort to end the first call when it had became clear the caller was seeking advice on a health issue.

    In the second call, the BAI found that the presenter had raised health issues independent of the caller – and, in saying a particular tarot card “means you are alone and you are prone to depression”, had delivered ”an individualised assessment” of the caller’s personality.

    The general broadcasting code permits fortune-telling and psychic broadcasts only when they are clearly advertised as being for entertainment purposes only, with predictions issued only as a matter of opinion.

    TV3 will now be required to air an on-air sequence acknowledging the breach of the code.

    Just an aside , people are good at picking up on stuff, vibes, atmosphere whatever. If you are ever abroad and someone in your group has a bad feeling about going somewhere / doing something take the hint, it's probably nothing but it could be that they are more attuned to the locals than you are.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 64 ✭✭ButtimersLaw


    maccored wrote: »
    that does not explain the many other factors related to the paranormal though. granted, it is easier to boil it all down to fake mediums than it is to go out there and try and find out.

    Do you believe in other paranormal events. Care to discuss?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Ziphius


    My understanding is that women in general express a higher propensity than men to believe in paranormal beliefs, while men are likely to express a higher propensity to believe in UFO's and extra terrestrials than women.

    That's what the data I've seen suggests. I wonder if there is a male bias in belief in conspiracey theories. In my own experience it seems more man than women are interested in these.

    My guess is that men and women are equally as likely to believe in crazy ideas -- ghosts, astrology, ancient aliens or whatever. They just have different, culturally determined, preferences.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 64 ✭✭ButtimersLaw


    Ziphius wrote: »
    My guess is that men and women are equally as likely to believe in crazy ideas -- ghosts, astrology, ancient aliens or whatever. They just have different, culturally determined, preferences.


    I think the onus is then on the rest of us to explore and question their ideas to see if they are likely to be bogus or if there is evidence that their crazy ideas might lead somewhere more interesting.

    Personally, I don't mind ideas which might be crazy as it’s often the one crazy idea out of millions which is right and which helps man to progress, discover and learn about ourselves and the world around us.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,471 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    I think the onus is then on the rest of us to explore and question their ideas to see if they are likely to be bogus or if there is evidence that their crazy ideas might lead somewhere more interesting.
    No.

    In science the onus is on the person making the extra-ordinary claims to back them up with reproducible evidence.


    Personally, I don't mind ideas which might be crazy as it’s often the one crazy idea out of millions which is right and which helps man to progress, discover and learn about ourselves and the world around us.
    A reminder that this is a science forum.

    Only those crazy ideas that are falsifiable are allowed.
    Until testable theories are proposed it's too early to call it science.


    By definition you must accept that most of crazy ideas are indeed crazy.

    Venture capital is about a whole litany of failure and bankruptcy with a few success having to pay for the cost of all the failures. It's no use having a crazy idea unless it's a game changer.



    You also have to rule out background effects too.

    Has anyone done a survey of the incidence of ghost sightings relative to the arrival of electric lighting ?

    Also speaking of lighting you have to consider the Hawthorne Effect. The researchers thought they had found a link between increased lighting levels and worker productivity. Until they lowered the light levels again and productivity still went up, in the end it was the interaction between the researchers and subjects that may have been responsible.



    Re the "one crazy idea" I like this bit from Terry Prachett , Small Gods. (It's a parody on ancient Greece)
    "What's a philosopher?" said Brutha.

    "Someone who's bright enough to find a job with no heavy lifting," said a voice in his head.

    "An infidel seeking the just fate he shall surely receive," said Vorbis. "An inventor of fallacies. This cursed city attracts them like a dung heap attracts flies."

    "Actually, it's the climate," said the voice of the tortoise. "Think about it. If you're inclined to leap out of your bath and run down the street every time you think you've got a bright idea, you don't want to do it somewhere cold. If you do do it somewhere cold, you die out. That's natural selection, that is. Ephebe's known for its philosophers. It's better than street theater."

    "What, a lot of old men running around the streets with no clothes on?" said Brutha, under his breath, as they were marched onward.

    "More or less. If you spend your whole time thinking about the universe, you tend to forget the less important bits of it. Like your pants. And ninety-nine out of a hundred ideas they come up with are totally useless."

    "Why doesn't anyone lock them away safely, then? They don't sound much use to me," said Brutha.

    "Because the hundredth idea," said Om, "is generally a humdinger."

    "What?"

    "Look up at the highest tower on the rock."

    Brutha looked up. At the top of the tower, secured by metal bands, was a big disc that glittered in the morning light.

    "What is it?" he whispered.

    "The reason why Omnia hasn't got much of a fleet any more," said Om. "That's why it's always worth having a few philosophers around the place. One minute it's all Is Truth Beauty and Is Beauty Truth, and Does a Falling Tree in the Forest Make a Sound if There's No one There to Hear It, and then just when you think they're going to start dribbling one of 'em says, Incidentally, putting a thirty-foot parabolic reflector on a high place to shoot the rays of the sun at an enemy's ships would be a very interesting demonstration of optical principles,"


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 64 ✭✭ButtimersLaw


    No.

    In science the onus is on the person making the extra-ordinary claims to back them up with reproducible evidence.

    QUOTE]

    Yes, I agree. And if they don’t it’s my intention to question them and prod them into looking at the available evidence.
    No.

    Only those crazy ideas that are falsifiable are allowed.
    Until testable theories are proposed it's too early to call it science.


    By definition you must accept that most of crazy ideas are indeed crazy.

    Of course, crazy ideas are, by definition, crazy. And that’s true even if someone doesn’t accept it!

    It would once have been thought to be crazy to have argued that the earth was not flat, and even after evidence was produced it was still thought to be anti establishment, so it took some time to persuade most scientists that the earth was not flat.


    You also have to rule out background effects too.

    Has anyone done a survey of the incidence of ghost sightings relative to the arrival of electric lighting ?

    I think it’s pretty clear now that many supernatural or psychic events are bogus. For example, homoeopathy has had about 250 years to come up with some evidence, and it has still failed to do so. How many more years will it need?

    Ghosts, astrology and so and so on are similarly struggling to actually find any evidence beyond a willingness to believe.

    The jury is not out on these things, it’s pretty evident they are bogus, and will remain so until such times as evidence is produced.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,471 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    It would once have been thought to be crazy to have argued that the earth was not flat, and even after evidence was produced it was still thought to be anti establishment, so it took some time to persuade most scientists that the earth was not flat.
    Actually people didn't think the earth was flat.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Ziphius


    Actually people didn't think the earth was flat.

    Do you know why this meme is so often repeated? People have thought the Earth was round for thousands of years.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 64 ✭✭ButtimersLaw


    Actually people didn't think the earth was flat.

    I have no idea about people, and can only speak for myself. I am aware that some people didn't think the earth was flat, and others did. Actually, I think there is still a flat earth society and some of its people still profess the view that they think the earth is flat.

    In any case, the flat earth reference was meant as a metaphor.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭Masteroid


    I think it is clear that people have experiences that defy explanation. It would be more accurate to say that psychics and mediums take advantage of the fact that 'supernatural' and 'paranormal' phenomena are so inadequately explained.

    But people do experience 'supernatural' and 'paranormal' phenomena and the feelings they cause are manifest in reality.

    In other words, every sighting of a ghost has an effect on entropy.

    In this sense, 'supernatural' and 'paranormal' phenomena are a result of natural and normal processes and science must concede that there is an area of research available to it in this field.

    I would like to say something about 'onus' and 'burden of proof' now. While it may be the case that all psychics and mediums are cranks and thieves, this is not sufficient to show that supernatural phenomena and experiences can be dismissed by science. The fact that so many people make supernatural claims is in itself evidence of something and science has a responsibility to investigate these claims despite the fact that noone can prove that they have seen a ghost.

    Let us consider a supernatural phenomena that is widely accepted as 'in existence' - Love.

    How does one prove that they love someone? Does the purcase and presentation of flowers and chocolates qualify as incontrovertible proof of love? Some might consider that more to be proof of guilt. Does throwing himself off a high building constitute proof of a jilted jumper's love or does it demonstrate the instability of his/her mind? Who can know love except those in love?

    And what approach should science take to love? Should anecdotal evidence have more scientific validity when it is related by a scientist?

    Of course science must investigate the phenomenon of love in order to understand the human condition in a more complete way.

    And it is the same for supernatural phenomena. There is an onus on psychics and mediums to prove that they are not thieves but there is also a burden on science to prove that they are in order to better understand human nature.

    I'd like to say something about the male/female divide in relation to conspiracy theories, UFO sightings, etc., as I think this can be explained in the same terms as those I suggested as reasons for the male/female divide in relation to paranormal activity.

    As I said earlier, it's a man's world and the problems of men trump the problems of women. That's why we have war - men don't mind sending their sons off to die as much as women do so the fact that we have wars at all is evidence that it is a man's world. In the case of women, empathy and guile are more useful tools than muscles and big sticks whereas the opposite is true in the case of men.

    In the case of women, the mechanisms that are concerned with empathy and guile are the same mechanisms that give rise to paranormal perceptions and are a consequence of evolution that serve as a survival tool, a weapon even, for women. I'm not trying to state facts here, these are simply suggestions.

    Women have to navigate a world of men and women and they have to do so without the aid of the 'might' and 'aggression' tools at the disposal of men whereas men need only be concerned about other men in a parallel world where empathy might be construed as weakness and strength and a big stick are much more useful as tools with which to overcome obstacles.

    Women have evolved a mechanism, a kind of radar if you will, that is tuned to a particular frequency scanning for certain types of event that will, upon detection, elicit a certain response. In men, the equivalent mechanism has evolved to be tuned to a different frequency, scanning for a different kind of event which, upon detection, elicits a different response.

    An intruder alert system would make a good analogy. Men and women have developed two different kinds of alarm system. One is based on a trip-wire which causes an alarm to be sounded and the other is a pressure sensitive mat which causes a two-ton weight to be dropped.

    The thing is, there are things other than an intruder that can trip these alarms but the alarms themselves provide no data concerning such events. When the alarm is tripped, there is a subconscious assumption made that a certain type of event has occured.

    In women, a false trigger is perceived as an 'other-worldly' unseen force whereas in men, a false trigger is percieved as a possible unseen enemy in the real world. In men, this gives rise to feelings of fear, suspicion and paranoia just the same as it does in women but it causes men to sharpen their swords in readiness to protect himself whereas women try to hide in order to protect themselves.

    It is useful for man to perceive that conspiracies are in operation, it keeps him sharp. It is especially useful to men who are imperialistic by nature, i.e., do unto others what you suspect they want to do to you before they have the opportunity to do it. That's how empires are built and empires are built by superstitious men.

    It's not supernatural or paranormal, it's evolution.


  • Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭Wereghost


    partyndbs wrote: »
    i dont really believe in ghosts much but i want 2 no what the **** called me and my sister from our mum and dads room when we were younger...i wouldnt mind if it was just me who remembers it but so does my sister...like omg that fear i experienced when i heard that voice will stick with me for ever.....calling out our names :eek: omg
    That reminds me of a time when we were at my grandparents' house in the country and my younger siblings, who had gone to bed, had been making noise in the room. My grandmother complained - so I snuck outside the window and intoned "I am the boogeyman - and I'm going to get " (names kids). There was a short pause, followed by terrified screams. My dad went into the room and , when he told them that there was no boogeyman, was informed that there was because they had heard him. The truth did out pretty quickly, though. :)


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