1,769 MW wind generation at 18:30 today

Impetus · 17-12-2013 9:23pm #1

Ireland generated 1,769 MW of power at 18:30, reaching an all-time record this evening. This brought co2 / kWh down to just over 300g, at peak time - (typically this is about 400g at this time of day).

http://www.eirgrid.com/operations/systemperformancedata/windgeneration/

TOMP · 17-12-2013 9:38pm

Good for the environment but unfortunately lots of power generated by wind will not result in lower electricity prices for the general public

Capt'n Midnight · 17-12-2013 10:45pm

http://www.sem-o.com/

Blue line shows price

This shows how pumped storage should work , buy electricity at night, there is some wastage so you can only sell 75% of it back, but during the day you get five times the price.

Renewables just remove the peak price which has a knock on effect , it nothing else it means less fossil fuel imports. Also note the higher demand too.

Here you might still be able to sell back 75% of the electricity you bought during the night but the margins are a lot smaller and you've loans to pay off because energy storage is capital intensive.

[edit] hmm, it was windy on the 13th too , but the point is still the same peaking plants can't hold the grid to ransom every day.

Impetus · 18-12-2013 9:28am

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

http://www.sem-o.com/

Blue line shows price

This shows how pumped storage should work , buy electricity at night, there is some wastage so you can only sell 75% of it back, but during the day you get five times the price.

Given the huge surge in market price of power at peak times, if you can store power, and sell it into the grid at prime demand time, the investor can get six times as much per kWh (compared with selling the stuff as it is generated). [I'm not suggesting Enronization! - which was deliberate manipulation of the market].

fclauson · 18-12-2013 11:34am

Now this is where Smart Meters will come in to play - if you can shift that 6pm spike then the whole system becomes more functional

One idea I was speaking about recently is using rechargeable cars to smooth that spike

imagine this
a) you have a smart meter
b) you have a rechargeable car
c) you provider spikes the power price at say 5:30pm -> 7:30pm

rather than using grid power at that time 'cuse its expensive you drain the power from your car battery back into your house via an inverter

you then refill the car later in the night

Now that is Smart

Capt'n Midnight · 18-12-2013 6:36pm

Impetus wrote: »

Given the huge surge in market price of power at peak times, if you can store power, and sell it into the grid at prime demand time, the investor can get six times as much per kWh (compared with selling the stuff as it is generated). [I'm not suggesting Enronization! - which was deliberate manipulation of the market].

now look at the other graph - it's what happens when renewables kick in

it says you can sell power for just twice the price you bought it at.
but you only get 150% of what you paid because you loose 1/4 of the power through conversions

suddenly a 500% gross profit becomes just 50%. to give you an idea of the capital costs involved, it's been 45 years since anyone started building energy storage here and it's still just Turlough Hill. and it's only in the last few years that wind has eroded the peak price so for 40 years that "six times" just hasn't interested more investors.

tl;dr if pumped storage wasn't economically attractive before wind it's less attractive now

Greensleeves · 19-12-2013 10:34am

I just looked at the Eirgrid page and I see that wind generation dropped steadily in the last 24hrs to just 600MW. Is this because some of the turbines would have been shut down due to the high winds?

Capt'n Midnight · 19-12-2013 11:32am

Greensleeves wrote: »

I just looked at the Eirgrid page and I see that wind generation dropped steadily in the last 24hrs to just 600MW. Is this because some of the turbines would have been shut down due to the high winds?

there's no wind in the eye of a storm

http://www.eirgrid.com/operations/systemperformancedata/systemdemand/
demand last night dropped to 2.4GW
stability rules limit Wind + Interconnectors to 50% so only 1.2GW wind usable

not sure how Turlough in pump mode affects grid stability re the 50% rule

Impetus · 20-12-2013 9:56pm

The real wind generation capability of IRL is enormous, and its market is limited only by interconnection/storage capacity and demand at the other end of the interconnector line. Interconnectors can be paid for by both incoming and outgoing traffic. (Incentivise energy intensive industries to IRL to use wind energy when wind is present, and keep international interconnectors busy at other times).

Iceland has a huge (for its size) electricity consuming market. Almost 100% of the heating and rail traction in Norway is electric. I have seen a chart showing Irish and Danish wind energy production, and they are almost a mirror image of each other - when it is windy in IRL it is calm in DK and vice versa. Viewing it from a Europe-wide grid basis, taking into account multiple types of renewable energy sources, I suspect that there is a very high overall availability of renewable energy, continent-wide. The Côte d’Azur runs 100% from renewable energy generated from about 25 hydro power stations in the French Alps, as well as a domestic waste incinerators in Monaco, Nice and Marseille.

Monaco’s incinerator system : http://www.sma.mc/images/lightbox/schema-usine.jpg The Energy is delivered by pipe in the form of hot and cold water to homes and businesses where it is used for heating and air conditioning using heat exchangers as well a providing hot water. The rest is used to generate electricity. Monaco has the lowest CO2 pollution of any country in the world, per capita. The country has one of the longest life expectancies in the world, despite the fact that the entire population lives within a few km of the incinerator. The country’s electric power comes from both waste to energy and hydro. Incineration has been in use in MC since the 1850s, and it was the first country to use the incineration for energy.

One can’t look at Ireland’s wind energy resources in isolation. It will have to be considered as part of a mélange with the rest of the European energy market, because Ireland’s wind (and wave) energy potential is so massive relative to the small size of the domestic energy market. And the capital requirements are potentially so huge as a result. As the efficiency and price per kWh of PV cells improves, these too will be viable in cloudy Ireland on a large scale. This idea does not just apply to Europe - the Maghreb has a huge solar energy platform which can be harnessed to export electricity to the European grid. A resource that will keep producing long after the last oil well “runs dry”.

Capt'n Midnight · 20-12-2013 10:13pm

BTW
The annual changes in our wave energy mirror those of solar.

fclauson · 21-12-2013 10:03pm

Impetus wrote: »

...

Monaco’s incinerator system : http://www.sma.mc/images/lightbox/schema-usine.jpg The Energy is delivered by pipe in the form of hot and cold water to homes and businesses where it is used for heating and air conditioning using heat exchangers as well a providing hot water. The rest is used to generate electricity. Monaco has the lowest CO2 pollution of any country in the world, per capita. The country has one of the longest life expectancies in the world, despite the fact that the entire population lives within a few km of the incinerator. The country’s electric power comes from both waste to energy and hydro. Incineration has been in use in MC since the 1850s, and it was the first country to use the incineration for energy.

Statistics can tell you anything you want to find - Monaco is very small hence there is practically no car traffic and its density is very high (and rich)

Its life longevity could be down to its wealth - its the only pace I have come across where there are defribulators strapped to the lampposts at regular intervals :rolleyes:

if you look at
http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/emis/top2010.cap
you would think for example the Faukland residents are the bad boys being 11th with China being 66th
but then you look at
http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/emis/top2010.tot
and its china is 1st with the Falkland's isles being almost last

If we look at Ireland - its 68 in ranking by volume but 40th by Capita

we produce just under 0.1% of the worlds CO2

Then there is another factor - the REFIT price (http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Energy/Sustainable+and+Renewable+Energy+Division/REFIT.htm)
Wind gets paid at 6.9 per unit (2013 price)
but look at
http://www.sem-o.com/Pages/MDB_SMP_WD1_EUR.aspx

the typical average is 3c to 4c per unit which means that while all this Wind energy may be very green its not "free" it costs a significant amount (e.g. about 100% more than the average)

that's probably why http://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-electricity-prices-eu-average-926849-May2013/

Capt'n Midnight · 22-12-2013 2:38am

fclauson wrote: »

Then there is another factor - the REFIT price (http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Energy/Sustainable+and+Renewable+Energy+Division/REFIT.htm)
Wind gets paid at 6.9 per unit (2013 price)
but look at
http://www.sem-o.com/Pages/MDB_SMP_WD1_EUR.aspx

the typical average is 3c to 4c per unit which means that while all this Wind energy may be very green its not "free" it costs a significant amount (e.g. about 100% more than the average)

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Energy/Sustainable+and+Renewable+Energy+Division/REFIT.htm

There is 1380MW of REFIT renewable generation capacity supported in the 2012/2013 PSO decision: 55MW of REFIT 2 projects, 2MW of REFIT 3 projects, with the remainder in REFIT 1.

REFIT doesn't cover all wind , so that's nearly 400MW of wind energy at market rate ?

Thing is that while the average is 3c to 4c (more like 4c to 6c ) the peak can be a lot more, but that depends on market conditions. Wind means more suppliers, means the grid isn't as dependent on peaking plants as often.

compare

http://www.sem-o.com/Pages/default.aspx

also 6.9c per unit doesn't sound bad when UK nuclear will cost 9.25p
and since REFIT is only for 15 years so some of the generators will be out of the scheme by the time the new UK nuclear plant is due to be finished.

fclauson · 22-12-2013 9:08am

more numbers to chew on
page 18
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/223940/DECC_Electricity_Generation_Costs_for_publication_-_24_07_13.pdf

what's interesting is gas is still a lot cheaper than all the others including wind - and with the dreaded fracking - gas resources could last a long time into the future combined with for example the price in the US dropping from $12 /MBTU to 3 then long term gas will be very much the cheapest

I guess its all about balance - with a lot of gas found under Ireland would we be better positioned to frack than grow turbines
choices choices

fclauson · 22-12-2013 9:13am

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

...
also 6.9c per unit doesn't sound bad when UK nuclear will cost 9.25p
and since REFIT is only for 15 years so some of the generators will be out of the scheme by the time the new UK nuclear plant is due to be finished.

and how will all the PV fair in all this in Germany the government promised 40 something C/unit to all that installed PV for a 25 year contract - so did the UK

Capt'n Midnight · 22-12-2013 2:36pm

fclauson wrote: »

I guess its all about balance - with a lot of gas found under Ireland would we be better positioned to frack than grow turbines
choices choices

It all depends on how much gas there is, the UK could only get the equivalent of 5 years gas from fracking. And they've got a lot more coal fields than we do.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25420552

More than half of the UK could be suitable for shale gas fracking, according to a government-commissioned report.
...
Under the most optimistic scenario, domestic shale gas production could total 4.32-to-8.64 trillion cubic feet of gas throughout the lifetime of a well - around 20 years.

That is enough to fulfil a quarter of the UK’s annual demand

Gas is expensive to liquefy and transport so AFAIK they haven't started exporting it on a big scale yet, the price of gas may drop a bit then, but not by huge amounts.

And the Japanese have figured out how to tap into methane hydrates. Gas is interesting because methane is far worse than carbon dioxide for global warming, so harvesting the stuff in permafrost or bottom of frozen lakes may even cause less damage than using the stuff.

I've said it before though, using excess wind power to produce hydrogen to inject into the gas mains might be one way to allow more wind power. It's not as efficient as pumped storage, but it's low hanging fruit as the capital costs are low and the distribution and storage network is already there.

Impetus · 22-12-2013 9:18pm

Fracking delivers a short-term "spoon of sugar" into the energy supply chain. Probably leaving long-term damage to the ground water etc. Not unlike the "Celtic Tiger" era in IRL, where uncontrolled amounts of economic fuel from almost unlimited quantities of cheap debt, from one of the largest currencies in the world created a balloon economy, leaving large amounts of debt and boarded up "capital investments" all over the place.

The real question is what next after frack hydro carbons (and regular hydro carbons) become extremely expensive due to lack of supply? The management of the transition from carbon to renewable will be a key component in the economic success of a nation. Both in terms of being at the core of the renewable energy technology industries, and having reliable price competitive energy supplies for business and residential customers.

It will happen a lot faster than people think, especially with large population Asian economies becoming more and more dependent on the stuff. The nuclear event in Japan (Fukushima) has turned Japan into the largest LNG importer in the world, and has given the country a balance of payments deficit as a result. Inter-bank interest rates in the second largest economy in the world (China) (using the Anglo-Saxon propagandistic view that the EU is not an economy) doubled this week due to liquidity shortages in the financial markets for the CNY). And the same or worse could happen over a short period to global oil and gas prices. The potential cost of these risks being ignored by a country are great. Which is why I say that IRL should be engaging with the rest of the EU to help design and fund energy network connections/storage and renewable generation facilities, time being of the essence...

Capt'n Midnight · 22-12-2013 9:59pm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/03/12/japan-tries-to-unlock-the-worlds-biggest-source-of-carbon-based-fuel/

Distribution of organic carbon in Earth (excluding dispersed carbon in rocks and sediments, which equals nearly 1,000 times this total amount). Numbers in gigatons (1015 tons) of carbon.

Yes natural gas releases less CO2 than other fossil fuels but at present processing it means methane is released and so it's global warming effect might not be less than other fuels

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130408084900.htm
it may be possible to split the hydrogen from methane to get a low carbon fuel by bubbling it though 1000c molten metal
-
[edit]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kværner-process another way to do it - note in principle the heat energy could be provided by renewables since gas is storable for short terms. And given the energy return on energy invested I'm surprised that more renewables aren't used in fossil fuel extraction.

the thing is you need to mix and match energy sources, but transporting electricity over long distances has never been cheaper. At present a cable to Iceland wouldn't be as cost effective as their current role of producing aluminium with their electricity. But that may change in future.

And again to remind everyone that wind is predictable several days out so you can plan / price around it.

Impetus · 22-12-2013 10:21pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

And again to remind everyone that wind is predictable several days out so you can plan / price around it.

Five days predictability using the HIRLAM model, and even longer and more precise predictions are available using the new AROME forecasting model, currently only in use in Norway and France.

http://www.eirgrid.com/operations/systemperformancedata/windgeneration/

Meanwhile nuclear power plants can go offline in 500 ms - in a small country one nuclear plant can represent 30 to 50% of electricity demand.

ted1 · 24-12-2013 10:10am

fclauson wrote: »

Now this is where Smart Meters will come in to play - if you can shift that 6pm spike then the whole system becomes more functional

One idea I was speaking about recently is using rechargeable cars to smooth that spike

imagine this
a) you have a smart meter
b) you have a rechargeable car
c) you provider spikes the power price at say 5:30pm -> 7:30pm

rather than using grid power at that time 'cuse its expensive you drain the power from your car battery back into your house via an inverter

you then refill the car later in the night

Now that is Smart

I'm currently doing a thesis on smart grid controlled domestic appliances.
It gives the grid the power to switch on and off thermal loads like fridge freezers. Approx 58mW out there. Switching off for 30 mins won't have to much if an affect on the temperature but should help remove peak loads.

Then looking at storage heaters and the grids ability to dump cheap elec into them on an ongoing 24 hour basis, so whenever the wind blows.

Finally looking at dish washers, washing machines etc. when you turn them on they sit there the grid signals them to come on thus again removing peak and maximising the use of renewable

P.s what happens when you have to pop out to the shop at 7 and you run out of juice half way there ?

Capt'n Midnight · 24-12-2013 12:27pm

ted1 wrote: »

Approx 58mW out there.

58 milliwatts ?

Better insulation means buildings can be pre-heated earlier.

What would also be nice is a smart storage heater. That takes decides how much heat to store based on weather forecast for temperature, wind and rain , and the owners occupancy. But will be a complete failure if like existing storage heaters the user interface isn't intuitive enough to use easily.

Yes in theory storage heaters save money. In practice they aren't used properly by most people.

fclauson · 24-12-2013 12:55pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

....
What would also be nice is a smart storage heater. That takes decides how much heat to store based on weather forecast for temperature, wind and rain , and the owners occupancy. But will be a complete failure if like existing storage heaters the user interface isn't intuitive enough to use easily.

...

That's the exact challenge I have in my Passive House - I want to use the heatpump to "pre-load" the floor with just enough heat - but doing the prediction for this is not hard but not easy to instrument or implement

ted1 · 24-12-2013 1:06pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

58 milliwatts ?

Better insulation means buildings can be pre-heated earlier.

What would also be nice is a smart storage heater. That takes decides how much heat to store based on weather forecast for temperature, wind and rain , and the owners occupancy. But will be a complete failure if like existing storage heaters the user interface isn't intuitive enough to use easily.

Yes in theory storage heaters save money. In practice they aren't used properly by most people.

Haha yes MW megawatts silly phone changing text.

With regards people not known how to work storage heaters. Grid controlled ones should be more automated in that you set a temperature and the times you want it at the temperature. The heater will do the rest, as there will be no such night rate as the time will vary at 2pm there could be excess capacity.

I work for a company who specialise in Energy management systems or current version has multi linear regression analysis so we can predict future building needs and optimise their usage

ted1 · 24-12-2013 1:06pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

58 milliwatts ?

Better insulation means buildings can be pre-heated earlier.

What would also be nice is a smart storage heater. That takes decides how much heat to store based on weather forecast for temperature, wind and rain , and the owners occupancy. But will be a complete failure if like existing storage heaters the user interface isn't intuitive enough to use easily.

Yes in theory storage heaters save money. In practice they aren't used properly by most people.

Haha yes MW megawatts silly phone changing text.

With regards people not known how to work storage heaters. Grid controlled ones should be more automated in that you set a temperature and the times you want it at the temperature. The heater will do the rest, as there will be no such night rate as the time will vary at 2pm there could be excess capacity.

I work for a company who specialise in Energy management systems or current version has multi linear regression analysis so we can predict future building needs and optimise their usage

Impetus · 24-12-2013 3:36pm

Storage heaters are energy wasteful fossils dating from an era of cheap electricity. They provide little or no control over the heat they deliver, and are thermally inefficient.

It would be better to store excess production of power in pumped storage, or electric car batteries etc.

I have Daikin Ururu Sarara heat pumps that are about 5x efficient – ie 700 W of electricity produces 3.5 kW of heat or chilling. They also bring in and process fresh air (reducing its humidity to 50% (or as set), and remove airborne pollutants. The living space is divided into insulated modules – so if there is nobody using a space (eg bedrooms during the daytime) it is left to itself. The heat pump will warm a bedroom from 10 C to 25C while one is brushing one’s teeth. This saves a lot of fuel, because one can leave a room cold until it is needed, heat it quickly, and switch the heat off when done. It has a night cycle to save energy while managing humidity and air cleanliness during the night and it increases the temperature about an hour before waking. It uses about 1kWh of power for the entire night, keeping the bedroom from getting too hot or cold.

High humidity levels increase how cold it feels. The Daikin units are far better than a de-humidifier at drying the air – eg when it is 100% humidity outside, I can get a room’s humidity down to 65%, 50%, 30% or 25% - whatever I set. This greatly reduces the need for heat. Ditto in hot climates – get the humidity down, and you will need less air conditioning.

While Daikin (based in Japan) is at the top end of the air conditioner market in the world, the people in their Dublin office are “ejits”, to be blunt about it. So basically one needs a good installer who knows the product.

The outside unit makes about the same noise as a fridge (40 dB), and inside at night in the bedroom the noise is barely audible – about 25 dB. Unlike most other heat pumps, there is no hose embedded in the garden – just a compressor box on the back wall.
Daikin also have kit to heat water from a heat pump for washing, underfloor heating and even radiators – but this system does not appear to be compatible with the Ururu Sarara air management system.

Obviously one could use off-peak electricity with heat pumps at night to heat water for the next day and bring the living area of the house from 10C to say 23C before people get up (which might take 10 to mins at full blast). It is much faster at getting the heat to the required temperature than a conventional central heating system.

They work in really cold climates – eg I have been in several houses in Switzerland using them in winter.

http://www.daikin.com/global_ac/products/residential/urusara_series/documents/function_u.pdf

Some units now use R.32 refrigerant, and deliver A+++ energy efficiency. Others are A++.

The information on their incompetently managed Irish website is out of date, but here is a link to it for completeness.

http://www.daikin.ie/for-your-home/needs/ventilation-and-air-purification/ventilation/

Capt'n Midnight · 24-12-2013 4:53pm

Impetus wrote: »

Storage heaters are energy wasteful fossils dating from an era of cheap electricity. They provide little or no control over the heat they deliver, and are thermally inefficient.

It would be better to store excess production of power in pumped storage, or electric car batteries etc.

car batteries ??

check the efficiency, energy density , cost and number of charges over the lifetime

there is a reason why over 99% of stored electicity is pumped storage and most of the rest is compress air storage , all the batteries lithium / sodium-sulfur / lead acid don't add up to much more than trials or off grid usage.

pumped storage is dead in the water. capital costs are daft compared to providing excess renewables. By all means use the existing systems, but for the short term it's probably cheaper to invest in Norweigan hydro and interconnectors than try to build it here.

Ocean schemes for pumped storage may work because of the surface areas and economies of scale - perhaps they could integrate with tidal to give a little extra

Impetus · 24-12-2013 5:03pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

car batteries ??

check the efficiency, energy density , cost and number of charges over the lifetime

there is a reason why over 99% of stored electicity is pumped storage and most of the rest is compress air storage , all the batteries lithium / sodium-sulfur / lead acid don't add up to much more than trials or off grid usage.

pumped storage is dead in the water. capital costs are daft compared to providing excess renewables. By all means use the existing systems, but for the short term it's probably cheaper to invest in Norweigan hydro and interconnectors than try to build it here.

Ocean schemes for pumped storage may work because of the surface areas and economies of scale - perhaps they could integrate with tidal to give a little extra

You have the option of just charging your car at night, or if "battery" technologies allow (eg capacitors?) use a country's electric car fleet as "pumped storage" equivalent.

Snow has a massive store of water in the Alps, Pyrenees etc - slowly releasing the water into the rivers during the summer when there is less / no rain. There may be room for snow in pumped energy storage - ie it can stack water, without the need for huge lakes.

As you say countries like Norway have huge pumped storage potential.

What I am saying is that whatever form it takes, it provides a more flexible solution than storage heating.

ted1 · 24-12-2013 5:07pm

Impetus wrote: »

Storage heaters are energy wasteful fossils dating from an era of cheap electricity. They provide little or no control over the heat they deliver, and are thermally inefficient.

It would be better to store excess production of power in pumped storage, or electric car batteries etc.

I have Daikin Ururu Sarara heat pumps that are about 5x efficient – ie 700 W of electricity produces 3.5 kW of heat or chilling. They also bring in and process fresh air (reducing its humidity to 50% (or as set), and remove airborne pollutants. The living space is divided into insulated modules – so if there is nobody using a space (eg bedrooms during the daytime) it is left to itself. The heat pump will warm a bedroom from 10 C to 25C while one is brushing one’s teeth. This saves a lot of fuel, because one can leave a room cold until it is needed, heat it quickly, and switch the heat off when done. It has a night cycle to save energy while managing humidity and air cleanliness during the night and it increases the temperature about an hour before waking. It uses about 1kWh of power for the entire night, keeping the bedroom from getting too hot or cold.

High humidity levels increase how cold it feels. The Daikin units are far better than a de-humidifier at drying the air – eg when it is 100% humidity outside, I can get a room’s humidity down to 65%, 50%, 30% or 25% - whatever I set. This greatly reduces the need for heat. Ditto in hot climates – get the humidity down, and you will need less air conditioning.

While Daikin (based in Japan) is at the top end of the air conditioner market in the world, the people in their Dublin office are “ejits”, to be blunt about it. So basically one needs a good installer who knows the product.

The outside unit makes about the same noise as a fridge (40 dB), and inside at night in the bedroom the noise is barely audible – about 25 dB. Unlike most other heat pumps, there is no hose embedded in the garden – just a compressor box on the back wall.
Daikin also have kit to heat water from a heat pump for washing, underfloor heating and even radiators – but this system does not appear to be compatible with the Ururu Sarara air management system.

Obviously one could use off-peak electricity with heat pumps at night to heat water for the next day and bring the living area of the house from 10C to say 23C before people get up (which might take 10 to mins at full blast). It is much faster at getting the heat to the required temperature than a conventional central heating system.

They work in really cold climates – eg I have been in several houses in Switzerland using them in winter.

http://www.daikin.com/global_ac/products/residential/urusara_series/documents/function_u.pdf

Some units now use R.32 refrigerant, and deliver A+++ energy efficiency. Others are A++.

The information on their incompetently managed Irish website is out of date, but here is a link to it for completeness.

http://www.daikin.ie/for-your-home/needs/ventilation-and-air-purification/ventilation/

How easy do you think it is to retrofit a heat pump system to the current stock of houses and apartments?

Modern storage heaters and the next generation are much better. The dimplex quantum is a good example

Impetus · 24-12-2013 5:15pm

ted1 wrote: »

How easy do you think it is to retrofit a heat pump system to the current stick of houses and apartments?

Modern storage heaters and the next generation are much better. The dimplex quantum is a good example

I have installed heat pumps in a 200 year old house - it takes a day or two per room. With apartments the issue might be where do you position the outdoor unit? On the roof? Do you have rights to the roof and there are four pipes between the outdoor and indoor unit in the Daikin system. Of course if you have a penthouse or large balcony, this will probably be less of an issue. The Ururu Sarara units I have have a 10m pipe length limit between indoor and outdoor units.

The problem with storage heaters (new or old) is you are just burning energy to create heat. With the heat exchanger you are using energy to take the heat out of the air and transport it inside (or the reverse in summer).

fclauson · 24-12-2013 5:25pm

Impetus wrote: »

....The living space is divided into insulated modules – so if there is nobody using a space (eg bedrooms during the daytime) it is left to itself. The heat pump will warm a bedroom from 10 C to 25C while one is brushing one’s teeth....

Impetus

how well insulated are you "modules" - what your describe above would seem to run the risk of condensation issues if in reality you let a room drop to 10C

ted1 · 24-12-2013 5:33pm

Impetus wrote: »

I have installed heat pumps in a 200 year old house - it takes a day or two per room. With apartments the issue might be where do you position the outdoor unit? On the roof? Do you have rights to the roof and there are four pipes between the outdoor and indoor unit in the Daikin system. Of course if you have a penthouse or large balcony, this will probably be less of an issue. The Ururu Sarara units I have have a 10m pipe length limit between indoor and outdoor units.

The problem with storage heaters (new or old) is you are just burning energy to create heat. With the heat exchanger you are using energy to take the heat out of the air and transport it inside (or the reverse in summer).

So basically a heat pump is not a practical alternative for the majority of houses or apartments.

Impetus · 24-12-2013 5:39pm

fclauson wrote: »

Impetus

how well insulated are you "modules" - what your describe above would seem to run the risk of condensation issues if in reality you let a room drop to 10C

They are insulated to prevent heat movement within the house. There is an outer layer of heavy insulation to keep the heat within the building. This is not just a heat pump issue. With central heating if you keep an entire house heated all day, you are wasting energy. Empty bedrooms etc.

ted1 · 24-12-2013 5:41pm

Impetus wrote: »

They are insulated to prevent heat movement within the house. There is an outer layer of heavy insulation to keep the heat within the building. This is not just a heat pump issue. With central heating if you keep an entire house heated all day, you are wasting energy. Empty bedrooms etc.

I'm not sure of the exact figures and I'm on my phone so can't dig them out but on a standard home turning off the heating in one room doesn't necessary mean savings as the cold room results in significant heat losses from the rest of the house.

Impetus · 24-12-2013 5:48pm

ted1 wrote: »

So basically a heat pump is not a practical alternative for the majority of houses or apartments.

On the continent, especially in the Mediterranean area, every house and apartment uses heat pumps. You have to have air con so you might as well use the same system to heat the place in winter. Some well organised towns have district heating and cooling systems powered by the local incinerator - ie they buildings are plumbed for chilled (5C) and hot water travelling from the incinerator to each house/apartment. A heat exchanger in each room takes in these water feeds to heat or cool the room.

The only reason I mentioned the 10m limit, is that it applies to the Ururu Sarara system I have which ducts fresh air into the room via one of the pipes. Most air heat pumps don't bring fresh air in at all and have longer pipe ranges. There are other ducted options too.

Storage heating is basically a "British isles" idea, ie ill-conceived and badly designed. Every other country in Europe uses heat pumps, radiators, or ducted systems or underfloor.

Impetus · 24-12-2013 5:50pm

ted1 wrote: »

I'm not sure of the exact figures and I'm on my phone so can't dig them out but on a standard home turning off the heating in one room doesn't necessary mean savings as the cold room results in significant heat losses from the rest of the house.

Exactly. There is no point in switching off central heating in an un-usued room in a centrally heated house, unless that room is thermally insulated from the heated living area.

ted1 · 24-12-2013 5:54pm

Impetus wrote: »

On the continent, especially in the Mediterranean area, every house and apartment uses heat pumps. You have to have air con so you might as well use the same system to heat the place in winter. Some well organised towns have district heating and cooling systems powered by the local incinerator - ie they buildings are plumbed for chilled (5C) and hot water travelling from the incinerator to each house/apartment. A heat exchanger in each room takes in these water feeds to heat or cool the room.

The only reason I mentioned the 10m limit, is that it applies to the Ururu Sarara system I have which ducts fresh air into the room via one of the pipes. Most air heat pumps don't bring fresh air in at all and have longer pipe ranges. There are other ducted options too.

Storage heating is basically a "British isles" idea, ie ill-conceived and badly designed. Every other country in Europe uses heat pumps, radiators, or ducted systems or underfloor.

Grand but we are talking about Ireland where the buildings are built already and its cost prohibitive to retro fit heat pumps.

As regards district heating, I think Dublin missed out dramatically during the boom particularly the docklands. It'd be great to see a tie in with either of the power stations to provide district heating. Instead there cooling and dumping it into the Liffey

Impetus · 24-12-2013 6:01pm

ted1 wrote: »

Grand but we are talking about Ireland where the buildings are built already and its cost prohibitive to retro fit heat pumps.

As regards district heating, I think Dublin missed out dramatically during the boom particularly the docklands. It'd be great to see a tie in with either of the power stations to provide district heating. Instead there cooling and dumping it into the Liffey

It is easier to fit an air heat pump system into an old building than radiator or ducted central heating. All it requires is four pipes which can be combined in a conduit, run through a hole in a wall. Five to ten minutes with a drill can dig this hole through a meter thick wall in an old house.

On the storage heater front if you charge a storage heater with 3 kW consumption over 8 hours, you consume 24 kWh. Put 24 kWh of electricity into a heat pump and you will generate 5x heat = 120 kWh of heat.

Capt'n Midnight · 24-12-2013 6:14pm

Impetus wrote: »

You have the option of just charging your car at night, or if "battery" technologies allow (eg capacitors?) use a country's electric car fleet as "pumped storage" equivalent.

don't believe every thing you read. The economics are insane for a car owner.

A Tesla battery is 53Kwh so could store at most 53 units of electricity , if you deep discharge it which is just asking for trouble by the way. Night rate is 10.18c per unit. So you can save €5.40 of electricity into the battery. This could save you 90% of the power (charging efficiency) of 19c per unit dayrate so €9.06 worth of electricity out. A nett profit of €3.66.

The economics on wholesale are way worse - check out www.sem-o.com

http://theunderstatement.com/post/18030062041/its-a-brick-tesla-motors-devastating-design

If the battery is ever totally discharged, the owner is left with what Tesla describes as a “brick”: a completely immobile vehicle that cannot be started or even pushed down the street. The only known remedy is for the owner to pay Tesla approximately $40,000 to replace the entire battery.

What I am saying is that whatever form it takes, it provides a more flexible solution than storage heating.

Most apartments in this country have electric heating because of fire safety so just have to deal with it.

Look at the difference between peak power used. At a guesstimate there's a GW of extra heating used in winter. That's a lot of demand that could be spread out over time.
http://www.eirgrid.com/operations/systemperformancedata/weeklypeakdemand/

Impetus · 24-12-2013 6:22pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

don't believe every thing you read. The economics are insane for a car owner.

A Tesla battery is 53Kwh so could store at most 53 units of electricity , if you deep discharge it which is just asking for trouble by the way. Night rate is 10.18c per unit. So you can save €5.40 of electricity into the battery. This could save you 90% of the power (charging efficiency) of 19c per unit dayrate so €9.06 worth of electricity out. A nett profit of €3.66.

Charge your Tesla at night, rather than using a storage heater. If a more robust battery comes around (eg a capacitor) that might be suitable for in/out storage.

Most apartments in this country have electric heating because of fire safety so just have to deal with it.

So use air heat pumps, powered by electricity and get 5x as much heat for each kW of power consumed.

Capt'n Midnight · 24-12-2013 6:56pm

Impetus wrote: »

Charge your Tesla at night, rather than using a storage heater. If a more robust battery comes around (eg a capacitor) that might be suitable for in/out storage.

the point was that a lot of schemes sound sensible until you do some back of the envelope calcuations

you'd want to be a nutter to risk bricking a €40,000 battery to make three fifty

and besides how are you going to get to work in the morning if your battery is flat ?

and peak demand, and hence peak price is roughly when everyone arrives home and plugs in their cars to charge

Battery storage using today's technology is a non-starter if you have a grid connection

heat pumps in apartments ?
not going to happen to those that already exist

and on new build would it be cheaper to try for near-passive heating ?
or dumping solar heat under the building using PV powered pumps ?

Impetus · 24-12-2013 7:19pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

the point was that a lot of schemes sound sensible until you do some back of the envelope calcuations

you'd want to be a nutter to risk bricking a €40,000 battery to make three fifty

and besides how are you going to get to work in the morning if your battery is flat ?

Any system has to be managed. 1) you need a capacitor type battery with zillions of cycles and high energy efficiency and 2) you manage your car energy storage, so there is more than enough power remaining in the vehicle to serve your needs for the day. It is no different to setting an alarm clock.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

and peak demand, and hence peak price is roughly when everyone arrives home and plugs in their cars to charge

It is called smart metering. The price of power imported from the grid and the price of power exported to the grid varies depending on demand at the time of up/download.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Battery storage using today's technology is a non-starter if you have a grid connection

I presume you mean a standard grid connection for a house. Add hundreds of thousands of 50A/230V connections up and you have a lot of power. ie if the grid can deliver enough power to meet consumption demand across a network, it can handle dispersed "production" at a similar level.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

heat pumps in apartments ?
not going to happen to those that already exist

What are you saying? Ireland is a country full of ejits, who like high and increasing power bills? Perhaps you are correct. Even putting a single heat pump in the living area of an apartment - cost, incl installation €2,500 would provide a far superior living environment in terms of heat, clean air, lack of dampness, less noise etc and 5x efficiency on energy consumption. Far cheaper than gas central heating.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

and on new build would it be cheaper to try for near-passive heating ?
or dumping solar heat under the building using PV powered pumps ?

On a new build, you have the luxury of using any technology you feel appropriate.

AIR HEAT PUMPS ARE VERY OLD BUILDING FRIENDLY and energy efficient - far more so than other methods.

fclauson · 24-12-2013 9:05pm

Impetus wrote: »

They are insulated to prevent heat movement within the house. There is an outer layer of heavy insulation to keep the heat within the building. This is not just a heat pump issue. With central heating if you keep an entire house heated all day, you are wasting energy. Empty bedrooms etc.

In a very well insulted (and this airtight) house its best to keep the whole building at one temp - if you don't you can suffer from condensation issues

Its also super important to keep the whole building correctly ventilated

Impetus · 24-12-2013 9:33pm

fclauson wrote: »

In a very well insulted (and this airtight) house its best to keep the whole building at one temp - if you don't you can suffer from condensation issues

Its also super important to keep the whole building correctly ventilated

If the entire building is being used yes. If there are rooms that aren't used continuously, like bedrooms, they should be thermally insulated and kept in a separate zone, and heated when required. I'm not suggesting that you under-insulate a building - the outer shell should be highly insulated. One just needs a low level of insulation to contain the heat in the required zone, rather than heat spreading throughout the house when not required in all rooms.

Insulation standards:

1) Oirish 1960s
2) EU era standards
3) Passive Haus
4) Passive Haus modular

Condensation is caused by humidity, which air con / heat exchangers will remove. The Daikin Ururu Sarara system also has a MOULD SHOCK system which can be used to kill mould and similar (eg woodworm). It does so by bringing the humidity down to extremely low levels - even when a house is un-occupied.

fclauson · 26-12-2013 9:22am

Impetus wrote: »

...also has a MOULD SHOCK system which can be used to kill mould and similar (eg woodworm). It does so by bringing the humidity down to extremely low levels - even when a house is un-occupied.

Sounds interesting - I have noticed in my MHRV vented house that some of the older timber items are "distressed" that is they have shrunk - your program above my give them even more of a fright

Impetus · 26-12-2013 3:22pm

fclauson wrote: »

Sounds interesting - I have noticed in my MHRV vented house that some of the older timber items are "distressed" that is they have shrunk - your program above my give them even more of a fright

At least it involves no wood preservative chemicals etc. One comes across timber houses in Switzerland (where the humidity is far lower than Ireland) and they are sometimes 400 or 500 years old. The Kapellbrücke (wooden bridge) in Lucerne was built in the 14th century and still remains today (having had to be repaired after some idiot caused part of it to go on fire after dumping a cigarette in the 1990s).

Maintaining low humidity levels is key to keeping timber and artwork etc in good condition. Humidity (Ireland is one of the most humid countries in the world) is the cause of so much rot, rust, and damage to things. It also affects the health of people - it slows mental activity and encourages diseases like arthritis.

maninasia · 13-01-2014 5:00pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

now look at the other graph - it's what happens when renewables kick in

it says you can sell power for just twice the price you bought it at.
but you only get 150% of what you paid because you loose 1/4 of the power through conversions

suddenly a 500% gross profit becomes just 50%. to give you an idea of the capital costs involved, it's been 45 years since anyone started building energy storage here and it's still just Turlough Hill. and it's only in the last few years that wind has eroded the peak price so for 40 years that "six times" just hasn't interested more investors.

tl;dr if pumped storage wasn't economically attractive before wind it's less attractive now

Wouldn't a better idea nowadays be to promote large fleets of electric cars which could automatically suck up electricity surges and act as a distributed storage mechanism as mentioned earlier. Less capital intensive and a win-win for both government and the consumer.

maninasia · 13-01-2014 5:05pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

don't believe every thing you read. The economics are insane for a car owner.

A Tesla battery is 53Kwh so could store at most 53 units of electricity , if you deep discharge it which is just asking for trouble by the way. Night rate is 10.18c per unit. So you can save €5.40 of electricity into the battery. This could save you 90% of the power (charging efficiency) of 19c per unit dayrate so €9.06 worth of electricity out. A nett profit of €3.66.

The economics on wholesale are way worse - check out www.sem-o.com

http://theunderstatement.com/post/18030062041/its-a-brick-tesla-motors-devastating-design

Most apartments in this country have electric heating because of fire safety so just have to deal with it.

Look at the difference between peak power used. At a guesstimate there's a GW of extra heating used in winter. That's a lot of demand that could be spread out over time.
http://www.eirgrid.com/operations/systemperformancedata/weeklypeakdemand/

Tesla doesn't have badly designed batteries, the modules are independent and they offer a long-term warranty on them at a price.

Electrical battery storage is decreasing in cost at the same rate as PV was, therefore things that are totally uneconomical now will be profitable and feasilbe within the next few years.

Impetus · 13-01-2014 5:43pm

maninasia wrote: »

Tesla doesn't have badly designed batteries, the modules are independent and they offer a long-term warranty on them at a price.

Electrical battery storage is decreasing in cost at the same rate as PV was, therefore things that are totally uneconomical now will be profitable and feasilbe within the next few years.

While one accepts what you say about the Tesla battery, it seems to me that electric cars will be "strategic charging" opportunities to make use of cheap power (via smart metering) when the wind is blowing - as we saw in December. In other words one programs the car charging system to fill to the brim while the cost per kWh is below a certain specified amount. In the absence of cheap wind on a day, the car might charge just enough for one's daily commute + 15%.

If/when a capacitor energy storage unit comes to the market, like the one promised by Eestor, which can be cycled for for hundreds of thousands of times, without any degradation, the electric car might sell power back to the grid when needed.

Capt'n Midnight · 13-01-2014 6:33pm

maninasia wrote: »

Wouldn't a better idea nowadays be to promote large fleets of electric cars which could automatically suck up electricity surges and act as a distributed storage mechanism as mentioned earlier. Less capital intensive and a win-win for both government and the consumer.

Would you risk prematurely aging a €40,000 battery for the sake €3.66 some nights ?

everyone here has experienced dead laptop or phone batteries, lithium technology if very unforgiving of deep discharge, drop below 2v per cell and it's game over.

regardless it's an insane capital cost €1,000 to per KWh stored.
and it can't provide power at peak demand because that's just after people drive home from work, which means low batteries.

Greensleeves · 13-01-2014 9:18pm

In the UK the National Grid is considering paying businesses to operate at night as it seeks to tackle the spiralling sums of money it has to pay to wind farms to keep their turbines shut down during off-peak hours, typically the middle of the night.

http://processengineering.theengineer.co.uk/power-and-water/plan-to-pay-process-plants-to-use-electricity/1017753.article

maninasia · 14-01-2014 5:52am

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Would you risk prematurely aging a €40,000 battery for the sake €3.66 some nights ?

everyone here has experienced dead laptop or phone batteries, lithium technology if very unforgiving of deep discharge, drop below 2v per cell and it's game over.

regardless it's an insane capital cost €1,000 to per KWh stored.
and it can't provide power at peak demand because that's just after people drive home from work, which means low batteries.

It's not so much about providing a battery storage system for the grid, it's more about taking this useful cheap energy that would otherwise largely go to waste and storing it for use for transportation, thereby replacing oil used for transportation or more fuel being burned for electricity generation.

This is 99% about having smart software and algorithms and 1% hardware challenge.

For instance somebody keeps on going on about 'bricking', that's not been a problem for many years for common electronic items, it's a minor tweak to software to make sure there is reserve capacity in the battery.

fclauson · 14-01-2014 9:58am

Is Ireland heading this way - Germany being bankrupted by renewerable energy

http://t.co/Vs5P2tOvx0

1,769 MW wind generation at 18:30 today

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