Cypriot 737 crashes in strange circumstances.

murphaph · 14-08-2005 12:53pm #1

Just watching the scoop-hungry SkyNews and they're reporting a crashed Cypriot 737 belonging to 'Helios Airways' in Greece. Reports from there indicate a loss of communications between the crew and ground control leading to the scrambling of to F-16 jets to investigate. These military pilots reported seeing no captain in his seat and the co-pilot slumped forward over the controls. Greek TV is apparently reporting a text message being sent from a passenger to his cousin on the ground. Apparently it said "Cousin, the pilot has turned blue, farewell, we are freezing". Looks like a technical fault with the cabin pressurisation system at the moment. Very sad indeed.

kleefarr · 14-08-2005 12:56pm

My mother flew from Cyprus to Dublin on a Helios flight friday. :eek:

Lennoxschips · 14-08-2005 1:44pm

And there I am complaining about Aer Lingus closing the check in desk too early. I'm glad I'm safe with two feet on the ground now.

murphaph · 14-08-2005 2:20pm

kleefarr wrote:

My mother flew from Cyprus to Dublin on a Helios flight friday. :eek:

You don't know how lucky you are mate-they've only got 4 planes so the odds are short of your mam having flown on the doomed one.

BuffyBot · 14-08-2005 2:50pm

You don't know how lucky you are mate

It doesn't automatically follow that the same set of circumstances would have occured. We'll just have to wait and see.

saobh_ie · 14-08-2005 3:50pm

Absolutely horrible to hear about it, the aviation industry is not having a good few weeks with the dodgy Air France landing and now this. That’s an Airbus and a Boeing gone now.

From the reports I'm guessing that there was some sort of fault with the cabin pressurisation, miss-reported to air traffic control by the Captain as an air conditioning fault before he left the cockpit to get more detail from his cabin crew and perhaps make an inspection somewhere in the cabin.

Whatever happened next led to the crew being overcome, maybe the pilot tried to fix something and bypassed the mechanisms, which would automatically release the passenger oxygen masks, which I believe the fighter pilots didn't report seeing.

The lack of oxygen and severe cold then overcame the passengers and crew. The jets reported that the captain wasn't visible in the cabin and the co-pilot was slumped over, the aircraft was obviously proceeding on autopilot.

I’m guessing it could have been shot down as the autopilot wouldn’t fly it into a mountain would it? It would fly it on course to its destination and circle or land it? If it was a shoot down I’d agree with that on the security side of things because it could have been seized by terrorists and they had killed the flight crew, removed the captain from his seat so they could fly it and hid from the fighter planes only to pop up and take control over a populated area? Unlikely for a whole heap of reasons but in that situation whats a military official on the ground to do?

Did anybody else notice Sky News focusing on the fire engine that was about to tumble over down the hillside?

Rest in Peace passengers and crew of HCY522

saobh_ie · 14-08-2005 3:53pm

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-08-14T142531Z_01_KWA433804_RTRUKOC_0_UK-CRASH-GREECE.xml

There have been problems reported involving Helios planes in the past. In December 2004, three passengers were taken to hospital after the plane lost cabin pressure and made an emergency landing at Larnaca.
[end quote]

PhoenixRising · 14-08-2005 7:15pm

saobh_ie wrote:

From the reports I'm guessing that there was some sort of fault with the cabin pressurisation, miss-reported to air traffic control by the Captain as an air conditioning fault before he left the cockpit to get more detail from his cabin crew and perhaps make an inspection somewhere in the cabin.

The pressurisation system and air conditioning systems are interlinked on all aircraft. It's not possible to pressurise an aircraft if you lose your air conditioning system.

Whatever happened next led to the crew being overcome, maybe the pilot tried to fix something and bypassed the mechanisms, which would automatically release the passenger oxygen masks, which I believe the fighter pilots didn't report seeing.

There is nothing the pilot would be able to fix back in the cabin. All they could do is try to troubleshoot the problem from the flight deck.

I’m guessing it could have been shot down as the autopilot wouldn’t fly it into a mountain would it? It would fly it on course to its destination and circle or land it?

The autopilot would fly the aircraft into a mountain. There would be aural alerts in the flight deck about the approaching terrain, eventually telling the pilots to pull up, but it's not a manoeuvre the autopilot can fly. The plane would not have been able to autoland unless the crew had previously set the flight management computer and the autopilot up for an autoland by programming in the arrival and the runway in use, which is only advised to them towards the later stages of the flight. Even if it had been set up for an autoland, which is only used in severe fog, the pilots need to select the flaps and landing gear as this can't be done automatically.

BrianD · 14-08-2005 8:24pm

It;s hard to follow from some of the press reports if the plane had taken off from Athens or was on its way there (athens was a stop off on the route). If it had not landed you can see why the fighters were scrambled...unresponsive aircraft over shoots airport and then flies onwards.

Lennoxschips · 14-08-2005 9:03pm

Perhaps the tower should be able to remotely control planes in this kind of situation. The technology is possible, it just needs to be implemented. Although, if the "remote control" were to fall into the wrong hands it could have disastrous consequences.

cyclopath2001 · 14-08-2005 9:24pm

PhoenixRising wrote:

The autopilot would fly the aircraft into a mountain. There would be aural alerts in the flight deck about the approaching terrain, eventually telling the pilots to pull up, but it's not a manoeuvre the autopilot can fly.

The Greeks said it was at 34,000 feet, that's higher than any mountain. It was being followed by F16s for some 40 minutes. I guess there's more to come out of this sad story.

Anyone remember an incident some years ago involving an Aer Lingus flight from Cork? The senior hostess noticed the pressurisation wasn't on and and had to tell the pilot. It could have happened here.

Some interesting stories of this type here:http://flyinginireland.com/aaiu.php?pageNum_aaiu=5&totalRows_aaiu=114

BrianD · 14-08-2005 11:41pm

Well given the recent stories about an Aer Arann plane flying around with a faulty fuel guage for a period of time and not repaired because it would inconvenience passengers, one wonders how many planes are flying around with faulty but "acceptable" faults.

The news reports seem to suggest that the plane was flying relatively low as it was on the first leg of the journey and they are saying that pressurisation/oxegen should not have been a critical problem. Obviously not.

PhoenixRising · 14-08-2005 11:52pm

BrianD wrote:

one wonders how many planes are flying around with faulty but "acceptable" faults.

Nearly every airplane in the sky is flying around with something not working correctly or not working at all.

Airplanes are regularly dispatched with non-critical systems, services, gauges, instruments etc..unservicable. Every aircraft has a document on board called an MEL (minimum equipment list) which outlines what defects the airplane can be safely dispatched with. You wouldn't believe how often pilots need to consult this.

dowlingm · 15-08-2005 1:43pm

very like the crash of Payne Stewart's private jet, sadly.

MarkoP11 · 15-08-2005 2:06pm

Pressurisation is possibly the biggest cause of emergencies in commerical aircraft. The first jet aircraft the Comet failed owing to airframe faitigue owing to the cyclic pressurisation (that thankfully was instantaneous to those on board). Up to 10,000 you wouldn't notice much amiss, and the cabin is still warm from sitting on the ground

Its -60 up at altitude if the AC goes you are in major trouble, either you freeze or you end up with a control panel frozen and have no power to do anything. The pressurisation system has a number of backup modes but the game plan if you have a de-pressurisation is to declare an emergency and dive to 10,000 as fast as possible

In this case it could be very realistic chance the cabin didn't pressurise at take off or wasn't correctly set at which point the flight would have set off on the correct course and you don't notice the gradual reduction on the air pressure and the lack of oxygen and you just pass out, if the system had explosively gone wrong you would seriously know about it

Questions are

Why the captain left his seat, there is nothing in the rear cabin unless there was window or door as the root cause of the pressurisation everything is in the cockpit

The pilots have a separate air supply

Why they made no effort to dive the plane to a safe height where its safe to run depressurised. Simple turn of a dial to select FL100

How the plane crashed since it clearly had decended, did the Greeks shoot it down ?

Aircraft are designed on the very edge of the margin the safety margin is as low as you can get by with as extra margin is weight

Sarsfield · 15-08-2005 2:17pm

MarkoP11 wrote:

Questions are

Why the captain left his seat, there is nothing in the rear cabin unless there was window or door as the root cause of the pressurisation everything is in the cockpit

The pilots have a separate air supply

Why they made no effort to dive the plane to a safe height where its safe to run depressurised. Simple turn of a dial to select FL100

How the plane crashed since it clearly had decended, did the Greeks shoot it down ?

Aircraft are designed on the very edge of the margin the safety margin is as low as you can get by with as extra margin is weight

Possibly flight deck oxygen supply failed? Captain attempting to access portable oxygen? Why a descent wasn't initiated I don't know.

Flew as programmed into autopilot (including hold at destination) until ran out of fuel, then basically glided in a straight line into terrain?

As for safety margin, you are either wrong, or have chosen your words carelessly. There is considerable redundancy on nearly all aircraft systems except, apparently, flight deck oxygen.

BrianD · 15-08-2005 3:20pm

The cockpit voice recorders should shed some light on it. According to reports, the fighter pilots also saw other people in the cockpit. Witnesses also say the plane was flying extremely low with one fighter in front and the other behind. Now unless it was downed by machine gun fire it was unlikely that a missile was used at such close range and with a 'friendly' aircraft in the vicinity.

It is quite likely that the autopilot had a preprogrammed routine for the approach to Athens and the pilots would have intervened at some point. As they didn't the plane kept descending at the determined rate until it hit the ground. Probably had plenty of fuel on board as usually these 'short haul' flights that have a stop off only refuel at the final destination.

Stimpyone · 15-08-2005 4:05pm

Going by their website it appears that the aircraft in question was barely a year old

http://www.flyhelios.com/about_fleet.php

Our Fleet

Helios Airways currently operates a fleet of Boeing B737 aircraft.

Two B737-800 Next Generation 'Veni' and 'Zela', were delivered brand-new from Boeing in May 2001. These state-of-the-art aircraft are furnished with 189 leather seats and an inflight entertainment system.

A third B737-300 series aircraft 'Olympia' was delivered in April 2004, featuring 142 spacious leather seats.

A fourth aircraft has recently been delivered in order to cover our increased fleet requirements, featuring 140 seats.

The B737-300 is the aircraft in question.

MarkoP11 · 15-08-2005 4:29pm

The margin of safety relates to the design of the structure of the aircraft weight is critcal and thus the materials and design are focused on producing the lightest possible machine within the safety limits. Have a look at what Airbus did on the A380. The design tolerances on a jet engine are terrifying. Its go to go from sitting in 40+ degree heat on the runway in the Middle East to operating at -60 at 40,000 feet and during all this the blades on the intake must not move by more than a fraction

Thats where my engineering training stops

The margin is small a lot smaller than elsewhere which is compensated by the rigourous international standards to both maintenance and the training of the pilots to deal with issues. That said saddly human error is responsible for an awful lot of accidents, then again in many cases the human mind can beat the system and get out of a nasty situation

There are at least two of everything on board, two AC packs, multiple hydraulics, backup flight instruments airbus have 7 separate computer systems. The only thing you have one of is the airframe, if that fails you are in trouble, all it takes is small puncture in the skin.

Pilots O2 is on separate supply I think and also there are O2 bottles

Something went really wrong here and given the 737 is the most common type out there in the short hop business there are a lot of questions to ask and a lot of people worried. The fact is accidents are rare but if you fish around the number of pressurisation failures/errors would really scare people and thats the last thing we want

Sarsfield · 15-08-2005 5:14pm

MarkoP11 wrote:

Pilots O2 is on separate supply I think and also there are O2 bottles

According to comments on a well known pilots message board, on a 737, pilot O2 is supplied separately to cabin emergency O2. However both pilots oxygen is from the same system. I don't know if this is correct. If it is, it would appear to be a matter for concern.

murphaph · 15-08-2005 5:41pm

According to SkyNews the Greek Air Force pilots reported seeing the passengers oxygen masks had deployed in the cabin. SkyNews also showed a publicity video of the aircraft in question, recorded when it was delivered recently. The thing was brand spanking new so there are indeed some serious questions that need to be asked and answered. Scary stuff indeed.

I hate flying. I used to like it when I was a kid but I had to fly a lot for work a few years ago and had some nasty flights. Ever since I have disliked it.

The TV news is reporting that the black boxes are headed for Paris. I assume the reason is that Greece's air accident investigation capabilities are limited. Would we be able to investigate this sort of thing or would we rely on the UK to do it for us?

saobh_ie · 15-08-2005 7:26pm

As more news comes out the pictures getting more and more unclear, although the conspiracy theorist in me finds it strange that an shiney new Airbus gets destroyed in North America and now a Boeing gets destroyed in Europe.

I'll be watching the investigation on this with interest as there doesn't seem to be a major reason for this to have happened.

Although if I recall correctly most aviation incidents are because of a bunch of small things going wrong rather than one big thing.

Capt'n Midnight · 15-08-2005 7:31pm

murphaph wrote:

The TV news is reporting that the black boxes are headed for Paris. I assume the reason is that Greece's air accident investigation capabilities are limited. Would we be able to investigate this sort of thing or would we rely on the UK to do it for us?

The Greeks have a real Air Force, so our orange coloured boxes would be sent to Farnborough

At that height you have several seconds to get your mask on before you pass out, if the pilot wasn't in the cockpit then if the co-pilot did anything other than put his mask on then it's possible both would be unconcious before they could sort out the problem - it's all pure speculation.

IIRC there was a problem with the valve during the 777 development, but that was pre-production. DC 10 have depressurised when cargo doors flew off, with 747's it was the rear bulkhead.

Then again a hawaiian 737 lost a large chunk of the cabin at 24,000 ft and survived. - http://www.aloha.net/~icarus/ the plane flew with this damage.

Channel 4 have just said that Police have raided the offices of the company !

murphaph · 15-08-2005 7:51pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

The Greeks have a real Air Force, so our orange coloured boxes would be sent to Farnborough

Thought as much. Farnborough did invent air accident investigation as we know it though, so no better place!

This whole incident is as clear as mud right now. Don't be surprised if the cockpit voice recorders reveal zip.

arbeitsscheuer · 15-08-2005 8:04pm

murphaph wrote:

Thought as much. Farnborough did invent air accident investigation as we know it though, so no better place!

This whole incident is as clear as mud right now. Don't be surprised if the cockpit voice recorders reveal zip.

If the incident occurred due to rapid depressurisation, which is what looks likely (oxygen failure and heater failure - either a problem with two separate apparatuses or one simple explanation that is depressurisation) then yeah, the cockpit recorders will reveal bog-all except for why the pilots were unable to reach their own masks. And even that won't be a big deal, as somebody else has put forward a pretty standard and plausible expanation for this (I think it was Cap'n Midnight) so...

Mechanical failure, probably depressurisation due to faulty valves or something unforeseen. We'll see. Usually don;t find out the full story for months and sometimes years - remember how long it took them to deliver a final conclusion on the TWA explosion?

maxheadroom · 15-08-2005 9:08pm

Don't the cockpit voice recorders only record on a 15minute loop? So, surely (assuming the 'incident' happened a while before the crash) all we'll hear is the passangers frantically trying to regain control, and about 14 mins of silence before that?

MarkoP11 · 15-08-2005 9:16pm

Depends on the type 30minutes on old planes at least 2 hours on newer ones. The great mistake after minor accidents is not to pull the circuit breaker for the CVR which makes sure that recording is not over written.

Depending on age the blackbox may not record the cabin pressure

The whole thing is noticing you have a problem

When an un-pressurized aircraft climbs to altitude, the effects of hypoxia can be quite subtle and insidious, as the body will attempt to acclimatize to the altitude change. A flight crew operating under a high workload on the flight deck may not fully appreciate or recognise the initial symptoms of hypoxia. It is therefore possible that judgement may be impaired to such an extent that corrective actions associated with dealing with an emergency situation may lead to incorrect or inappropriate response which could endanger the aircraft. The very nature of hypoxia itself is such that the pilot can become the poorest judge of when he or she is suffering from its insidious effects.

Taken from a AAIU report of a crew error on the pressurisation of Irish 737

Victor · 16-08-2005 12:53am

Stimpyone wrote:

Going by their website it appears that the aircraft in question was barely a year old.

...

A third B737-300 series aircraft 'Olympia' was delivered in April 2004, featuring 142 spacious leather seats.

The B737-300 is the aircraft in question.

If it's a -300 series it is probably an older aircraft. Its just that they received it in 2004.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/737family/background.html

Last 737-300 delivery was 17 Dec 1999

Stimpyone · 16-08-2005 7:38am

Victor wrote:

If it's a -300 series it is probably an older aircraft. Its just that they received it in 2004.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/737family/background.html

Last 737-300 delivery was 17 Dec 1999

As far as I know theres quite a few of these sitting in the Arizona desert still in their rappers so to speek, looking for a buyer they are for all essential purposes brand new. Not sure if this aircraft is one of them but I am unable to find any record of it on any registry before the current owners. Which is why I'm jumping to conclusions.

BrianD · 16-08-2005 12:10pm

Are these aircraft not built to order? Ok, I know that airlines go bust, cancel orders etc. but I would be surprised if there was a fleet of these sitting in the desert gathering dust (hehe)

dowlingm · 16-08-2005 1:40pm

Having a "real Air Force" is nothing to do with it, especially since most military aircraft don't have recorders!

The Helios CVR/DFDR are going to France for analysis, as did the AF 358 boxes.

Stimpyone · 16-08-2005 3:35pm

BrianD wrote:

Are these aircraft not built to order? Ok, I know that airlines go bust, cancel orders etc. but I would be surprised if there was a fleet of these sitting in the desert gathering dust (hehe)

You would be surprised at the amount of aircraft sitting in the deserts of the US, and this is only one of several.

http://www.polarinertia.com/may03/mojave.htm#

Currently at the field are many older second generation aircraft including Boeing 727, 737 and Douglas DC-9’s, awaiting resales to foreign airlines or salvage companies. Also present are a few new planes delivered directly from the factory, or newer aircraft on temporary strorage waiting for a pick up in the travel business

Boeing took a serious hit after 9/11, there were major cancalations ( with Ryan Air being the exception ) once on the production line the aircraft would have to be finished and stored. Granted there arn't 100's of new 737's sitting around in the desert but boeing will try to sell these at a competitive rate ( get rid of the back log ) ideal for a relatively new company.

Again I'm not 100% on the origins of this aircraft.

Webmonkey · 16-08-2005 3:42pm

And now another plane has come down - "152 feared dead after Venezuelan plane crash " - http://www.breakingnews.ie/2005/08/16/story216352.html

And as well as that a Plane in Britain had reported problems with its aircraft the day of the Greek Crash. http://www.breakingnews.ie/2005/08/16/story216364.html

Isn't it all a bit strange?

Sarsfield · 16-08-2005 3:49pm

Webmonkey wrote:

And as well as that a Plane in Britain had reported problems with its aircraft the day of the Greek Crash. http://www.breakingnews.ie/2005/08/16/story216364.html

Isn't it all a bit strange?

Many things happen on a day-to-day basis that never make the press. But they get dragged up in large numbers when something serious happens.

As regards recent serious incidents, I haven't heard a word here about the major SNAFU at Boston where an Aer Lingus A330 (VERY) nearly collided with another aircraft as they took off simultaneously on crossing runways. Even RTE only picked it up at the weekend.

Edit: Boston, not Chicago

Stimpyone · 16-08-2005 3:55pm

Sarsfield wrote:

As regards recent serious incidents, I haven't heard a word here about the major SNAFU at Chicago where an Aer Lingus A330 (VERY) nearly collided with another aircraft as they took off simultaneously on crossing runways. Even RTE only picked it up at the weekend.

You'd be surprised how often things like that happen

Webmonkey · 16-08-2005 3:58pm

Well 160 died on todays one. Makes me feel like not travelling on an aircraft ever again

Sarsfield · 16-08-2005 4:20pm

Stimpyone wrote:

You'd be surprised how often things like that happen

Little surprises me! However this was an unusually close one.

Webmonkey, I know it's the usual comparison, but how many people have died in road accidents worldwide today? In the last week? I'd take air travel over road travel any day.

murphaph · 16-08-2005 4:32pm

Sarsfield wrote:

Webmonkey, I know it's the usual comparison, but how many people have died in road accidents worldwide today? In the last week? I'd take air travel over road travel any day.

It's an age old debate isn't it! It's still undeniable that even though there's a higher probability of being involved in a car crash than a plane crash, when you sit into your car you are still only 2 feet from the ground so if something goes wrong you have a good chance at survival, the same can't so easily be said at 34,000 feet. I know, I know, the statistics clearly state that..... but come on, it's natural to irrationally fear ascending to the heavens when anthing more than a 50 foot drop is usually fatal for human beings! I know I do. I reassure myself when flying by telling myself that I'll likely die in any accident so won't have too much to worry about, weird? probably!

Stimpyone · 16-08-2005 7:02pm

According to this site the aircraft in question was originally a Deutsche BA aircraft reg D-ADBQ, delivered to them in 98.

http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/view_details.cgi?date=08142005&reg=5B-DBY&airline=Helios+Airways

some photos of it back then...

http://www.aviationimages.org/gallery.php?lang=en&ppp=15&regsearch=D-ADBQ

So it looks like it wasn't brand new after all

brianw · 17-08-2005 4:10pm

cn 29099 / ln 2982 - 5B-DBY Helios Airways Boeing 737-31S

Construction Number : 29099
Line Number : 2982
Built As : Boeing 737-31S
Test Registration :
First Flight : 29.12.1997
Status : Written Off
Remarks :

Operator History :
Reg Aircraft Type Airline Delivery Date Remarks
D-ADBQ Boeing 737-31S Deutsche BA 15.01.1998
D-ADBQ Boeing 737-31S DBA 13.03.2002
5B-DBY Boeing 737-31S Helios Airways 16.04.2004 lsd, crashed into mountains near ATH 14.8.05 killing 121 people due to problems with the air supply on board

Cypriot 737 crashes in strange circumstances.

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