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CE Stamping of Structural Steel

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2

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    #32
    Gryire
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭Gryire


    qcservices wrote: »
    Responsible Welding Co-ordinator (RWC) training is required to be completed for any company working to Execution Class 2
    Training Dates: 10th, 11th & 12th November
    Location : Athlone
    PM me for more details

    What does course cover?


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    #33
    Gryire
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭Gryire


    qcservices wrote: »
    The RWC covers a wide range of topics including:
    Metallurgy
    Welding Process Technology  (MAG, MMA, TIG & SAW)
    Welder Qualifications(WQ)
    Weld procedure qualification record (WPQR) & Weld procedure specifications (WPS)
    Overview of EN1090
    Overview of other relevant EN Standards
    Setting up a Welding Quality Management System (WQMS)
    The role of the Responsible Welding Coordinator (RWC)
    Weld Inspection Techniques (Visual, NDT & destructive testing)
    Welding Imperfections (Root causes, preventative measures & remedial actions)
    Welding Design & Welding Symbols

    Is the course accredited with the NSAI?


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    #34
    Gryire
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭Gryire


    qcservices wrote: »
    NSAI are in the process of approving the course content which is due to be completed in the next few days. It is already approved by SCCS & BMTrada so there will be no issues with NSAI approving it

    I have heard that an onsite assessment is also required. What is the full cost to get the RWC qualification


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    #35
    Gryire
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭Gryire


    qcservices wrote: »
    can you PM me your email address and I can send you on all the details


    Sorry, I don't give out my email address to sales people. Can you put the info on here!


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    #36
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    qcservices wrote: »
    can you PM me your email address and I can send you on all the details
    Gryire wrote: »
    Sorry, I don't give out my email address to sales people. Can you put the info on here!
    you don't have to give any details, just PM the poster and they can PM you ('private message' placed on Boards.ie)

    Both posters, please have a read of the forum charter & perhaps read around the forum.


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    #37
    Gryire
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭Gryire


    BryanF wrote: »
    you don't have to give any details, just PM the poster and they can PM you ('private message' placed on Boards.ie)

    Both posters, please have a read of the forum charter & perhaps read around the forum.

    No problem with that Bryan. Just poster was asking for email.


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    #38
    Damien01
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭Damien01


    Who are the relevant bodies that police the CE Certification Process


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    #39
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,995 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Damien01 wrote: »
    Who are the relevant bodies that police the CE Certification Process

    are you serious?? :) this is ireland.

    Enforcement varies according to the Directives. Some are enforced by local Trading Standards Departments, others by HSA and yet others by the Medical and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency and the Vehicle Certification Agency.

    Enforcement procedures/penalties: Except where safety is at risk, the relevant enforcement authority will usually provide you with an opportunity to ensure that your product is correctly CE-marked. If you fail to comply then you will be obliged to take your product off the market, and you may also be liable to a fine and/or imprisonment.

    from here


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    #40
    Gryire
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭Gryire


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    are you serious?? :) this is ireland.




    from here

    My understanding ins that the Building Control Officer (i.e. Local Authority) in each county is responsible. So policing is not likely to be enforced!


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    #41
    Damien01
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭Damien01


    It's a very difficult one I own a small fabrication company and simply cannot afford the €15k + cost in setting all this up. Does this mean however that no Engineers will be able to sign off on my work? If I don't have the money for the certification am I going to have to close up shop? These are real questions that I don't know how to answer at the minute. I've contacted the enterprise board hopefully they will be able to give me more information 2moro.


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    #42
    Gryire
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭Gryire


    Damien01 wrote: »
    It's a very difficult one I own a small fabrication company and simply cannot afford the €15k + cost in setting all this up. Does this mean however that no Engineers will be able to sign off on my work? If I don't have the money for the certification am I going to have to close up shop? These are real questions that I don't know how to answer at the minute. I've contacted the enterprise board hopefully they will be able to give me more information 2moro.

    What is the figure of €15k made up from?


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    #43
    Gryire
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭Gryire


    Does anybody have any experience of the various bodies doing the certification. Hearing lots of scare stories.


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    #44
    MJG1234
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭MJG1234


    qcservices wrote: »
    Responsible Welding Co-ordinator (RWC) training is required to be completed for any company working to Execution Class 2
    Training Dates: 10th, 11th & 12th November
    Location : Athlone
    PM me for more details

    Is there any more dates for this course


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    #45
    MJG1234
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭MJG1234


    qcservices wrote: »
    Yes. the next training dates are 9th, 10th & 11th December

    Is this the same course advertised on skillnets.ie for €1,700.


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    #46
    qcservices
    Registered Users Posts: 1 ✭qcservices


    yes, its the exact same course


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    #47
    Stollen
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭Stollen


    Hi Guys.

    I am looking for some guidance / comments on an unusual consumer issue that involves fabricated structural steel. I am assuming that the contributors on this thread are steel boffins!

    I have posted a thread on the consumer forum. I am looking for a steel fabricated garage from a steel garage / shed supplier. Its a box section welded steel garage that will be installed in my garden. 4m wide x 6m long and 2.9m to the apex. I want to put 15k of classic bikes in the garage and get them insured along with the structure value 9k. Don't need planning for the building!

    Insurance company says if the steel garage company does not have a number of CE certifications the building is illegal and any insurance would be null and void if a claim arose because the building was illegal. They also said that the steel garage contractors public liability insurance on site would also be null and void and I would be left exposed in case of an accident and a possible prosecution by the HSA if someone was injured. Scary stuff for a domestic consumer purchase.

    Do the sellers of steel garages require these CE certifications by law. I would appreciate comments. Cannot get a straight answer from a number of steel garage suppliers.


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    #48
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,995 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    yes, unless they can show they are not covered by harmonised european product standards (hens), which id say they are.

    http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,30649,en.pdf


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    #49
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    Johnnyhpipe wrote: »
    I'm told that less than 5 steel fabricators in Ireland are geared up for it... .

    I'm hearing anecdotal evidence, that the cost of steel particularly for small projects/additional site requirements, has become astronomical due to the lack of small suppliers/manufacturers not being able to afford ce requirements


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    #50
    Gryire
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭Gryire


    BryanF wrote: »
    I'm hearing anecdotal evidence, that the cost of steel particularly for small projects/additional site requirements, has become astronomical due to the lack of small suppliers/manufacturers not being able to afford ce requirements

    There are about 30+ fabricators already CE marking their steel.


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    #51
    Drift
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭Drift


    It has definitely increased the steel costs on some of our projects of late 2014 / early 2015 but from what I'm seeing (albeit totally anecdotally) it seems a trickle down is beginning to occur. Medium sized fabricators appear to have or be in the process of obtaining the certification and small suppliers have at least heard of it now!!!

    We'll get there eventually - but it's the typical Irish system of things happening in the years AFTER supposed mandatory implementation and it's left to the poor conscientious specifier to police the whole thing whilst being bitched at by the client for the project costs going up and the fabricator for what they see as "paperwork" getting in the way of their real job.


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    #52
    Drift
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭Drift


    Gryire wrote: »
    There are about 30+ fabricators already CE marking their steel.

    Is there a list available anywhere?

    I'm talking about a specific list of Irish fabricators who can supply CE marking with their fabrications (and additionally execution class restrictions on those suppliers if necessary.)


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    #53
    Gryire
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭Gryire


    Drift wrote: »
    Is there a list available anywhere?

    I'm talking about a specific list of Irish fabricators who can supply CE marking with their fabrications (and additionally execution class restrictions on those suppliers if necessary.)

    There is no list as each notified body mantain their own list.

    Most of the Irish Fabricatiors who are certified are either with SCCS or NSAI.

    www.nsai.ie/Our-Services/Certification/Company-Registration-Search.aspx

    www.steelconstruction.org/directories/steel-construction-certification-scheme-sccs.html


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    #54
    Gryire
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭Gryire


    Drift wrote: »
    It has definitely increased the steel costs on some of our projects of late 2014 / early 2015 but from what I'm seeing (albeit totally anecdotally) it seems a trickle down is beginning to occur. Medium sized fabricators appear to have or be in the process of obtaining the certification and small suppliers have at least heard of it now!!!

    We'll get there eventually - but it's the typical Irish system of things happening in the years AFTER supposed mandatory implementation and it's left to the poor conscientious specifier to police the whole thing whilst being bitched at by the client for the project costs going up and the fabricator for what they see as "paperwork" getting in the way of their real job.

    It was 'always' the job of the specifier to police compliance with the specification. No police = No compliance!


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    #55
    Drift
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭Drift


    Gryire wrote: »
    It was 'always' the job of the specifier to police compliance with the specification. No police = No compliance!

    I couldn't disagree more. If a supplier is producing something for sale or supply in the Irish market the onus is on him to make sure it complies with the laws of the land. NOT the end user or the specifier. If you were buying or ordering a new car tomorrow would you expect to have to take apart the steering wheel to make sure the airbags are assembled correctly? Or would you hope/expect the car manufacturer to comply with their legal obligations?

    No Police = No Compliance is a tremenduous problem with our culture. The idea that if there's no-one there to check that I'm doing the safe/correct thing then I won't bother. I'll just do it the quick, wrong way to save myself the hassle. If I took that approach at my job I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror!

    I have no problem specifying the use of CE Marked Steel on my specifications but even if I didn't a fabricator should not legally supply me with steelwork that is not CE marked because that would be illegal.


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    #56
    Gryire
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭Gryire


    Drift wrote: »
    I couldn't disagree more. If a supplier is producing something for sale or supply in the Irish market the onus is on him to make sure it complies with the laws of the land. NOT the end user or the specifier. If you were buying or ordering a new car tomorrow would you expect to have to take apart the steering wheel to make sure the airbags are assembled correctly? Or would you hope/expect the car manufacturer to comply with their legal obligations?

    No Police = No Compliance is a tremenduous problem with our culture. The idea that if there's no-one there to check that I'm doing the safe/correct thing then I won't bother. I'll just do it the quick, wrong way to save myself the hassle. If I took that approach at my job I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror!

    I have no problem specifying the use of CE Marked Steel on my specifications but even if I didn't a fabricator should not legally supply me with steelwork that is not CE marked because that would be illegal.

    If you are buying a new car you are the client. The car designer is responsible for ensuring that the car is manufactured in accordance with the designers specification.

    There is a lot more to a specification than just asking for CE marked steel. If that is all that is in your specification than it not worth the paper it is written on, and a lot of specifications are in this category.


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    #57
    Drift
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭Drift


    I don't design the smelting process, or the rolling/extruding process for the steel either. And yet when I specify a 203 x 203 UC46 in S275 I expect to get it! ... Along with appropriate documentation to prove its provenance! Anyway - you can rest assured that my specification is worth a lot more than the paper it's written on.

    I don't like the idea of fabricators trying to abdicate themselves from their responsibilities. Like it or not the law says you can't sell non CE marked steel for specific uses and no amount of blaming the specification will get you out of it!


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    #58
    Gryire
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭Gryire


    Drift wrote: »
    I don't design the smelting process, or the rolling/extruding process for the steel either. And yet when I specify a 203 x 203 UC46 in S275 I expect to get it! ... Along with appropriate documentation to prove its provenance! Anyway - you can rest assured that my specification is worth a lot more than the paper it's written on.

    I don't like the idea of fabricators trying to abdicate themselves from their responsibilities. Like it or not the law says you can't sell non CE marked steel for specific uses and no amount of blaming the specification will get you out of it!

    What steel subgrade do you require.
    What size weld do you need.
    What level of inspection do you require.
    How do you want weld procedures to be qualified.
    What type of quality plan do you require.
    Etc.


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    #59
    Drift
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭Drift


    Why would you think I wouldn't specify this and more?!

    And on top of all of that I still require CE Certification! And it's still not my job to police compliance with the hENs!


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    #60
    Gryire
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭Gryire


    Drift wrote: »
    Why would you think I wouldn't specify this and more?!

    And on top of all of that I still require CE Certification! And it's still not my job to police compliance with the hENs!

    I read specifications on a daily basis and the vast majority do not include this info.
    No one said it is your job to police compliance with the hENs.
    I said it is your job to ensure compliance with your specification. This does happen but only with certain engineering consultants.


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    #61
    Drift
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭Drift


    Apologies - I took this to mean that you (as a fabricator I'm assuming) thought that it was my job as a designer/specifier to go around the country telling fabricators all about the hENs when they should know as much if not more about them than me.
    Gryire wrote: »
    It was 'always' the job of the specifier to police compliance with the specification.


    I spend a disproportionate amount of time checking for compliance with my specifications. The smaller the project the harder it gets. I find on the big projects, big contractors and big fabricators are used and most of them are reasonably well up to speed.

    On smaller projects (where understandably it is difficult to afford big fabricator and contractor rates) it can be excruciatingly difficult getting the simplest information across or back. It's incredibly frustrating when sometimes the letters C and E are news to the fabricator and contractor.

    I realise that checking compliance with my specification includes checking that legal requirements are met but this should be a small simple part of the process because I hope that anyone working in the field is competent enough to obey the law. Then I should be able to quickly move on to the nitty gritty of my exact requirements and explain where necessary why I need certain things. With competent suppliers this process is a dialogue - with less competent ones it's policing!


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