Should the Eastern Bypass go ahead?

murphaph · 05-07-2005 12:51pm #1

Now that the SE Motorway is open, I wonder what people think of the Eastern Bypass proposal. I was completely unaware until yesterday that the proposed motorway would only be tunneled from the port to Sandymount and would run overground from there along a stretch of mostly greenspace which has been reserved by the various local authorities as far as Sandyford. It's actually possible to work out the route from aerial photography (there's only one clear way from the Sandyford Interchange to Sandymount). It passes right beside (and through!) some expen$ive property, probably driving the cost right up, nevermind the tunneling operation itself. There has been space reserved at the N11 for an interchange there, right beside the Radisson I think it is. There will definitely be property demolitions required-though not that many for such a long road right through suburbia!

On the whole I'm opposed to the proposal, but I could see the merits in it if it wasn't going to cost such an excruciating amount of money. I dare say the rich and beautiful of the areas this motorway would pass through will hold it up in court for a long time anyway.

Opinions?

jlang · 05-07-2005 1:07pm

Not soon, but I'd expect to see it built in the next 20-30 years . I'd hate to see them build houses on the alignment that has been preserved pretty well. Every time it's mentioned it becomes extremely controversial and it will be excruciatingly expensive, so I say hold off as long as possible before bringing it up in political company.

weehamster · 05-07-2005 1:30pm

NO. Whats the point of it?

The M50 is the Dublin By-pass. That what its purpose was suppose to be. But as we all know all too well, that’s not what it’s mainly used for. Its mainly been used for commuting. Why? Because there is no alternative way to commute around Dublin. Take away the commuters and the m50 is freed up

The Eastern by-pass would cost around €1.5b to €2b and would do nothing to reduce the number of people commuting by car. It’s a by-pass which means its by-pass Dublin.

I am sick and tired of the Irish attitude of building more roads will help to reduce traffic congestion.

The only way to reduce traffic is to get ride of it. And Rail is a proper alternative to the car. Rail is designed for commuting. Roads are designed for moving goods and services. The fact that we can commute on the is a secondary effect.

Now if Irish Rail's Dublin Rail Plan (DRP) was built, we would have a DART train going from Kildare, Maynooth, North of Dunboyne, Drogheda, Dublin Airport and all bringing the commuter right into the heart of Dublin with no Jams etc…with each line carrying far more passengers than the M50 ever could. And all for €3.4billion.

The DRP (especially the Interconnector section) is by far the most important transport project in the entire Greater Dublin Area. Its more far important than the Eastern By-pass, The outer Orbital Route, the single line, 5 stop €5b Metro, or any Luas extension.

It is sad that the DRP is delayed because of very expensive and non-effective project as mentioned above.
:mad:

enterprise · 05-07-2005 1:52pm

Umm interesting alrite.

I don't think it should be built either. To much cost and the M50 can do the job. One point. Looking at the map I see part of the road has already been built!! From the M50 at Sandyford up to the Upper and Lower Kilmacud Roads (Where the red circle is on the map).

murphaph · 05-07-2005 2:05pm

enterprise wrote:

Umm interesting alrite.

I don't think it should be built either. To much cost and the M50 can do the job. One point. Looking at the map I see part of the road has already been built!! From the M50 at Sandyford up to the Upper and Lower Kilmacud Roads (Where the red circle is on the map).

Interesting, is it built to motorway standard or is it single carriageway with room for another carriageway to be added later?

Blaster99 · 05-07-2005 2:13pm

It's built to Irish standard so a traffic light every 10ft, all badly setup to ensure the most gridlock possible.

As for the Irish attitude of building roads, where are these roads you speak of?

Nuttzz · 05-07-2005 3:05pm

enterprise wrote:

the M50 can do the job. .

you havent sat on the M50 for a while then

I think it should be built, but not as a replacement for a decent public transport system.

More of everything tbh, more luas. more dart and suburban rail and more roads. infrastructure is the key to economic success, if you build it they will come.

murphaph · 05-07-2005 3:41pm

I tend to agree with Nuttzz,
The solution to gridlock is not to build roads everywhere but that doens't mean we don't need strategic trunk roads to take traffic off local streets where appropriate. The cities with the best public transport often have excellent roads infrastructure too. Worth thinking about and I'm not a motorist (anymore!).

I originally thought it was a tunnel all the way from Sandyford to Dublin Port and that cost would not be justifiable under any circumstances, but the actual tunnel would probably cost little more than the one currently under construction. The aim would be to direct HGVs from the south/southeast to the Port without further straining the M50.

I don't think the cost is justifiable for some time-certainly not before a much more comprehensive rail based public transport system is up and running, which will be some time, if ever. :mad:

This one could run and run.

enterprise · 05-07-2005 5:11pm

Nuttzz wrote:

you havent sat on the M50 for a while then

But thats where your wrong! I've driven on the M50 and found it acceptable.

Flukey · 05-07-2005 6:38pm

I don't think it is really needed. There are other things that can be done to reduce congestion, as people have said. There should be better public transport, a removal of tolls at the West Link and more jobs outside the Dublin area to reduce the amount of people having to go into Dublin, amongst other things.

DubTony · 05-07-2005 7:42pm

As soon as the port tunnel is open, every truck coming from anywhere outside Dublin to the port will have to use the M50. When the Chapelizod by-pass was opened and trucks were forced to use it after limits were placed in Inchicore and Ballyfermot, the N7 to N4 section of the M50 became heavily congested.

This congestion will now extend to the M1 interchange as trucks are forced to use the tunnel. While I haven't seen that many HGVs using the N11, the few that do will then have to travel a further 50 odd kilometres to get to the port(I know most use Rosslare). We've already been told that the upgraded M50 will be unable to handle the volume.

The eastern bypass is inevitable. It will be built sometime. But with this country's planning to completion record, most of us will probably never see it.

Nuttzz · 05-07-2005 11:04pm

enterprise wrote:

But thats where your wrong! I've driven on the M50 and found it acceptable.

maybe at 2am but not at peak times

shltter · 05-07-2005 11:24pm

the port tunnel is going to make the M50 even more of a car park than it already is

all trucks leaving the port will have to use the port tunnell even if they are heading South

they will then have to drive all the way around an already congested M50 which will soon have lane closures to facilitate the upgrade to 3 lanes so that will go on for about 10 years

they will all have to queue up at the toll bridge on the M50

and lets not forget when these trucks come in 6:30 to 7 in the morning they should arrive at the toll bridge at the M50 bang on peak time

they then will join the queue to get on to the red cow the N7 N8 etc etc

and lets not forget the disaster it will make of the M1 M50 junction where every truck heading for the port will now have to head to

BrianD · 06-07-2005 12:32am

Absolutely NOT...it will destroy Dublin Bay and is simply not worth it. The original route is supposed to run along the coast as far as Booterstown and then inland. Actually, now that I think about, absolutely no way!

weehamster · 06-07-2005 12:49am

Im Sorry. Im totally lost.

Can the people who said yes please explane what is the eastern by-pass for?

Thomond Pk · 06-07-2005 2:09am

DubTony wrote:

The eastern bypass is inevitable. It will be built sometime. But with this country's planning to completion record, most of us will probably never see it.

Planning is a good clue but the Eastern Bypass will not ever happen in its current format because very recently acquired superior European regulations have meant that an Irish government lacks the power to grant permission for it on its present alignment.

The Eastern bypass would constitute the greatest instance of pouring concrete for the sake of it in Irish history, what is required is that the full powers of congestion pricing are employed on the highly welcome Dublin Port Tunnel to ensure that freight keeps moving. The greatest threat to freight in this country is commuter traffic, the greatest cause of commuter traffic is the absence of a proper public transport system, we are truely the only Country in Northern Europe for which the penny has never dropped in this regard. Ireland is surely outside the Euro zone when it comes to sensible transport.

Victor · 06-07-2005 2:31am

I can see some argument for it, however I think the most important part is keeping the route clear so it can be construted.

Given that Booterstown and Sandymount flood every now and again and this is only likely to get worse with global warming, it should be noted that it could be incorporated into a sea wall. You could also incorporate a railway to the south docks and or use it as a means of bypassing the levelcrossings in Sandymount (or even allow the existing railway to be completely rebuilt, whether up or down) to the city centre or add a tram line.

I would strongly like to see it being kept as an express truck / bus route.

Thomond Pk · 06-07-2005 9:34am

The port tunnel was sold at City Councillor level as the project that would eliminate the need for the Eastern bypass; given the make-up of the Council it will be a very long time before DCC sanction it much less make any contribution to it. The further linkage between the Eastern By-pass as the preferred route of DLR co co to ferry waste to the proposed incinerator at Ringsend is another indicator of the level of opposition is likely to face.

When one looks at the current Dun Laoghaire Baths project one starts to get a little understanding of just how difficult it is to build unpopular projects on the South Dublin Coast. The opposition to this project the last time it was formally proposed was possibly the largest planning objection coalition ever assembled and a lot more of them are legal professionals than the last time.

The maximum route possible for this route would be Sandyford to the N11 at Fosters Avenue (UCD) after that it would be mired in legal difficulty for a decade before all legal challenges were cleared and that is presuming that the Department of Finance were to sanction it, which is highly unlikely given the NRA's track record with public funds.

Bill McH · 06-07-2005 9:56am

Thomond Pk wrote:

The port tunnel was sold at City Councillor level as the project that would eliminate the need for the Eastern bypass; given the make-up of the Council it will be a very long time before DCC sanction it much less make any contribution to it. The further linkage between the Eastern By-pass as the preferred route of DLR co co to ferry waste to the proposed incinerator at Ringsend is another indicator of the level of opposition is likely to face.

When one looks at the current Dun Laoghaire Baths project one starts to get a little understanding of just how difficult it is to build unpopular projects on the South Dublin Coast. The opposition to this project the last time it was formally proposed was possibly the largest planning objection coalition ever assembled and a lot more of them are legal professionals than the last time.

The maximum route possible for this route would be Sandyford to the N11 at Fosters Avenue (UCD) after that it would be mired in legal difficulty for a decade before all legal challenges were cleared and that is presuming that the Department of Finance were to sanction it, which is highly unlikely given the NRA's track record with public funds.

That's a very interesting post, and probably entirely on the mark.

The thing that puzzles me is this: there was an article in the Irish Times the other day about the Dept. of Finance getting worried about the cost of Minister Cullen's 10 year plan. The article hinted that it was the cost of projects like the Eastern By-Pass which was the really big worry.
(Perhaps someone on the board has access to Ireland.com - it was an interesting article)

Now if this thing isn't going to go ahead, at least for a long time, why is it being included in the plan, especially if it means that necessary public transport projects don't get the go ahead.

I mean surely at this stage it is time to start putting a lot of money into public transport. It's not a big ask given the amount of money which has been put into the roads.

spacetweek · 06-07-2005 11:44am

I'm not totally clear on this; when the Port Tunnel is opened, is it mandatory for trucks to use it? Will trucks no longer be permitted to head south across the East link, on the grounds that they are excluded from the city centre? Surely not? This would make the East link practically obsolete.

spacetweek · 06-07-2005 12:21pm

Bill McH wrote:

The thing that puzzles me is this: there was an article in the Irish Times the other day about the Dept. of Finance getting worried about the cost of Minister Cullen's 10 year plan. The article hinted that it was the cost of projects like the Eastern By-Pass which was the really big worry.
...
I mean surely at this stage it is time to start putting a lot of money into public transport. It's not a big ask given the amount of money which has been put into the roads.

Absolutely. I can think of many roads projects which could probably be put on the long finger in favour of redirecting the funds at the sh!tlist of public transport projects that need to be completed nationwide. Have any of you checked out the project schedule at the back of A Platform For Change? It makes for depressing reading. Very few of them are complete or even underway.

Examples of projects which we should long-finger (put off by 5-10 years):
-M40 (Dublin Outer Orbital)
-Eastern Bypass
-Rural dual carraigeway sections, e.g. N7 Nenagh-Mountrath, N8 Cullahil-Fermoy, N9 Carlow-Waterford
-Expensive sections of West Coast Rail (i.e. Tuam-Sligo)
-Dunboyne-Navan rail

These should be dropped in the short term in favour of tackling the more hardcore cases.

Thomond Pk · 06-07-2005 7:22pm

spacetweek wrote:

I'm not totally clear on this; when the Port Tunnel is opened, is it mandatory for trucks to use it? Will trucks no longer be permitted to head south across the East link, on the grounds that they are excluded from the city centre? Surely not? This would make the East link practically obsolete.

You are almost correct,

Trucks cannot enter the postcodes of Dublin 1, 2, 7 or 8 (i.e. the area within the canals) unless they can produce documentary evidence of making a delivery within these areas within a reasonable timeframe of say an hour. As Strand Road and the Eastlink bridge are both in Dublin 4 or outside the Canals HGVs will be able to use this route.

Macy · 07-07-2005 9:27am

spacetweek wrote:

Examples of projects which we should long-finger (put off by 5-10 years):
-M40 (Dublin Outer Orbital)
-Eastern Bypass
-Rural dual carraigeway sections, e.g. N7 Nenagh-Mountrath, N8 Cullahil-Fermoy, N9 Carlow-Waterford
-Expensive sections of West Coast Rail (i.e. Tuam-Sligo)
-Dunboyne-Navan rail

God forbid we should build infrastructure in advance of when it's needed :rolleyes:

Road and rail infrastructure that will be needed in the future should be built now while we have the money. There should be a focus on rail transport, but reducing the miles travelled by HGV's shouldn't be ignored either. Start projects like this now, by the time their through planning, objections, tree hugger camps and building delays they will be required.

Thomond Pk · 07-07-2005 11:50pm

The easiest way not to build the appropriate infrastructure when it is needed is to build 'gold-plated' projects that are not needed instead.

Can anyone make a genuinely convincing specific case of support for the Eastern bypass beyond 'we need infrastructure in general'?

Because no-one has ever convinced me that the Eastern by-pass is anything other than an excuse to pour an obscene amount of concrete.

On per Euro basis vis-a - vis every other project this one fails miserably, I challenge a good civils man/woman to prove me wrong based upon the number of people moved or taking one person equating to 925 kgs of freight.

strassenwolf · 04-08-2005 12:37pm

Irish Independent wrote:

Fund has offered to buy Port Tunnel

THE National Pension Reserve Fund offered to buy the Dublin Port Tunnel and finance the building of an eastern ring road across Dublin Bay, but it has not received any positive response from the Government.

The Fund, which receives one per cent of national income (GNP) each year to help pay for future public sector pensions, has been criticised for not investing in the Irish economy. The Fund is now worth €13bn and has recently moved into foreign property investment to reduce its dependence on equities.

Last March the Fund's chairman, businessman Donal Geaney, told the Dáil Public Accounts Committee that it was hard to find Irish projects big enough, or with sufficient income stream, to meet the Fund's requirements. The radical suggestion to buy the €800m Tunnel and finance what would be Ireland's most expensive roadway was seen as a way around this problem.

Users of the Port Tunnel will pay tolls and an eastern by-pass to complete the M50 ring, much of which would be under the seabed, would also probably be a toll road. The pension fund could use this income stream to raise a bond on international markets which would eventually be used to pay pensions after 2025.

"It is a bit like an annuity to pay for an ordinary pension," one executive said. "The Exchequer might not get the whole cost of the Tunnel back, but it would be a significant amount of it."

Opposition politicians and some economists have questioned the outflow of so much money into overseas investments by the Fund. At the end of last year, the Fund held €118m in Irish equities, but that was only one per cent of its total holdings. Almost €9bn is in overseas equities, representing 76pc of the total.

With returns on traditional investments like government bonds so low, the Fund has moved into commercial property, committing €250m to property-backed investments in the USA, Germany and Britain, among others.

Last night, politicians expressed surprise that there had not been a more positive response to the Fund's offer. "We would like to see the Fund investing in Irish infrastructure and I wish the Government would examine this offer or bring forward suitable projects itself," said Fine Gael spokesperson on transport, Olivia Mitchell TD.

Brendan Keenan

We don't need this thing. But it seems to be causing everything to stall because the DOF are worried about the cost of it.

So I suppose if the NPRF finance it, that frees up lots of money for public transport.

Doesn't it?

Zaph0d · 04-08-2005 12:47pm

Anyone else worried at the National Pension Reserve Fund deciding which infrastrucrture projects are built based on which ones they choose to invest in? This type of power was never envisaged when they were created.

murphaph · 04-08-2005 1:01pm

Zaph0d wrote:

Anyone else worried at the National Pension Reserve Fund deciding which infrastrucrture projects are built based on which ones they choose to invest in?

Yes. We know the RoI would be relatively high on the Eastern Bypass in comparison to say, the Interconnector.The one which would be better for the people today probably wouldn't be better for the NPRF's agenda. We would see investment in tolled roads only I would imagine, given that pubic transport infrastructure rarely has a positive rate of return in pure cash terms. There is the flip side of course. It is undoubtedly better for the state in the guise of the NPRF to build and operate profitable toll roads than private operators profiteering from them. It's a pickle alright.

weehamster · 04-08-2005 1:03pm

I have already asked this question and nobody gave me an answer so I'll ask it again.

WHAT IS THE EASTERN BY-PASS FOR?

D'Peoples Voice · 04-08-2005 1:16pm

Zaph0d wrote:

Anyone else worried at the National Pension Reserve Fund deciding which infrastrucrture projects are built based on which ones they choose to invest in?

Far from it, my view has always been that if something is viable, let the private sector build it( I know the National Pension reserve Fund is state backed, but lets treat them as a private investor for now). Let them put their(our) money where their mouth is, if they get rewarded for taking on the risk, so be it!
The public sector, or the government, on the other hand is there to see that an overall balance of needs is met(both Dublin and Nationwide).
Therefore if the government see the private sector wishing to invest in crazy schemes like the Eastern Bypass, let them off. The government should then look at what in their Platform for Change document is not currently being planned, and start filling that gap now.
Net result, all that was proposed in Platform for Change gets built.

For so long different projects both in public and private transport have not been built because of lack of funding, yet you can't help but feel if the government were braver, they would have "sold off" a lot of road projects and been able to build a lot more public transport.
To finish, please can I have a quick & reliable means of public transport from Rathfarnham to East Wall every morning and evening! What wise guy chose to put the word "Quality" in "Quality Bus Corridors"?

murphaph · 04-08-2005 1:33pm

weehamster wrote:

WHAT IS THE EASTERN BY-PASS FOR?

I believe it's designed to provide more direct access to Dublin Port from the South East. Not really a bypass in the conventional sense. I imagine the toll would be very expensive (c. €5) in comparison to West-Link.

weehamster · 04-08-2005 1:36pm

murphaph wrote:

I believe it's designed to provide more direct access to Dublin Port from the South East. Not really a bypass in the conventional sense. I imagine the toll would be very expensive (c. €5) in comparison to West-Link.

But thats what the Dublin Port Tunnel for.

murphaph · 04-08-2005 1:59pm

weehamster wrote:

But thats what the Dublin Port Tunnel for.

No, it's not. The DPT provides access for HGVs from the M1 round to the N81. The port bound M11 HGV traffic proceeds along the N11 across the East Link and into the port.

Rosser · 04-08-2005 6:20pm

Enough with the roads! Lets finish off anything underconstruction and divert most of the resources into a kick ass metro and intercity rail network. Easily the worst part of living in dublin has to be the traffic...

Thomond Pk · 04-08-2005 7:01pm

Any investment proposal linked to Donal Geany should be watched given his investment management record at Elan

http://mwprices.ft.com/custom/ft-com/interactivecharting.asp?pageNum=&company=NEW&industry=&region=&extelID=&isin=&ftep=&sedol=&FTSite=FTCOM&symb=uk%3Aelan&countrycode=uk&t=e&s2=uk&q=uk%3Aelan&osymb=uk%3Aelan&ocountrycode=uk&expanded=false&subtab=1&colMode=&time=5yr&freq=1dy&compidx=FTSE100%7E123797&indName=drg%7E171522&sid=120531

How he is still in charge of our pensions I don't know

CCOVICH · 04-08-2005 8:25pm

While it would be good to see Dublin have a complete ring road, I think the money would be better spent on public transport (DART, LUAS etc.).

SeanW · 04-08-2005 9:01pm

Could those who voted "yes" explain why they did so?

Flukey · 04-08-2005 11:20pm

It would have a bad environmental impact on Dublin Bay and all around it. IT would be better to spend that money elsewhere around the country and encourage more people away from Dublin. More should be spent on public transport too.

Victor · 04-08-2005 11:26pm

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

Far from it, my view has always been that if something is viable, let the private sector build it

But that piece of private infrastructure would be subsidised by public infrastructure in an unfair manner. There is the risk that the East link operator would maximise reveenue by maximising (non-essential) traffic. It would cost the economy, society and government to have it to the betterment of certain commuters and the shareholders (& builders).

One advantage of completing the O-ring is that in the event of disruption (West-Link

), traffic can go the other way.

DubTony · 05-08-2005 2:58am

Worth considering how much traffic on the M50 goes from the Coolock / Malahide / Santry areas to places like Tallaght, Walkinstown, Kimmage.

My wife used to work in Santry and when I dragged over to the south side she tried both the M50 and the city. At the time, 5 years ago, she found the M50 to be a full 20 minutes quicker. Not sure how that would work out today, but an eastern bypass completing a ring road would create another option, not to mention getting from Rathfarnham to East Wall.

Personally I don't support or object to an eastern bypass. But the population is going up. (I was going to say population is only going one way, but then that's what this thread is all about...right ?

) Surely, in the grand scheme of things it should be considered seriously. And before you all jump all over me, I agree that quality public transport should be given priority.

Thomond Pk · 05-08-2005 9:33am

That is a good analysis Tony it would create another option and a full cost benefit analysis of the project should be undertaken and that cost benefit analysis should be measured against a comparable level of investment in public transport infrastructure. A cost benefit analysis on the economic benefits to potential users should also be considered in light of the Goldman Sachs report into energy prices published earlier this year and this should be measured against implementation of the DTO's Platform for Change.

murphaph · 05-08-2005 1:33pm

The idea of the Eastern Bypass facilitating Coolock-Tallaght etc. commuting is crazy. It should only be built to get the HGVs and port bound traffic off the streets and as such should be heavily tolled in a manner similar to the DPT to discourage commuter use. The function of public transport is to remove cars from the streets and allow folks to get to and from work with ease. I believe the EBP has it's place-but not for a long long time.

Lennoxschips · 05-08-2005 2:28pm

This is one of the most ridiculous and pointless projects I have ever seen. It is not a bypass, it exists only to facilitate more commuters from Dublin centre to sprawling suburbs. But obviously it's a vote winner, as this poll suggests.

Public transport and proper urban planning doesn't win votes, even if it does solve / would have solved many of the problems that Dublin is currently facing.

Car culture. It's a sad state of affairs.

PandaMania · 05-08-2005 8:32pm

"I think it should be built, but not as a replacement for a decent public transport system."

I agree. If you look at the countries with the best public transport and in particular the best rail transport systems, they also have superb roads as well.

"More of everything tbh, more luas. more dart and suburban rail and more roads. infrastructure is the key to economic success,"

Indeed.

"if you build it they will come."

Well not if it is a screwball project like the Western Rail Corridor between Sligo and Limerick or similar jokes such as Knock Airport. You only build were you have the demand...then they will come.

Lennoxschips · 06-08-2005 5:50pm

I agree. If you look at the countries with the best public transport and in particular the best rail transport systems, they also have superb roads as well.

I'm not sure, I don't know of any city in Europe that has built or is either planning to build an underground motorway linking the suburbs directly to the city centre.

They don't have an underground tunnel in Paris leading from St. Denis to Place de la Concorde for example. If they built it, the thing would be so full that it would cease to be of any functional or economical use at all. What Paris did do however was build Inter-Connecting RER suburban rail tunnels to link their major stations with each other and the city centre. It was a massive success and was soon expanded.

I would suggest that people wait to see what a chaotic failure the Port Tunnel will be, and then the decision wether or not to build another one will be a complete no-brainer. But then again, our politicians are no-brainers too, so I'm not very optimistic.

murphaph · 06-08-2005 6:37pm

Lennoxschips wrote:

I'm not sure, I don't know of any city in Europe that has built or is either planning to build an underground motorway linking the suburbs directly to the city centre.

But that's not what the proposed Eastern Bypass would be. The stretch from Sandyford to the N11 would remove traffic from local streets. The tunnel from Booterstown to the port would be HGV only, free to trucks with cars being punitively tolled.

The result would be to remove HGVs from the N11 and Irishtown/Ringsend. Both areas with growing residential populations.

I'd imagine that would be a good thing to do to improve quality of life but as you say, we'll wait and see how effective this strategy is with the current DPT. I'm looking forward to seeing it's effects.

Lennoxschips · 06-08-2005 6:53pm

It would have been much cheaper to move the container port. For the price of those tunnels you could build a fine port somewhere else, and redevelop the entire docklands area for a massive profit.

Indeed, in Rotterdam and Antwerp they moved port operations further downstream and redeveloped the downtown port areas.

The HGV thign was only an excuse to build the motorway. If the port tunnel had to be built then it should have been a single carriageway construction for trucks only. But as it is they're letting cars in too, so they built a full motorway.

murphaph · 06-08-2005 8:28pm

I agree that a much better solution would have been to just move the operations to Loughshinny (nr. Balbriggan) like they looked at before and then do something pleasant with the port. Don't be surprised if after building all these roads to the port that it ups sticks and develops the land itself for a massive profit.

Thomond Pk · 06-08-2005 9:38pm

I read parts of a thesis on an examination into a potential Loughshiny relocation of Dublin Port; The thesis concluded that it would be physically possible and desireable from a quality of life point of view but that finance costs would make it financially unviable as of the year 2002. This became apparent to the author very early into the thesis and a number of issues on making the existing port more efficient were examined. The first was pumping a lot of the fuel imported to secondary locations such as aviation fuel to the airport and petrol, diesel, home heating oils to a peripheral location somewhere in West Dublin. This came in as being very revenue positive but would only work if the oil companies co-operated on a joint retention of a much reduced number of storage tanks and co-invested and co-maintained on the pipes and pumping equipment.

The second project that had potential to reduce traffic dramatically into Dublin Port was the container trans-shipment park a version of which was once proposed for 'Clonburris' west of Clondalkin, a simple scheme that envisaged most containers for the port being moved directly from the port to the park by rail and re-distributed from there, thereby reducing the amount of land required to store containers within the port. Interestingly the EU sponsored report used to justify the Port Tunnel the SILRE study done in 1997 recommended this project in tandem with the port tunnel and completion of the M50 to the M11 on a cost benefit analysis basis as they felt that costs for the Eastern Bypass even at 1997 construction prices could not be justified.

Thirdly the thesis did a land use audit of Dublin Port and found that many of the uses were more appropriate to industrial zones as the users had limited need for space within the port, examples being coal yards, car lots etc.

I think it will be very difficult to justify the Southern Leg of the Port Tunnel on a cost benefit analysis as there is now very limited industry East of Tallaght given the decline at Sandyford and Bray. I would support an extension to the N11 at UCD but beyond that the case is far from convincing.

D'Peoples Voice · 11-08-2005 1:05pm

I was all for the Eastern bypass, because I felt it could take more cars off the streets, and make it possible for City Council to construct continuous bus lanes!
But after reading this article, I'm not so sure

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000039&refer=columnist_mysak&sid=ayJzGHCtLi.s

Fred Salvucci, father of the Big Dig(the big dig is Boston's equivalent to City Council O'Connell Street works, in terms of popularity)

If you make it easier for people to use their cars by lavishing money on roads, they will. The same thing is achieved by stinting on rails and making public transportation less attractive. It would not be an exaggeration to say that the way our roads fill up confounds the experts. It's been that way for the last 50 years.

In densely populated urban areas, there can never be such a thing as traffic relief. It doesn't make a difference how much money is spent -- the Big Dig's cost ended up almost triple the $6 billion estimated in 1991 -- the roads are snarled with traffic as fast as we can build them.

DubTony · 11-08-2005 2:20pm

I'm one of those people who loves his car. But to be honest, these days it's a pain trying get anywhere, and then to find parking. Apart from using Luas to get into town I rarely use public transport. WHY? Becasue it's not convenient.

Salvucci talks about investing in public transport. He works in a city that provides this:

and this:

Add to that a regular bus service and you have what looks like a fairly decent transport system. My experience in Boston was like this:
Get a lift to the train station, get on the train, pay for the ticket on the train, get off, go to work. Coming home, I'd arrange for a lift at the far end. If I couldn't get a lift I'd leave the car there all day in the free Park & Ride car park.

The chances are the eastern by-pass will be built in some way eventually. Whether that's to the detriment of decent accessible public transport remains to be seen.

As for continuous bus lanes? HA! Nangor Rd is a perfect example of where a decent continuous bus lane, with traffic light sequences giving buses priority, could have been installed. Huge islands forcing cars to drive into bus lanes to make turns and buses pulling out into the main traffic flow? The planners are morons. The councillors are morons. We have no chance. I'm sticking with the car. There won't be another no. 75 bus till some time in October (I think). :rolleyes:

D'Peoples Voice · 12-08-2005 1:07pm

DubTony wrote:

I'm one of those people who loves his car. But to be honest, these days it's a pain trying get anywhere, and then to find parking. Apart from using Luas to get into town I rarely use public transport. WHY? Becasue it's not convenient.

But that only confuses me more!
As you say Boston has a decent public transport system, so people can make a choice between private or public transport. In Dublin, we are deprived of that!
So the question we have to ask is, do we build a public transport system first or after we invest in private transport!

Should the Eastern Bypass go ahead?

Should the Eastern Bypass go ahead? 31 votes

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