Super Sized Bus Stop - Rathmines Rd Upper

MiniD · 20-06-2006 9:09am

To the original poster, Linogue. Buses have been using this stretch of road for many years, and I'm sure that stop was there when you moved in to your flat. Your main argument seems to be that the bus bay now has markings, presumably because residents were parking at the bus stop, ignoring the fact that buses do need to pull into the kerb. This stop is not oversized, infact if you compare it to others in the area you will see how similar they are. You came on with incorrect facts which Aquavid has rightly corrected. The 14A is a busy route and Rathmines is a busy area, so it is only right the bus should be able to pull in, be thankful your road does not have a bus lane.
Perhaps when you move next you should check there is no bus stop outside your door!

Aquavid · 20-06-2006 9:27am

Linoge wrote:

Kinda looking forward to what Aquavid will say next though!:D

I'm not here to start any huge argument - just wanted to make sure that the facts were not skewed too far in the anti-bus direction

If you do try to contact the various authorities about this stop, be prepared to meet with a wall of indifference.

I contacted both the City Council and the Gardai back in 2004 when the changes at Stephens Green resulted in a stop being allocated to the 48A that was totally blocked by nose to kerb pay parking, resulting in pax having to disembark through lines of parked cars.

The first reaction was to deny that this was the case. I had obviously never been to Stephens Green, and did not know what I was talking about.

I sent them photos.

There followed a long period of silence, followed by blame-shifting when I continued to follow up.

Eventually I published my article (as per "Conflicts of Interest" section, I am Irish Correspondent for the transport trade journal "Coach & Bus Week" ) .

The magazine goes to various people in the trade, including Department of Transport, and would be read by many local authorities in the UK, and by people who might be in the same professional bodies as some of our transport professionals over here.

Within 24 hours of publication, a City Council crew had come out at 2am, and burned all the parking bay markings off the road.

The following day I received a call from the Garda press Office, and was told in a smirking voice "We have been down to the site this morning, and the situation is not as you described it, there are no parking bays at the bus stop, you were mistaken".

So, as I said, be prepared for a wall of indifference if you make any complaint.

However, I do have to thank you for the photo pointing out the lack of a marked bus bay on the other side of the road, resulting in a similar situation.

Rest assured that this will be my next mission . . .

Aquavid

Linoge · 20-06-2006 9:28am

murphaph wrote:

I have no problem with car ownership or whatever.

Well, can you see how I would get a bit defensive when people say I shouldn't even own a car? I'm having to justify car ownership and living in Rathmines here as well as ranting about the bus stop!

I feel like a smoggie! http://www.babalaclub.com/imagenes/dibus/smoggies_ok.jpg

murphaph wrote:

Dublin is perfectly comparable with a german city of similar size for our purposes. Here's why-you are claiming that because your average 1 million citizen german city has a proper rail network and Dublin doesn't, that we shouldn't compare traffic management strategies?

I agree, but traffic management should be somewhat in line with what the transport system can accomodate. This is a wholly different argument though. I would love to see Dublin have a metro at the expensive of anything or anyone.

murphaph wrote:

I've been to Germany more times than I can remember, to multiple cities. People often park their cars a long walk from home as they only use them at the weekend. Nobody would expect a space outside their flat. You'd be very lucky if you got one. Dublin Bus has it's faults, but I am willing to bet that public transport is better even in Dublin than Addis Ababa.

Its not what I expect, its what I am entitled to. Whether you like to admit it or not, this is not Germany. Dublin is a city where people park outside the front of their house. I am not entitled to a parking permit as my side of the road is free parking. The other side is pay parking. They have decided to put a bus stop on my side of the road and not on the other. I have no problem with bus stops, buses (massive problem with Dublin Bus though:mad: ) etc but the standards should be homogenous across the city, or even just on the same road.

murphaph wrote:

I am
Look at the proliferation of Red Routes in London over the past few years-more and more stopping/parking restrictions to help the traffic move. The fact is that bus stops have been too small for years in Dublin-leading to offside loading and other dangerous practices which put passengers at risk. In this day ad age of access for disabled folks/babies buggies the bus simply MUST be able to get fully parallel to the kerb to enable it to kneel safely. If an area has a lot of on-street parking then the bus stop has to be longer than in an area where no such parking takes place. I'm not a bus or HGV driver but I'd challenge you to parallel park a double decker bus between two cars in a space the exact length of that bus (or even a good bit longer!), and remember-the bus can't reverse parallel park-it has to get parallel to the kerb by driving forwards at all times and they may be future proofing the stop to take two or more buses at the same time, further increasing the length of the required stop.

I agree that although the bus stop is quite large, it is probably not oversized by todays standards.

I've changed my rant to "I have to suffer it, everyone else should too".

popebenny16 · 20-06-2006 12:35pm

Lads, is there any chance that when the line painters were going about their duties they simply read the measurements wrong and made the box too big?

As for the O/p and his dirty, filthy car which is going to kill my children (how sweet and innocent they look) I now know where you live and you may find a lot of skips may be coming your way, so dump your car in that, you swine!!

BTW, like another poster above, I have to declare a conflict of interest. I dated a bus once, she was lovely, but it all ended in tyres.

Hotblack Desiato · 21-06-2006 1:11am

Linoge wrote:

Dublin is a city where people park outside the front of their house.

And have come to regard this as some sort of entitlement... :rolleyes:

Linoge · 21-06-2006 8:37am

ninja900 wrote:

And have come to regard this as some sort of entitlement... :rolleyes:

Quite literally yes. Do you regard free education as your entitlement?:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

And popebenny, sorry about your children, but I think my 5 litre Caddy (parked with 2 wheels on the kerb in a handicapped spot) is a little more important than a few children:D

Húrin · 22-06-2006 4:52am

Wow OP, you live so near me. I agree that the bus stop is rather long to justify considering how only one route travels that road.

markpb · 22-06-2006 8:28am

H&#250 wrote: »

Wow OP, you live so near me. I agree that the bus stop is rather long to justify considering how only one route travels that road.

*bangs head*

Did you read any of the replies or just skip to the end? There's a perfectly decent bus service serving that road, who cares if its just one bus route? Buses need space to bull in and out, they don't scuttle sideways into bus stops that are the same size as their own shadow. People park right up to bus stops so extra space is needed to allow the bus to scuttle back out of the bus stop again. It's on a corner so extra space is needed because buses are, shockingly, longer than cars.

There are countless, valid, reasons for big bus stops.

Hotblack Desiato · 22-06-2006 9:28am

Linoge wrote:

Quite literally yes. Do you regard free education as your entitlement?:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

How on earth are the two remotely comparable? But ridiculous analogies are only the start of it, car commuters want to force everyone in this city to fall in with the serious drawbacks of their chosen lifestyle.

Whatever you might think, or wish was the case, there is no automatic right to park your vehicle in any public place. Either park on private property or accept the restrictions, rules and regulations put in place by the public authorities to control and regulate the use of limited road space.

Car commuting is destroying this city and the quality of life for everyone who lives within it - including you - you just don't realise it yet.

And popebenny, sorry about your children, but I think my 5 litre Caddy (parked with 2 wheels on the kerb in a handicapped spot) is a little more important than a few children:D

Remove the smiley and that's the attitude of many Dublin car drivers in a nutshell!

cast_iron · 22-06-2006 5:30pm

ninja900 wrote:

car commuters want to force everyone in this city to fall in with the serious drawbacks of their chosen lifestyle.

In fairness, that isn't quite true. Alot of commuters have NO option but to use their car to get to work. The public transport isn't exactly world class in Dublin! Chosen lifestyle?? For most people it's a job that puts bread on the table and can't just tootle off to another job that mite be on their bus route.

ninja900 wrote:

Whatever you might think, or wish was the case, there is no automatic right to park your vehicle in any public place. Either park on private property or accept the restrictions, rules and regulations put in place by the public authorities to control and regulate the use of limited road space.

I agree. People should not EXPECT to be able to park outside their front door if it's a public road.

ninja900 wrote:

Car commuting is destroying this city and the quality of life for everyone who lives within it - including you - you just don't realise it yet.

Some would argue it already has...

Victor · 22-06-2006 8:26pm

cast_iron wrote:

In fairness, that isn't quite true. Alot of commuters have NO option but to use their car to get to work.

In fairness, that isn't quite true about people living in Rathmines.

14 | 14A | 15A | 15B | 15C | 15E | 15F | 15N | 18 | 49N | 65 | 65B | 65X | 83 |

Go To Ranelagh, Harold's Cross or Camden Street and you get lots more again.

Hotblack Desiato · 22-06-2006 10:03pm

cast_iron wrote:

Alot of commuters have NO option but to use their car to get to work.

No other option? For people within the city that's just not true. Depending on distance you have walking, cycling, motorcycling without even considering public transport.
Many people claim they must travel by car for their job, by which they mean they haven't figured out that they can keep a suit jacket and spare shirt hanging up in work and cycle...

The public transport isn't exactly world class in Dublin!

No? Really??? :eek:
It would be a damn sight better, without a single extra euro of public investment, if it were not for car gridlock. It's partially chicken-and-egg but there's also a huge laziness/selfishness factor too.
You can't really blame people when it costs so much to buy and insure a car but we have among the cheapest petrol in Europe, it makes the apparent cost of car commuting attractive - but not all costs are financial and not all are paid by the driver.

cast_iron · 23-06-2006 12:30am

Victor wrote:

In fairness, that isn't quite true about people living in Rathmines.

14 | 14A | 15A | 15B | 15C | 15E | 15F | 15N | 18 | 49N | 65 | 65B | 65X | 83 |

Go To Ranelagh, Harold's Cross or Camden Street and you get lots more again.

Granted, but in fairness, if you read both mine and ninja's post on that point, neither of us mentioned Rathmines ("this city" is what he said). It was a general point he made and i responded to.

In any case, just cos you live in Rathmines (central as it is) doesn't mean you work close by or in town or one of the above bus routes, or even close to a connecting bus route.

ninja900 wrote:

No other option? For people within the city that's just not true. Depending on distance you have walking, cycling, motorcycling without even considering public transport.
Many people claim they must travel by car for their job, by which they mean they haven't figured out that they can keep a suit jacket and spare shirt hanging up in work and cycle...

What i'm saying is not all jobs are quite that convenient - within cycle distance (in our weather!), with shower facilities (needed after a cycle). Nor is it easy! I cycle to work daily - half hour in morning, longer in evening (due to incline and a long hard day at work!)

ninja900 wrote:

No? Really???
It would be a damn sight better, without a single extra euro of public investment, if it were not for car gridlock. It's partially chicken-and-egg but there's also a huge laziness/selfishness factor too.
You can't really blame people when it costs so much to buy and insure a car but we have among the cheapest petrol in Europe, it makes the apparent cost of car commuting attractive - but not all costs are financial and not all are paid by the driver.

Well this is close to the heart of the matter. It's the way of the Irish really....we've done it for so long, so don't take to it too well now that we can't.

Just don't tar everyone with the same brush. And i couldn't be bothered reading back, but i still don't think the OP has said he owns a car.

a_ominous · 24-06-2006 9:05am

When I read Linoge's first post, I noticed that the stop was increased in size on the side with free spaces. Well the Corpo are hardly likely to remove _paying_ spaces are they??

H&#250 wrote: »

Wow OP, you live so near me. I agree that the bus stop is rather long to justify considering how only one route travels that road.

How does the frequency of the bus service relate to the length of the bus?

Linoge · 25-06-2006 4:23pm

a_ominous wrote:

When I read Linoge's first post, I noticed that the stop was increased in size on the side with free spaces. Well the Corpo are hardly likely to remove _paying_ spaces are they??

Alot of people are missing this point.

Ninja, there is a difference between being "entitled" and "expecting" a free parking space outside my front door. A free parking space is there and I'm as entitled as everyone else to use it. (Comparable to free education because it is available to everyone, so everyone is entitled to it).

With regards to Dublins transport system, I really don't think people realise how bad it is in comparison to other cities (maybe they are all driving cars so don't notice!). Paris, London, NY all have amazing metros. Granted they are major cities, but some more comparable cities by size and population, Oslo, Stockholm, Prague, all have metros.

The current public transport situation means that it may be possible to cut 1-2 hours per day off commuting times by using a car. You can hardly blame people who already work long and hard hours to want to get home to spend more time with their families at at the expense of "destroying the city". At the very least it would be quite difficult to translate your one car to adding to the gridlock.

Hotblack Desiato · 26-06-2006 2:42pm

Linoge wrote:

Ninja, there is a difference between being "entitled" and "expecting" a free parking space outside my front door. A free parking space is there and I'm as entitled as everyone else to use it.

Sure you are, and the council are also entitled to remove it to improve public transport provision.
Also it's Dublin City Council's policy to remove all free on-street parking within the canals, eventually this will work its way outwards too. This makes on-street parking available for people doing business in an area as opposed to having it all taken up by residents.
Eventually it will be like Tokyo, no private off-street parking = no car.

The current public transport situation means that it may be possible to cut 1-2 hours per day off commuting times by using a car.

Depends on the journey, that's certainly not true on radial routes, where I live the car is slower than the bus but still lots of people go by car... and public transport isn't the only alternative to cars, as I said earlier. Other European cities have a much higher proportion of cyclists and motorcyclists than we do, and it's not down to the weather, we have some sort of cultural blind spot against the users of 2-wheelers here.

At the very least it would be quite difficult to translate your one car to adding to the gridlock.

but every car does add to the gridlock. It is comical to hear car drivers giving out about the traffic with a complete lack of irony

especially when they have realistic alternatives but can't be ar*ed using them.

Linoge · 27-06-2006 10:35am

ninja900 wrote:

Sure you are, and the council are also entitled to remove it to improve public transport provision..

Which is even more to the point. The side with pay parking doesn't have these lines, and its literally the other side of the road! See the pics above.

ninja900 wrote:

Depends on the journey, that's certainly not true on radial routes, where I live the car is slower than the bus but still lots of people go by car... and public transport isn't the only alternative to cars, as I said earlier. ..

cast_iron wrote:

What i'm saying is not all jobs are quite that convenient - within cycle distance (in our weather!), with shower facilities (needed after a cycle). Nor is it easy! I cycle to work daily - half hour in morning, longer in evening (due to incline and a long hard day at work!)..

It does depend on the journey, so you are certainly admitting that it makes sense to own a car on some routes (I think that it is the vast majority of routes). That aside, how many times have buses passed you, not turned up, or been too full for you to get on? Can I also reitterate casts point above. Cycling does not suit everyone.

ninja900 wrote:

Other European cities have a much higher proportion of cyclists and motorcyclists than we do, and it's not down to the weather, we have some sort of cultural blind spot against the users of 2-wheelers here.

It is down to the weather! Do they all cycle in Glasgow or Oslo??!

ninja900 wrote:

but every car does add to the gridlock. It is comical to hear car drivers giving out about the traffic with a complete lack of irony especially when they have realistic alternatives but can't be ar*ed using them.

Realistic is a matter of opinion. Is it realistic to get up at 6am to make sure you get a parking spot at the train station or to get the only train that will get you in before 9 o'clock (that also gets you in before 8 o'clock), or to get the earlier bus because your bus is usually late or doesn't arrive.

My argument is not "lets all use cars", its that there really is no realistic alternative for alot of commuters. The whole city needed a Transport 21 X 5 about 20 years ago.

Individual commuters will not change their attitudes unless there is an incentive for them to. Longer commute times on dirty hot/cold buses, cycling with maniac drivers for an hour etc. and all for what, so it will be easier for other people who still use cars to get to work? It needs to be cost and time saving to use public transport. In Dublin it is not either.

MiniD · 27-06-2006 6:29pm

Linoge wrote:

Individual commuters will not change their attitudes unless there is an incentive for them to. Longer commute times on dirty hot/cold buses, cycling with maniac drivers for an hour etc. and all for what, so it will be easier for other people who still use cars to get to work? It needs to be cost and time saving to use public transport. In Dublin it is not either.

Recent reports have shown that infact people are making the switch to bus. Usually the incentive here is that the bus will have priority over the car, and for that to happen it means bus bays similar to the one outside your home have to be enforced. I suspect the reason the lines were painted here at the stop was because cars were parking at the bus stop, making it difficult for buses to pull in, causing delays to traffic on the road. It is very easy to throw up the argument of dirty hot/cold buses and compare that to the luxury of your own car, but the fact is that Dublin has one of the newest bus fleets in Europe, with an ever increasing fleet of low floor buses, needing access to the footpath for those with mobility issues. I would go further and point out that the some of the routes in Rathmines have the newest buses in the city at the moment, so the image of you having to sit on a freezing cold vehicle simply dosen't wash.

You throw statements around a little too loosely, on your point of not saving money by using buses, you might be surprised at how cheap it can be to use the bus. A bus journey from Rathmines to anywhere in Dublin City & County costs just €1.60 using a prepaid ticket, or if you avail of a tax-saver ticket, you could have a day's travel for the same price.

Again, I ask you Linoge. Were you aware when you moved into your flat that there was a bus stop outside your home? I'm presuming you were as it is quite obvious. If so, why are you so surprised that buses need to stop at a bus stop? Your point, while valid, about the stop opposite, bears no relevance to the fact that a bus is entitled to pull into the stop outside your home without obstruction. There may be a reason for the other side of the road having no markings, perhaps it is because of pay & display parking, maybe traffic flow is not as heavy on that particular part of the road or it could be any number of reasons.

shoegirl · 29-06-2006 11:32am

jman0 wrote:

Linoge if you're living in Rathmines why do you own a car?
In my opinion you are being part of the problem.
Maybe this new bus stop is part of the solution.

Thats a huge assumption to make. Proportionately very few people work in the city centre any more, even those living in Rathmines. Most people I know living in Rathmines either work locally or else in Sandyford, Clonskeagh or further afield. Dublin has become an "edge city". This is replicated all over Dublin, on all 3 sides of the city.

shoegirl · 29-06-2006 11:38am

MiniD wrote:

You throw statements around a little too loosely, on your point of not saving money by using buses, you might be surprised at how cheap it can be to use the bus. A bus journey from Rathmines to anywhere in Dublin City & County costs just €1.60 using a prepaid ticket, or if you avail of a tax-saver ticket, you could have a day's travel for the same price.

I agree that people should use the services, but the services in and around Dublin 6 pre-Luas were horrendous, and if traffic is anything like it was 5 years ago when I lived in the area, it impacts on buses as well as cars.

I originally moved to the area by the way, because I worked in Ranelagh. However I was laid off within 12 months and after applying for about 200 jobs got one in Bray and later, Cherrywood. (In fact of the 20-30 interviews I had at the time, only 2 jobs were located in the city centre and one of those was planning to relocate to Blanch). To get to the nearest bus stop was a 20 minute walk. To get to the DART was a 15 minute cycle, but then this meant changing to a bus at the other side. So my best option was - unfortunately, as I prefer to cycle/walk/public transport - to drive. Within 2 months of starting I had a car full of colleagues living around me grateful for a lift.

Please don't be so judgemental of those driving in Dublin as the transport system even now badly lets down those who work in the industrial and commercial sectors which are increasingly locating or relocating to the outer suburbs. There is nothing wrong with having a car per se, as long as you use alternatives as much as possible and avoid using unless you have to.

jman0 · 29-06-2006 11:48am

Well Shoegirl,
I don't know what u mean by "edge city".

I lived in Rathgar until recently and worked in the city centre, but also worked in Clonskeagh. I used to live in Terenure and worked in Clonskeagh.
While there i was also doing an evening course in Ballyfermot, and would cycle to and fro a couple times a week.
I found cycling the only way to go.
Much quicker than driving.
I suspect if Linoge really had no other option but to use a car, he'd have made that clear by now.
It seems incredible that someone would choose to live within the city paying high rents yet commuting outside the city to their jobs. Infact, that is just plain backwards.
A city is full of businesses, people work in businesses, residential areas get pushed further out.

shoegirl · 29-06-2006 11:50am

Linoge wrote:

Realistic is a matter of opinion. Is it realistic to get up at 6am to make sure you get a parking spot at the train station or to get the only train that will get you in before 9 o'clock (that also gets you in before 8 o'clock), or to get the earlier bus because your bus is usually late or doesn't arrive.

My argument is not "lets all use cars", its that there really is no realistic alternative for alot of commuters. The whole city needed a Transport 21 X 5 about 20 years ago.

Individual commuters will not change their attitudes unless there is an incentive for them to. Longer commute times on dirty hot/cold buses, cycling with maniac drivers for an hour etc. and all for what, so it will be easier for other people who still use cars to get to work? It needs to be cost and time saving to use public transport. In Dublin it is not either.

Its interesting by the way that we are discussing this area as the very useful local 13 service was butchered by CIE back in 1997 and again around 2000/2001. Originally it provided a service that took you from Beechwood Ave straight over to Ballymun via Glasnevin, however DB split the route in 2 around October 97 and made it two separate routes. Then they heavily cut back the route which by 2001 was down to only a handful of buses per day. This was all done when employment was dramatically growing and bus use should have been increasing with demand?

Similar things were done with the airport service in the early 90s (remember the 41A) and even my favourite route, the now demised 60 - incredibly, much of the route which the 60 covered was left with no service, yet is now being built around (I'm thinking of the area from Knocksedan Cross to the Rath and the back of the airport). The 41A was more or less merged with the 41 service, which badly damaged the already slow and congested 41 (which unsurprisingly resulted in a slump in passenger numbers).

What is needed in Dublin (and for that matter in other cities) is a Transport Authority that is accountable, is not living in the past, and is looking at the future needs and not just short term trends.

In 1997 it took me about 1.5-2 hours on average to bus it from Swords to the Sandford Rd. I bought a car the following year and this cut my commuting time in two. I went from spending 15-20 hours a week on a bus/at freezing bus stops to 7.5-10 hrs a week in a car. You cannot blame anybody for wanting to spend less time in a car. This was a part time job, by the way, so in my bussing days I almost spent as much time commuting as I did in the job!

shoegirl · 29-06-2006 11:58am

jman0 wrote:

Well Shoegirl,
I don't know what u mean by "edge city".

See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edge_city

jman0 wrote:

It seems incredible that someone would choose to live within the city paying high rents yet commuting outside the city to their jobs. Infact, that is just plain backwards.
A city is full of businesses, people work in businesses, residential areas get pushed further out.

First of all a lot of city centre businesses in Irish cities (and even large towns) are choosing to relocate to the suburbs because of high rents etc. (For example where I work in Cork city is rapidly being deserted by businesses relocating to developments in Mahon, Little Island and Ballingcollig - I notice two very large place gone in 6 months). Secondly a lot of people prefer to live in the city or close to the city to socialise, or because if they do change jobs they *should* find transport more accessible. However, this may not always be the case. A lot of people, by the way, moving to commuter counties, are familes or people who are originally from rural areas.

The other point I will make is that up to about 5-6 years ago the kind of single unit converted flats or small apartments that single people like to rent simply weren't available outside urban areas and traditional rental areas like Dublin 6. Its only in that time that we've started seeing 1 bed apartments in a large concentration in suburban towns.

jman0 · 29-06-2006 12:28pm

tbh i haven't given it much thought.
I read that bit about "Edge City" but i dispute it's relevance.
Sounds like a marketing phrase crafted by the author.
I reckon it's just normal urban sprawl.
I'm not actually convinced that city centre businesses are leaving the city to setup shop on the outskirts. Not that it doesn't happen to businesses (like Woodies DIY for example).
I think if that were the case, the logical consequence is that we'd see lower rents in the city centre. But we don't.
Maybe there are just certain types of industry (like manufacturing) that leave the city centre and maybe it's a good thing. Like businesses that invariably require several lorries to come and go everyday. They may find it better to setup someplace more handy.
If a business leaves the centre there are 10 more chomping at the bit to get in there.

Insofar as people choosing to live within the city yet commute outside, that is there prejogative alright. But they can hardly expect sympathy when the city erects some form of public transport on the public road outside their door.

Super Sized Bus Stop - Rathmines Rd Upper

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