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A Gaeltacht in Dublin?

2456

Comments

  • #52
    Grudaire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    There should be no Gaeltacht areas at all, the language should live or die on its merits without any state support. All state funding should be withdrawn from Udaras as well.

    Wonderful lofty ideal - but that assumes that English isn't state supported. Arguably the state offers far far more jobs for English speakers.
    How dare they support a language like that - is there a need for anything more than a few Irish-English translators in most departments?

    Of course there's practical issues with my argument, but the Government comes from the position that Irish is equal to English - and to deal with the inequalities that exist there is a need to support the language.


    Anyway on behalf of myself as a Gaelgeoir - I have no problem with optional Irish for the leaving cert - as long as it is matched by optional English. I wouldn't want us to be forcing any language on anyone who didn't want it ;)


    Also @Kinski - I'm afraid to ask what movies you entertain yourself with :P


  • #53
    Kinski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,555 ✭✭✭Kinski


    Cliste wrote: »
    Also @Kinski - I'm afraid to ask what movies you entertain yourself with :P

    Haha, most definitely not those ones!:p I'm off to watch my DVD of Bob Quinn's Poitín before anyone else assumes I have base tastes...


  • #54
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,476 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Cliste wrote: »
    Wonderful lofty ideal - but that assumes that English isn't state supported. Arguably the state offers far far more jobs for English speakers.

    Why do you think that is?

    The US doesn't have an official language. I think you'll find that they'll expect you to have good English skills to take a government job - because that's the language the vast majority of people speak...
    How dare they support a language like that

    It's not supporting a language, any more than you are supporting the English language by using it here. It's just a recognition of reality.
    Of course there's practical issues with my argument, but the Government comes from the position that Irish is equal to English - and to deal with the inequalities that exist there is a need to support the language.

    The concept that Irish is, or will ever be, equal in usage to English is fantasy.
    Can we finally drop the pretense after 90 years of expensive, failed, damaging, language policy?
    Anyway on behalf of myself as a Gaelgeoir - I have no problem with optional Irish for the leaving cert - as long as it is matched by optional English.

    No objection there... after all doing the Leaving isn't compulsory, so making any subject compulsory within the Leaving is stupid.

    Scrap the cap!



  • #55
    MysticalRain
    Registered Users Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭MysticalRain


    Cliste wrote: »
    Anyway on behalf of myself as a Gaelgeoir - I have no problem with optional Irish for the leaving cert - as long as it is matched by optional English. I wouldn't want us to be forcing any language on anyone who didn't want it ;)
    :P
    English is already optional for the LC. Irish is the only subject that is legally required to be taught for the leaving cert.


  • #56
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    It could be argued that the cultural identity in this country today has not "emerged organically from people's natural interests and proclivities", but rather has been shaped by hundreds of years of British rule. This is not an anti-British, 'up the Ra' type, remark, merely pointing out that many aspects of Irish life today have had external influences and did not emerge organically. Indeed, the decline in the language was imposed by an authoritarian government, that in London. I personally have no issue with present day governments of this country redressing the balance, so it speak, by promoting aspects of Irish culture (ie. those emerged "organically from people's natural interests and proclivities" before a foreign power tried to eradicate them) such as the language. Again, this is not an Irish v British thing, but instead recognising that political circumstance has had a major influence on the success of the Irish language (or lack thereof) so the state washing it hands of it now is not "letting the language evolve (or die) organically".


  • #57
    Grudaire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    MysticalRain wrote: »
    English is already optional for the LC. Irish is the only subject that is legally required to be taught for the leaving cert.

    I don't remember being given an option - were you given one?
    ninja900 wrote: »
    Why do you think that is?

    The US doesn't have an official language. I think you'll find that they'll expect you to have good English skills to take a government job - because that's the language the vast majority of people speak...

    It's the first time I've seen America used as a benchmark to follow on this site :pac:
    Ironically the Hawaiian language has state protection, and is an official language of the state.
    ninja900 wrote: »
    It's not supporting a language, any more than you are supporting the English language by using it here. It's just a recognition of reality.

    The concept that Irish is, or will ever be, equal in usage to English is fantasy.
    Can we finally drop the pretense after 90 years of expensive, failed, damaging, language policy?

    Actually I just find the debate on the merits of the Irish language in Teach na nGealt a little one sided ;)

    I don't think that anyone expects it to be equal in usage - equal can mean lots of things. I would have done the Driver Theory test in Irish only it has a reputation for the translations not actually making sense.
    At the moment it is pretty inconceivable for someone to be able to survive in Ireland only through Irish.
    ninja900 wrote: »
    No objection there... after all doing the Leaving isn't compulsory, so making any subject compulsory within the Leaving is stupid.

    Amen - although I would still be in favor of a grounding in Maths and a language.


  • #58
    MysticalRain
    Registered Users Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭MysticalRain


    Cliste wrote: »
    I don't remember being given an option - were you given one?
    Dropping English was never a consideration for me at the time. I'm just saying that English is an optional subject, whereas Irish isn't. It might limit your choice of university courses, but if you really want to drop English, you can do so.


  • #59
    Kinski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,555 ✭✭✭Kinski


    MysticalRain wrote: »
    Dropping English was never a consideration for me at the time. I'm just saying that English is an optional subject, whereas Irish isn't. It might limit your choice of university courses, but if you really want to drop English, you can do so.

    There is no requirement to actually sit Irish for the LC either, but students must study it until they leave school. However, the matriculation requirements for the former NUI universities, along with the policies of individual schools, mean that dropping any (or all) of the English/Maths/Irish trio is a non-starter for most students who want to proceed to third-level.


  • #60
    opti0nal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 892 ✭✭✭opti0nal


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    I personally have no issue with present day governments of this country redressing the balance, so it speak, by promoting aspects of Irish culture (ie. those emerged "organically from people's natural interests and proclivities" before a foreign power tried to eradicate them) such as the language.
    Those might sound ok, in theory, but at what human and financial cost? Unknown amounts of money wasted on services in Irish, thousands of kids forced to learn Irish against their will.


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  • #61
    Irishheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15 ✭Irishheart


    deise go deo wrote: »
    The Government are planing on introducing a 'Gaeltacht Bill' Later this year to give statutry effect to the 20 year strategy for the Irish Language. Under the bill, Areas outside of the traditional Gaeltacht could recieve Gaeltacht status.

    Minister welcomes Government decision regarding Gaeltacht Bill




    Already people in some areas outside the Gaeltacht are thinking of benefits that gaining Gaeltacht status for their own area could bring.


    Clondalkin Could be Dublins First Official Gaeltacht
    .


    What would you make of it if someone proposed turning where you live into a Gaeltacht?
    I would love it.I speak Irish all the time to everyone in shops even if its how are you.
    I think one of the best ideas ever.The Irish school in Clondalkin is well known for their really good grades in all subjects through Irish and they get high grades in English also.


  • #62
    starviewadams
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,116 ✭✭✭starviewadams


    If Clondalkin turns into a gaeltacht does that mean that every pub in the village will have cheap pints,as opposed to just Aras Chronain that does now?If so then I'm all for it!


  • #63
    opti0nal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 892 ✭✭✭opti0nal


    Irishheart wrote: »
    .
    I think one of the best ideas ever.
    Redesignating, as Gaeltacht, English speaking neighbourhoods, with a wholly non Gaelic lifestyle is certainly an ingenious way to cover up the failure of the Gaelic revival.


  • #64
    FunkyDa2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 254 ✭✭FunkyDa2


    http://www.geograph.ie/photo/332084

    The original Dublin Gaeltacht. :)


  • #65
    opti0nal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 892 ✭✭✭opti0nal


    FunkyDa2 wrote: »
    http://www.geograph.ie/photo/332084
    The original Dublin Gaeltacht. :)
    It could be very revealing to know how much Irish is spoken there now, the road itself, with its English style houses and illegally parked cars certainly does not evoke an image of the traditional Irish way of life that the GaleGoers want to revive.


  • #66
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    opti0nal wrote: »
    It could be very revealing to know how much Irish is spoken there now, the road itself, with its English style houses and illegally parked cars certainly does not evoke an image of the traditional Irish way of life that the GaleGoers want to revive.
    What does this "traditional Irish way of life" that you are on about, actually involve?
    Who is calling for it?
    Who lives it today, and where are they?
    And finally, what has this strange little fantasy of yours got to do with the language?


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  • #67
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    It could be argued that the cultural identity in this country today has not "emerged organically from people's natural interests and proclivities", but rather has been shaped by hundreds of years of British rule. This is not an anti-British, 'up the Ra' type, remark, merely pointing out that many aspects of Irish life today have had external influences and did not emerge organically. Indeed, the decline in the language was imposed by an authoritarian government, that in London. I personally have no issue with present day governments of this country redressing the balance, so it speak, by promoting aspects of Irish culture (ie. those emerged "organically from people's natural interests and proclivities" before a foreign power tried to eradicate them) such as the language. Again, this is not an Irish v British thing, but instead recognising that political circumstance has had a major influence on the success of the Irish language (or lack thereof) so the state washing it hands of it now is not "letting the language evolve (or die) organically".
    I dunno, I feel it is a Irish V Brit thing, unintentionally in many cases. The language most of us speak has the cultural misfortune :) to be called English, with all the heavy weight behind that word and the E word still rankles at the back of our collective psyche a little too much I reckon.

    It also depends what you define as "organic" and for how long the process goes on. I mean the French don't have a chip on their shoulder* about those bastard Italians who influenced their romance language and killed off Gaulish by successive waves of invasion, killing and enslavement. Ditto for the Spaniards. The Scots who speak Gaelic don't have an issue that it's origins and spread was largely down to a cultural invasion by Ireland that displaced earlier "Pictish" languages. Hell even their countries name origin translates as Little Ireland(Scotia minor). If most of them even realise this.

    However we're painfully aware of all the cultural histories about our island over the last few centuries(often very one sided and/or filtered through the lens of early 20th century Irish nationalism) and that weighs heavy on both languages I feel.








    *that can be a rare sentence to write or read. :)

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • #68
    opti0nal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 892 ✭✭✭opti0nal


    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    What does this "traditional Irish way of life" that you are on about, actually involve?
    Who is calling for it?
    Who lives it today, and where are they?
    These are questions that should be put to the Irish language enthusiasts.


  • #69
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    opti0nal wrote: »
    These are questions that should be put to the Irish language enthusiasts.
    I don't know of any language revivalists ' campaigns against "English style houses and illegally parked cars". Most Irish language enthusiasts simply want to promote a language they find relevant to their heritage or identity, or people who just happen to think it's a particularly attractive language in a literary sense.


  • #70
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    opti0nal wrote: »
    These are questions that should be put to the Irish language enthusiasts.
    1. Why? It is a (so called) "Irish language enthusiast" who is actually asking the questions.
    2. Why don't you answer the questions I put to you?


  • #71
    opti0nal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 892 ✭✭✭opti0nal


    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    1. Why? It is a (so called) "Irish language enthusiast" who is actually asking the questions.
    2. Why don't you answer the questions I put to you?
    If as you imply, there is no 'Irish lifestyle', then I have no idea why Irish language enthusiasts want to restore Irish as the common tongue of Ireland.


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  • #72
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    I don't know that all enthusiasts want to restore it as the common language of Ireland.

    In any case, there is a big difference between promoting a language and promoting a lifestyle. Just because someone wants to revive a language, doesn't mean they don't want people living in architecturally modern homes who can enjoy modern lifestyles. Rather the opposite, I would have thought.


  • #73
    opti0nal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 892 ✭✭✭opti0nal


    later12 wrote: »
    I don't know that all enthusiasts want to restore it as the common language of Ireland.
    Maybe a minority don't and for them it's nice hobby as long as they don't force their choice on others. So, why the language laws and compulsory lessons for children?


  • #74
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    opti0nal wrote: »
    If as you imply, there is no 'Irish lifestyle', then I have no idea why Irish language enthusiasts want to restore Irish as the common tongue of Ireland.
    I am implying nothing, you brought up the phrase "Irish/Gaelic lifestyle" nobody else did, I am asking you to explain what it is.
    If you cannot, then that shows this is no more than some odd fantasy of yours that has no basis in reality, or to put it in simple English, a load of crap.

    You speak English, do you live a "traditional English" lifestyle?
    Another question, when you say traditional lifestyle, do you mean a 19th, or 21st century lifestyle or how about a 12th century one, there are quite a few "traditional lifestyle" eras to choose from. Mine (along with the vast majority of people living in Ireland) is the "traditional Irish lifestyle" of the late 20th and early 21st century.

    Where do you actually get this notion of changing lifestyles with Irish speaking, the only difference between people in any Irish speaking households and their English speaking neighbours that I have ever come across is the language they speak. Though maybe you know more Irish speakers than I do, so please do explain how their lifestyles differ, I'm sure people would be absolutely fascinated to hear about this.

    Finally, nobody is trying to "restore Irish as the common tongue of Ireland", they are trying to increase its usage, not completely supplant English.


  • #75
    opti0nal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 892 ✭✭✭opti0nal


    Cú Giobach wrote: »

    Finally, nobody is trying to "restore Irish as the common tongue of Ireland", they are trying to increase its usage, not completely supplant English.

    This is untue, it is the main aim of an organisation called 'Conradh na Gailge'
    Conradh na Gaeilge is the democratic forum for the Irish-speaking community and promotes the language throughout the whole of Ireland and around the world. Is main aim is to reinstate the Irish language as the common tongue of Ireland. Since its foundation on 31 July 1893 members of the Conradh have been actively promoting Irish in every aspect of life in Ireland...

    This might explain the language laws and the compulsory Irish lessons imposed on English-speaking children?


  • #76
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    opti0nal wrote: »
    This is untue, it is the main aim of an organisation called 'Conradh na Gailge'
    Well good luck to them.
    This might explain the language laws and the compulsory Irish lessons imposed on English-speaking children?
    Trying to change the subject to squirm your way out of a tricky situation, he he, nice one opti0nal, or should I call you cyclopath. ;)
    The "traditional" business gave you away, you refused to explain what you meant by that once before. So I shall put you on ignore again, thanks, bye.


  • #77
    opti0nal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 892 ✭✭✭opti0nal


    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    Well good luck to them.
    It is simply incredible that you were not aware of this organisation and its main aim when you stated that:
    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    nobody is trying to restore Irish as the common tongue of Ireland
    Why did you make this statement? Since you have put forward the argument that there is no 'lifestyle change' motive, what's the point in making people change the language they speak?


  • #78
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Opti0nal/Cyclopath2001, do you know how long ago Conradh na Gaeilge's constitution was written? Just because nobody felt the need to update that sentence from their Constitution since does not mean that is what they are actually working for today.:rolleyes:



    Why are you trying to drag this thread off topic anyway? Its about the possibility of a Gaeltacht in Dublin, not Conradh na Gaeilge's Constitution.


  • #79
    opti0nal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 892 ✭✭✭opti0nal


    deise go deo wrote: »
    do you know how long ago Conradh na Gaeilge's constitution was written? Just because nobody felt the need to update that sentence from their Constitution since does not mean that is what they are actually working for today.:rolleyes: Why are you trying to drag this thread off topic anyway? Its about the possibility of a Gaeltacht in Dublin, not Conradh na Gaeilge's Constitution.
    Deise/Cu Gaobach - Sorry if you find some facts to be inconvenient to your position. I copied that text from Conradh na Gaeilge's recently-redesigned website, so it's not as if it's a relic of their original 1893 web site. The idea of a Dublin Gaeltacht is downright silly, unless your main aim is to replace English with Irish, which is equally silly. I've no problem with such eccentric foibles as long as we don't have to pay for them and children are not forced to participate.


  • #80
    Grudaire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    opti0nal wrote: »
    The idea of a Dublin Gaeltacht is downright silly, unless your main aim is to replace English with Irish, which is equally silly. I've no problem with such eccentric foibles as long as we don't have to pay for them and children are not forced to participate.

    Oh can I claim back my taxpayer money for every service provided only in English?

    The idea of a Gaeltacht anywhere doesn't 'force' anyone to participate. On the off chance you might be talking about Compulsory language classes in secondary school - I personally think that both English and Irish should be optional.


  • #81
    opti0nal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 892 ✭✭✭opti0nal


    Cliste wrote: »
    Oh can I claim back my taxpayer money for every service provided only in English?
    No, you cannot, English is our main language. Everyone benefits from English.


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  • #82
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    opti0nal wrote: »
    Sorry if you find some facts to be inconvenient to your position. I copied that text from Conradh na Gaeilge's recently-redesigned website, so it's not as if it's a relic of their original 1893 web site. The idea of a Dublin Gaeltacht is downright silly, unless your main aim is to replace English with Irish, which is equally silly. I've no problem with such eccentric foibles as long as we don't have to pay for them and children are not forced to participate.



    I know very well where you got it from Cyclopath, I have had this discussion with you before, but the 'Main Aim' as you like to call it comes from their constitution which was written all the way back in 1893, again just because nobody has bothered to update this since then does not make it credible to suggest that this is what they are actually working for today.

    The idea of a Dublin Gaeltacht is downright silly, unless your main aim is to replace English with Irish


    Why would it be silly if your aim was not to replace English? Would it not be possible to aim for a bilingual area of Dublin?


  • #83
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Would it not be possible to aim for a bilingual area of Dublin?
    Sure, as long as we can have bilingual road signs.


  • #84
    opti0nal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 892 ✭✭✭opti0nal


    deise go deo wrote: »
    the 'Main Aim' as you like to call it comes from their constitution which was written all the way back in 1893, again just because nobody has bothered to update this since then does not make it credible to suggest that this is what they are actually working for today.
    ROFL, you're in denial of hard written-down facts. Simply put, you are unbelivable.

    I did not choose the term 'Main Aim', Conradh na Gaeilge did.

    Isn't it time the language movement was honest and frank with the rest of us?


  • #85
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    opti0nal wrote: »
    ROFL, you're in denial of hard written-down facts. Simply put, you are unbelivable.

    I did not choose the term 'Main Aim', Conradh na Gaeilge did.

    Isn't it time the language movement was honest and frank with the rest of us?



    Right, so because Duglas Hyde wrote it in 1893 and no one has updated it since, you actually think it is credible to claim that this is what the organisation as actually working for today?

    FIne, think that if you wnat, just dont get in a temper tantrum when no one takes you seriously.

    Oh and I have pointed this out to you before, Conradh na Gaeilge =/= the language movement.
    There are many organisations, several of which are bigger than Conradh that all have their own aims.


  • #86
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #87
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.


    I have read a copy of their Constitution, it was circulated as part of their Ard Feis Last year, and you're right, it did not contain the sentence: 'main aim is to reinstate the Irish Language as the common tongue of Ireland', it did however say 'Is í príomhaidhm na heagraíochta an Ghaeilge a athréimniú mar ghnáththeanga na hÉireann'. under the section that sets out the organisations aims.


  • #88
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #89
    RichardAnd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,796 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.


    No need, Google can do it for us...

    The main aim of the organization of the restoration as the common language of Ireland


  • #90
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    No need, Google can do it for us...

    The main aim of the organization of the restoration as the common language of Ireland
    Personally I would read that as "The main aim of the organization is the restoration of Irish as an ordinary/everyday language of Ireland".
    Now if it said, "mar an priomhtheanga/as the main language", that would be different.

    Beidh dhá ghnáththeangacha againn.


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  • #91
    RichardAnd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,796 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    Personally I would read that as "The main aim of the organization is the restoration of Irish as an ordinary/everyday language of Ireland".
    Now if it said, "mar an priomhtheanga/as the main language", that would be different.

    Beidh dhá ghnáththeangacha againn.



    Well, Google translate does have an option of providing feedback. If you think it falls short, tell them.


  • #92
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    Personally I would read that as "The main aim of the organization is the restoration of Irish as an ordinary/everyday language of Ireland".
    That strikes me as a creative misreading. If you look at the phrase "ghnáththeanga na hÉireann" in isolation, I think the most accurate translation would be "the normal language of Ireland". The fact that definite articles are often omitted in Irish allows for your interpretation, but I think - objectively - mine is more accurate.


  • #93
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    Well, Google translate does have an option of providing feedback. If you think it falls short, tell them.
    How well Google translate works is directly proportional to how much is on the web in the languages being translated. It works by comparing how words are used and with smaller languages such as Irish it isn't the best, also since those at Google know how it works, I won't bother.
    It is pretty much common knowledge that GT isn't accurate enough for definitive translations and is best used to give the gist of what is written (especially in the lesser used languages).


  • #94
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    That strikes me as a creative misreading. If you look at the phrase "ghnáththeanga na hÉireann" in isolation, I think the most accurate translation would be "the normal language of Ireland". The fact that definite articles are often omitted in Irish allows for your interpretation, but I think - objectively - mine is more accurate.
    It's the use of the word "Gnáth" that gives me the the feeling of the sentence, not really the use or absence of "an", though that does strengthen it.
    Gnáththeanga just means, "an ordinary everyday language", with no sense of primacy about it.

    Just a wee question (not just to you oscarB), So what if there is an organisation that would like to reinstate Irish as the príomhtheanga here, are some people scared they might actually succeed?
    Don't be worrying, they won't. Though it could become a ghnáththeanga in places where it hasn't been for a while, is that scary too? Would the sound of it hurt your ears?


  • #95
    PeadarCo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,958 ✭✭✭PeadarCo


    How would a Gaeltacht region (even equal status) in a cosmopolitian city like Dublin be achieved? I can understand the traditional Gaeltacht regions suffering due the recession and efforts being made to establish Gaeltachts less prone to economic uncertainties. How do Irish language groups plan to get Irish from being primarily a book language and persuade people like me who a conversational level of Irish to actually use it.

    My own view that in the short term the goal is impossible due to the jobs situation. Most jobs at the moment are in the export and or Multinational sector. Area's where english is a nessessity and knowledge Irish unfortuneately is pointless far better a foriegn language which would help a person get a job. I'd agree that from a cultural point of view knowledge of Irish is important but as a day to day I don't see what it does. That should be put in the context that that I don't use it and on a day to day basis the language for me is dead. I can understand and would expect someone who does us it regularly to hold a different opinion.


  • #96
    opti0nal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 892 ✭✭✭opti0nal


    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    Gnáththeanga just means, "an ordinary everyday language", with no sense of primacy about it.
    You're falling into the trap of making a literal word-for-word translation. It's necessary to look at the overall sense of the phrase, let's look at some neglected parts of the sentence:
    an Ghaeilge a athréimniú mar ghnáththeanga na hÉireann'.
    The first important word is 'athréimniú' which is translated as 'restore' or 'reinstate', this means go back a past situation. No mention of bilingualism and co-residing with English-speakers. The second is 'na hÉireann'' which implies exclusivity.

    Now let's look at some official-speak and try to translate it:
    The Bill has two primary objectives, namely, to provide for a new definition for the Gaeltacht and to make amendments to the role and functions of Údarás na Gaeltachta.
    What does this mean: 'virtual Gaeltachts' in peoples heads, perhaps?


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  • #97
    Focalbhach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 459 ✭✭Focalbhach


    opti0nal wrote: »
    You're falling into the trap of making a literal word-for-word translation.

    Translating the words actually used? Shocking behaviour.

    Gnáththeanga = ordinary/commonly-used language.
    Príomhtheanga = main language. A word was available if that's the meaning meant to be conveyed.
    opti0nal wrote: »
    The first important word is 'athréimniú' which is translated as 'restore' or 'reinstate', this means go back a past situation.

    A past situation, such as the one where Irish was more commonly used?


    Regardless of this bizarre-but-unsurprising offroad excursion, CnaG's constitution is nothing to do with the possible development of non-traditional Gaeltacht areas.


  • #98
    opti0nal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 892 ✭✭✭opti0nal


    Focalbhach wrote: »
    Translating the words actually used? Shocking behaviour.
    You don't know much about translation. The intention and sense is important.

    You've ignored the use of 'na h'Eireann'? If they meant 'a' language, they would have said 'in Eireann'.

    You've also ignored their official translation:
    Is main aim is to reinstate the Irish language as the common tongue of Ireland.
    What happened there, a Freudian slip perhaps?
    Focalbhach wrote: »
    Regardless of this bizarre-but-unsurprising offroad excursion, CnaG's constitution is nothing to do with the possible development of non-traditional Gaeltacht areas.
    It helps to understand the motives of those concerned. The 'Main Aim' has not gone away, you know.

    As for 'non-traditional Gaeltacht' - expect a slap from Cu Gaobach.


  • #99
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    opti0nal wrote: »
    You're falling into the trap of making a literal word-for-word translation. It's necessary to look at the overall sense of the phrase, let's look at some neglected parts of the sentence:

    The main point is that if the meaning that you are suggesting was intended, then the use of the word 'Gnáth' makes no sense, the meaning convayed in the term 'Common Language' in English is not contained in the term 'Gnáththeanga' in Irish, to convey the meaning of 'Common Language' you would need to use 'Príomhtheanga'.
    The first important word is 'athréimniú' which is translated as 'restore' or 'reinstate', this means go back a past situation. No mention of bilingualism and co-residing with English-speakers. The second is 'na hÉireann'' which implies exclusivity.


    The use of na hÉireann does not in itself imply exclusivity, it functions as 'Of Ireland' in the sentence, if the phrase was 'Príomhtheanga na hÉireann', that would mean what you are saying, but the use of the word 'Gnáth', which has no connection with exclusivity of primacy in Irish means that this can not be the meaning of the sentence.
    Now let's look at some official-speak and try to translate it:
    What does this mean: 'virtual Gaeltachts' in peoples heads, perhaps?


    No, Its a reference to the change from Geographical to Linguistic criteria for what is a Gaeltacht.


  • #100
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    opti0nal wrote: »
    You don't know much about translation. The intention and sense is important.

    You've ignored the use of 'na h'Eireann'? If they meant 'a' language, they would have said 'in Eireann'.

    Thats not true, 'Na hÉireann' translates as 'Of Ireland' and is appropriate whichever meaning is intended, 'in Éireann' means 'In Ireland' and would not be used either way.

    Indeed the intention and sense are important, and in no sense can Gnáththeanga be made to intend Primary Language.


  • #101
    Focalbhach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 459 ✭✭Focalbhach


    opti0nal wrote: »
    It helps to understand the motives of those concerned. The 'Main Aim' has not gone away, you know.

    As has been pointed out to you innumerable times by multiple people, your fixation with CnaG ignores the fact that they haven't written the proposed legislation which is (supposedly) under discussion. Your continuing references to a 'main aim' that seems to primarily exist in your head don't do anything to support your case.
    opti0nal wrote: »
    As for 'non-traditional Gaeltacht' - expect a slap from Cu Gaobach.

    I think it's safe to say that Clondalkin is not a traditional Gaeltacht - i.e., Irish-speaking area. If Cú Giobach wants to correct me on that, I'm open to it.

    If, on the other hand, you're referring to the slap you got for your nonsense about some sort of 'traditional' lifestyle that you never explained, but that you think people want to re-create, then I'm happy to clarify that the idea - your idea - was nonsense. We're talking about a language, not a lifestyle. I'll quote Cú Giobach here since you're so taken with his/her thoughts:
    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    ...the only difference between people in any Irish speaking households and their English speaking neighbours that I have ever come across is the language they speak.

    The traditional early-21st-century Irish lifestyle will remain the early-21st-century Irish lifestyle, whether conducted through Irish, English, French, Polish, or any combination thereof.


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