Should the Eastern Bypass go ahead?

murphaph · 04-08-2005 1:59pm

weehamster wrote:

But thats what the Dublin Port Tunnel for.

No, it's not. The DPT provides access for HGVs from the M1 round to the N81. The port bound M11 HGV traffic proceeds along the N11 across the East Link and into the port.

Rosser · 04-08-2005 6:20pm

Enough with the roads! Lets finish off anything underconstruction and divert most of the resources into a kick ass metro and intercity rail network. Easily the worst part of living in dublin has to be the traffic...

Thomond Pk · 04-08-2005 7:01pm

Any investment proposal linked to Donal Geany should be watched given his investment management record at Elan

http://mwprices.ft.com/custom/ft-com/interactivecharting.asp?pageNum=&company=NEW&industry=&region=&extelID=&isin=&ftep=&sedol=&FTSite=FTCOM&symb=uk%3Aelan&countrycode=uk&t=e&s2=uk&q=uk%3Aelan&osymb=uk%3Aelan&ocountrycode=uk&expanded=false&subtab=1&colMode=&time=5yr&freq=1dy&compidx=FTSE100%7E123797&indName=drg%7E171522&sid=120531

How he is still in charge of our pensions I don't know

CCOVICH · 04-08-2005 8:25pm

While it would be good to see Dublin have a complete ring road, I think the money would be better spent on public transport (DART, LUAS etc.).

SeanW · 04-08-2005 9:01pm

Could those who voted "yes" explain why they did so?

Flukey · 04-08-2005 11:20pm

It would have a bad environmental impact on Dublin Bay and all around it. IT would be better to spend that money elsewhere around the country and encourage more people away from Dublin. More should be spent on public transport too.

Victor · 04-08-2005 11:26pm

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

Far from it, my view has always been that if something is viable, let the private sector build it

But that piece of private infrastructure would be subsidised by public infrastructure in an unfair manner. There is the risk that the East link operator would maximise reveenue by maximising (non-essential) traffic. It would cost the economy, society and government to have it to the betterment of certain commuters and the shareholders (& builders).

One advantage of completing the O-ring is that in the event of disruption (West-Link

), traffic can go the other way.

DubTony · 05-08-2005 2:58am

Worth considering how much traffic on the M50 goes from the Coolock / Malahide / Santry areas to places like Tallaght, Walkinstown, Kimmage.

My wife used to work in Santry and when I dragged over to the south side she tried both the M50 and the city. At the time, 5 years ago, she found the M50 to be a full 20 minutes quicker. Not sure how that would work out today, but an eastern bypass completing a ring road would create another option, not to mention getting from Rathfarnham to East Wall.

Personally I don't support or object to an eastern bypass. But the population is going up. (I was going to say population is only going one way, but then that's what this thread is all about...right ?

) Surely, in the grand scheme of things it should be considered seriously. And before you all jump all over me, I agree that quality public transport should be given priority.

Thomond Pk · 05-08-2005 9:33am

That is a good analysis Tony it would create another option and a full cost benefit analysis of the project should be undertaken and that cost benefit analysis should be measured against a comparable level of investment in public transport infrastructure. A cost benefit analysis on the economic benefits to potential users should also be considered in light of the Goldman Sachs report into energy prices published earlier this year and this should be measured against implementation of the DTO's Platform for Change.

murphaph · 05-08-2005 1:33pm

The idea of the Eastern Bypass facilitating Coolock-Tallaght etc. commuting is crazy. It should only be built to get the HGVs and port bound traffic off the streets and as such should be heavily tolled in a manner similar to the DPT to discourage commuter use. The function of public transport is to remove cars from the streets and allow folks to get to and from work with ease. I believe the EBP has it's place-but not for a long long time.

Lennoxschips · 05-08-2005 2:28pm

This is one of the most ridiculous and pointless projects I have ever seen. It is not a bypass, it exists only to facilitate more commuters from Dublin centre to sprawling suburbs. But obviously it's a vote winner, as this poll suggests.

Public transport and proper urban planning doesn't win votes, even if it does solve / would have solved many of the problems that Dublin is currently facing.

Car culture. It's a sad state of affairs.

PandaMania · 05-08-2005 8:32pm

"I think it should be built, but not as a replacement for a decent public transport system."

I agree. If you look at the countries with the best public transport and in particular the best rail transport systems, they also have superb roads as well.

"More of everything tbh, more luas. more dart and suburban rail and more roads. infrastructure is the key to economic success,"

Indeed.

"if you build it they will come."

Well not if it is a screwball project like the Western Rail Corridor between Sligo and Limerick or similar jokes such as Knock Airport. You only build were you have the demand...then they will come.

Lennoxschips · 06-08-2005 5:50pm

I agree. If you look at the countries with the best public transport and in particular the best rail transport systems, they also have superb roads as well.

I'm not sure, I don't know of any city in Europe that has built or is either planning to build an underground motorway linking the suburbs directly to the city centre.

They don't have an underground tunnel in Paris leading from St. Denis to Place de la Concorde for example. If they built it, the thing would be so full that it would cease to be of any functional or economical use at all. What Paris did do however was build Inter-Connecting RER suburban rail tunnels to link their major stations with each other and the city centre. It was a massive success and was soon expanded.

I would suggest that people wait to see what a chaotic failure the Port Tunnel will be, and then the decision wether or not to build another one will be a complete no-brainer. But then again, our politicians are no-brainers too, so I'm not very optimistic.

murphaph · 06-08-2005 6:37pm

Lennoxschips wrote:

I'm not sure, I don't know of any city in Europe that has built or is either planning to build an underground motorway linking the suburbs directly to the city centre.

But that's not what the proposed Eastern Bypass would be. The stretch from Sandyford to the N11 would remove traffic from local streets. The tunnel from Booterstown to the port would be HGV only, free to trucks with cars being punitively tolled.

The result would be to remove HGVs from the N11 and Irishtown/Ringsend. Both areas with growing residential populations.

I'd imagine that would be a good thing to do to improve quality of life but as you say, we'll wait and see how effective this strategy is with the current DPT. I'm looking forward to seeing it's effects.

Lennoxschips · 06-08-2005 6:53pm

It would have been much cheaper to move the container port. For the price of those tunnels you could build a fine port somewhere else, and redevelop the entire docklands area for a massive profit.

Indeed, in Rotterdam and Antwerp they moved port operations further downstream and redeveloped the downtown port areas.

The HGV thign was only an excuse to build the motorway. If the port tunnel had to be built then it should have been a single carriageway construction for trucks only. But as it is they're letting cars in too, so they built a full motorway.

murphaph · 06-08-2005 8:28pm

I agree that a much better solution would have been to just move the operations to Loughshinny (nr. Balbriggan) like they looked at before and then do something pleasant with the port. Don't be surprised if after building all these roads to the port that it ups sticks and develops the land itself for a massive profit.

Thomond Pk · 06-08-2005 9:38pm

I read parts of a thesis on an examination into a potential Loughshiny relocation of Dublin Port; The thesis concluded that it would be physically possible and desireable from a quality of life point of view but that finance costs would make it financially unviable as of the year 2002. This became apparent to the author very early into the thesis and a number of issues on making the existing port more efficient were examined. The first was pumping a lot of the fuel imported to secondary locations such as aviation fuel to the airport and petrol, diesel, home heating oils to a peripheral location somewhere in West Dublin. This came in as being very revenue positive but would only work if the oil companies co-operated on a joint retention of a much reduced number of storage tanks and co-invested and co-maintained on the pipes and pumping equipment.

The second project that had potential to reduce traffic dramatically into Dublin Port was the container trans-shipment park a version of which was once proposed for 'Clonburris' west of Clondalkin, a simple scheme that envisaged most containers for the port being moved directly from the port to the park by rail and re-distributed from there, thereby reducing the amount of land required to store containers within the port. Interestingly the EU sponsored report used to justify the Port Tunnel the SILRE study done in 1997 recommended this project in tandem with the port tunnel and completion of the M50 to the M11 on a cost benefit analysis basis as they felt that costs for the Eastern Bypass even at 1997 construction prices could not be justified.

Thirdly the thesis did a land use audit of Dublin Port and found that many of the uses were more appropriate to industrial zones as the users had limited need for space within the port, examples being coal yards, car lots etc.

I think it will be very difficult to justify the Southern Leg of the Port Tunnel on a cost benefit analysis as there is now very limited industry East of Tallaght given the decline at Sandyford and Bray. I would support an extension to the N11 at UCD but beyond that the case is far from convincing.

D'Peoples Voice · 11-08-2005 1:05pm

I was all for the Eastern bypass, because I felt it could take more cars off the streets, and make it possible for City Council to construct continuous bus lanes!
But after reading this article, I'm not so sure

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000039&refer=columnist_mysak&sid=ayJzGHCtLi.s

Fred Salvucci, father of the Big Dig(the big dig is Boston's equivalent to City Council O'Connell Street works, in terms of popularity)

If you make it easier for people to use their cars by lavishing money on roads, they will. The same thing is achieved by stinting on rails and making public transportation less attractive. It would not be an exaggeration to say that the way our roads fill up confounds the experts. It's been that way for the last 50 years.

In densely populated urban areas, there can never be such a thing as traffic relief. It doesn't make a difference how much money is spent -- the Big Dig's cost ended up almost triple the $6 billion estimated in 1991 -- the roads are snarled with traffic as fast as we can build them.

DubTony · 11-08-2005 2:20pm

I'm one of those people who loves his car. But to be honest, these days it's a pain trying get anywhere, and then to find parking. Apart from using Luas to get into town I rarely use public transport. WHY? Becasue it's not convenient.

Salvucci talks about investing in public transport. He works in a city that provides this:

and this:

Add to that a regular bus service and you have what looks like a fairly decent transport system. My experience in Boston was like this:
Get a lift to the train station, get on the train, pay for the ticket on the train, get off, go to work. Coming home, I'd arrange for a lift at the far end. If I couldn't get a lift I'd leave the car there all day in the free Park & Ride car park.

The chances are the eastern by-pass will be built in some way eventually. Whether that's to the detriment of decent accessible public transport remains to be seen.

As for continuous bus lanes? HA! Nangor Rd is a perfect example of where a decent continuous bus lane, with traffic light sequences giving buses priority, could have been installed. Huge islands forcing cars to drive into bus lanes to make turns and buses pulling out into the main traffic flow? The planners are morons. The councillors are morons. We have no chance. I'm sticking with the car. There won't be another no. 75 bus till some time in October (I think). :rolleyes:

D'Peoples Voice · 12-08-2005 1:07pm

DubTony wrote:

I'm one of those people who loves his car. But to be honest, these days it's a pain trying get anywhere, and then to find parking. Apart from using Luas to get into town I rarely use public transport. WHY? Becasue it's not convenient.

But that only confuses me more!
As you say Boston has a decent public transport system, so people can make a choice between private or public transport. In Dublin, we are deprived of that!
So the question we have to ask is, do we build a public transport system first or after we invest in private transport!

Should the Eastern Bypass go ahead?

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