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Post Scrappage Rant
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14-06-2011 12:21pm#1
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And do you think that reducing VAT to 5.2% would be beneficial to anyone?RoverJames wrote: »Which is why I said VAT
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And do you think that reducing VAT to 5.2% would be beneficial to anyone?
See belowRoverJames wrote: »..........Artificially boosting or propping up a certain sector of the economy is not something I find economically wise unless it is sustainable.................0 -
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RoverJames wrote: »See below
It is an artificial lift but I think the intention was one of two things.
1. See how bad things were going to get, and try help absorb some of the impact of the crash on a massive industry that hosts many jobs in the country.
2. Soften the crash if it did (which is more obvious now) go on longer than at first predicted.0 -
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- the scrappage scheme is NOT good for all of the Irish car trade, but only a part of it (the salesman in the main dealer). The scrappage scheme means that people in for example the parts trade, or independent mechanics have a much tougher time as people who otherwise might spend money on fixing their old car decide it's not worth the bother when they can get €1500 for it and have a brand new car with cheap tax and low fuel consumption.
Keeping old cars on the road (once properly maintained, obviously) is better for the many independent garages who look after these cars. Keeping old cars on the road ensures that more money stays in Ireland, and you don't need to be an economist to figure out that this is a very good thing. Consequently, the scrappage scheme is not actually good for the economy at all! It undeniably increases VAT and VRT revenue, but at the expense of what? The jobs lost by those outside of the SIMI network? The other sectors of the service based economy, who are making less money because people have spent their money on a car instead of say improving the house, buying a new TV etc?
Lastly, a lot of the new cars being bought are complicated diesel engines, with turbos, injectors, DMFs, DPFs and God knows what other gubbins that could go wrong.
Now, if you're like me, or anyone else on this forum who knows about cars, you'll know how to look after a modern diesel properly and touch wood the worst that will happen is the DMF. But as we know, most people don't have a clue how to look after cars, and I know of people who just drive around the town all the time but have a diesel because of the low tax etc. So for some people, who do not know how to look after their diesel car properly, the new car will end up costing more and causing more hassle in the long run as it will be less reliable than the older car.
Goodbye scrappage scheme, and good riddance. I hope we never see the likes of it ever again.
I think you just totally contradicted yourself all in one post.
eg, you say with everyone buying new cars there will be no old cars for mechanics to fix (which is something i find totally flawed btw)
Then in the next breath you say a lot of people cant look after their complicated diesel engine? so going by your train of thought surely the mechanics you said that would lose all their work because of the scrappage scheme can fix these?
I would love to see figures to back up the parts trade loss too as i dont agree with what you said.0 -
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No - it's an example of the huge amount of tax the government get on each new car sold. Giving a €1,500 or €1,250 rebate off the amount is very little in the grand scheme of things, and has more than likely paid for itself many times over.
It's not a great example though in fairness, the tax take on a Megane, Clio or similar would be more relevent
The A4 you mention and those like it would have been bought regardless of the scrappage scheme.0 -
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RoverJames wrote: »It's not a great example though in fairness, the tax take on a Megane, Clio or similar would be more relevent
It's a slightly better example than the €14,000 of VAT and VRT on the 3 Series Touring invoice, which is the only other one on my desk
Both cars would qualify under scrappage though.
Still comes to just shy of 30% of the invoice price, so that figure seems about right for a VRT Cat B vehicle.RoverJames wrote: »The A4 you mention and those like it would have been bought regardless of the scrappage scheme.
Not neccesarily. The scrappage scheme has made it more "acceptable" overall to own a new car. People were worried in 09 & 10 about having a new plate, but it's much more accepted now.
Plus, you've got to keep up with the O'Malley's down the road....0 -
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gazmc18
Even if the VRT on a car is only €2000 and the €1250 rebate is given. Its still €750 earned that would not of been without the scheme.
It's €750 into the coffers in VRT and maybe €10,000 straight over to whatever country manufactured the car. Had that €10,000 been spent here, it would have supported jobs throughout the economy
So what your saying is spend your money on something "Irish" instead of buying a car. So maybe we could all go spend 10K on spuds and guinness.
Seriously though no cars are made in Ireland so you got no choice. Again if we didnt send that €10,000 to another country we couldnt make our €750 so whatever way you look at it its what we got to do to make revenue on our end. I would rather get a small percentage of something than 100% of nothing.0 -
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RoverJames wrote: »It's not a great example though in fairness, the tax take on a Megane, Clio or similar would be more relevent
The A4 you mention and those like it would have been bought regardless of the scrappage scheme.
no , it wouldnt, not everybody who used the scrappage scheme was stupid enough to buy those cars which will probably be on the scrap heap before the next scrappage scheme rolls around0 -
Drummerboy08 wrote: »Spent on what though??!
Are you suggesting that Irish people shouldn't buy a car at all because they can't buy one that is built in Ireland?
If that's the case, we shouldn't buy TV's, IPod's, cookers, or pretty much anything that is used in our day to day lives, because very few of these everyday items are built in Ireland too.
Your posts make no sense to me.
The industry which was most decimated by the collapse should have been propped up not car sales, which BTW is still going to be decimated with no long term benefit to anyone Irish or the environment.
The housing stock in this country is in bits, badly insulated and made. If the government gave as good a grant for improving our housing stock it would have made a bigger impact here then people buying new cars.
I know there are grants for home improvements, but these have only come in now that everyone with any spare cash has spend it on a shiny new 11 car and can't afford fix up their house now.
Or they could have reduced VAT on restaurant's and hotels to 0% to get people spending their money, as opposed to a lot of cases the with cars spending the banks money, on something that will provide direct employment in Ireland.
The UK, USA and all the other countries which had scrappage schemes where trying to stimulate their own car industries, and failed miserably since nearly everyone bought small Asian cars, yet we decided the best industry to stimulate was one we don't have
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The industry which was most decimated by the collapse should have been propped up not car sales, which BTW is still going to be decimated with no long term benefit to anyone Irish or the environment.
I have to disagree with you there - it's of huge benefit to the thousands of PAYE workers who are employed in the motor trade. If these people were to be made redundant the Taxpayer would end up footing a bill of hundreds of millions to support these people.
Also, the scrappage scheme has encouraged alot of people to buy low emission cars. Explain to me how that's not good for the enviroment?The housing stock in this country is in bits, badly insulated and made. If the government gave as good a grant for improving our housing stock it would have made a bigger impact here then people buying new cars.
People here are trying to encourage buying Irish products, but you've just claimed that one of the biggest Irish made items out there are poorly made?
Not only that, but if people had have paid more attention to what they were spending their money on in the first place, they wouldn't have to worry about this problem.
It also wouldn't have kept half as many people in employment, which goes back to my first point above.I know there are grants for home improvements, but these have only come in now that everyone with any spare cash has spend it on a shiny new 11 car and can't afford fix up their house now.
That's someone's personal choice - if they want to buy a new car instead of building an extension then it's up to them to do so.
Alot of people put money into home improvements instead of buying a car, so this is kind of a moot point.Or they could have reduced VAT on restaurant's and hotels to 0% to get people spending their money, as opposed to a lot of cases the with cars spending the banks money, on something that will provide direct employment in Ireland.
Again, the Irish motor trade provides direct employment in Ireland. Thousands of people in fact. Just because car's aren't built in Ireland anymore does not mean that the motor trade is useless.
I can also assure you that the majority of people who bought a new car in the last two years more than likely did so with their own cash. The banks in Ireland simply do not have the money to lend.The UK, USA and all the other countries which had scrappage schemes where trying to stimulate their own car industries, and failed miserably since nearly everyone bought small Asian cars, yet we decided the best industry to stimulate was one we don't have
Again, I don't see your point. We DO have a Motor Industry in Ireland. While it is not involved in the manufacturing end of things, it is involved in the sales, and maintenance end of things.0 -
The industry which was most decimated by the collapse should have been propped up not car sales,.........
You mean the construction industry? The industry where semi-skilled hod-carriers were pulling home over €1k a week, for building cr4p houses?.......
The housing stock in this country is in bits, badly insulated and made. If the government gave as good a grant for improving our housing stock it would have made a bigger impact here then people buying new cars.
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I doubt it!..............
I know there are grants for home improvements, but these have only come in now that everyone with any spare cash has spend [sic] it on a shiny new 11 car and can't afford fix up their house now.
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Only people with 10 year old qualifying cars were able to avail of the scrappage scheme. A bit strange to say that everyone with spare cash has spent it on a new car.
(There's approx €60B on deposit in Irish Banks. Not much of this was spent on new cars).........
Or they could have reduced VAT on restaurant's [sic] and hotels to 0% to get people spending their money, as opposed to a lot of cases the with cars spending the banks money, on something that will provide direct employment in Ireland.
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So, a 0% VAT on Hotels and Restaurants. If that was the case, are you suggesting prices would have come down significantly enough to stimulate that sector of the economy?..................
The UK, USA and all the other countries which had scrappage schemes where [sic] trying to stimulate their own car industries, and failed miserably since nearly everyone bought small Asian cars, yet we decided the best industry to stimulate was one we don't have
The Irish stimulus was for the Car Retail 'Industry', it was never designated to be a stimulus for any manufacturing industry.
For a safe, clean economy, we need to refresh our motoring stock. The scrappage scheme helped in that respect. If we have no new cars sold, we will have a shortage of used cars. (Try getting a '09 car?)
As for messing up the used car market? Surely taking used cars out of the market, for scrappage would help increase the prices of used cars and help the used car sales industry?
Also, if the scrappage scheme saved 5,000 people from being on the dole for the past two years, it's worth it. (5,000 x 2 years dole payments would be in the region of €50m in benefit)0 -
Eric Cartman wrote: »no , it wouldnt, not everybody who used the scrappage scheme was stupid enough to buy those cars which will probably be on the scrap heap before the next scrappage scheme rolls around
I think anyone in the trade can confirm that the A4 or similar was not the most popular seller to folks availing of the scrappage scheme. Do you honestly think the majority of those who availed of the scheme did not buy the likes of a Megane, Focus, Clio, Yaris, i30, C'eed etc??Drummerboy08 wrote: »I have to disagree with you there - it's of huge benefit to the thousands of PAYE workers who are employed in the motor trade. If these people were to be made redundant the Taxpayer would end up footing a bill of hundreds of millions to support these people..
How many new cars sold since the scrappage scheme was introduced were sold to someone who availed of the scrappage scheme? Ish/ballpark figures are fine if anyone has them
Once the scrappage scheme ends are all these thousands of folk going to be made redundant so?0 -
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RoverJames wrote: »
How many new cars sold since the scrappage scheme was introduced were sold to someone who availed of the scrappage scheme? Ish/ballpark figures are fine if anyone has them
Once the scrappage scheme ends are all these thousands of folk going to be made redundant so?
I don't have clue tbh.
On your second point, I think that there will be a number of redundancies once the scrappage scheme ends, but not near as many if we never had the scheme in the first place.
The scrappage scheme has generated a lot of cash flow, and a small amount of income for dealers that would not have been able to survive without it. Because of this, they can now keep their heads above water.0 -
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