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Continuous white line and bus stops

  • 09-10-2007 11:04pm
    #1
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,040 ✭✭✭✭


    Whats the story with continuous white lines. I was reading the driver theory test (DTT) book and on page 71 they have a picture of a continuous white line with several options to pick. The correct answer is that you can't do a U-turn or stop at any time. I've checked the rules of the road (ROTR) and there is no mention of this. But I've noticed now that they are painting continuous white lines at bus stops to stop people overtaking the bus, which it does say in the ROTR.
    My question is why are they teaching our new drivers that you can't stop at any time beside a continuous white line in the DTT book and then placing bus stops beside them which means that all the buses are breaking the law? I did a quick search on transport.ie but couldn't find the rule for continuous white lines. Can someone explain how we have 2 books from the same government which don't have the same rules in them? And if the DTT book is correct why are they placing continuous white lines at bus stops?


Comments

  • #2
    mackerski
    Registered Users Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭mackerski


    I can't find the relevant road traffic act, but either ours or the UK version specifically allows the crossing of a continuous white line to pass a stationary obstruction (which a stoped bus is).


  • #3
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    Del2005 wrote:
    And if the DTT book is correct why are they placing continuous white lines at bus stops?
    One possibility is to avoid risk to passengers who might be crossing the road after getting off the bus?

    As regards stopping beside a continuous white line, I think you're confusing that with the offence of parking beside a continuous white line. The bus is not parked.


  • #4
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,040 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    One possibility is to avoid risk to passengers who might be crossing the road after getting off the bus?

    As regards stopping beside a continuous white line, I think you're confusing that with the offence of parking beside a continuous white line. The bus is not parked.

    I know that they are placing the lines to try and stop people overtaking the bus while passengers are alighting, but if a government publication is saying thats it's illegal to do so why are they doing it. If they don't want people to overtake buses do what the USA does for school buses, when the red lights are on no-one on the road can pass the bus on either side of the road unless there is a hard barrier.

    If a bus is stopped to let passengers off, I'm sure that they'd have to apply the parking brake, would that not mean that they are parked up unloading passengers? I would assume if they are only stopped on the road due to traffic they wouldn't open the doors. And as far as can remember it's no stopping, will have to have a look at the book again.


  • #5
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,493 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Del, could you take a photograph of this or tell us where it is so someone can take a picture?


  • #6
    Voipjunkie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Voipjunkie


    mackerski wrote: »
    I can't find the relevant road traffic act, but either ours or the UK version specifically allows the crossing of a continuous white line to pass a stationary obstruction (which a stoped bus is).


    No you can only cross if it is absolutely necessary and safe to do so if the bus was parked or broken down then it would be absolutely necessary if it is momentarily stopped to load or unload it is not absolutely necessary to cross a continuous white line to go around the bus.


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  • #7
    mackerski
    Registered Users Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭mackerski


    Voipjunkie wrote: »
    No you can only cross if it is absolutely necessary and safe to do so if the bus was parked or broken down then it would be absolutely necessary if it is momentarily stopped to load or unload it is not absolutely necessary to cross a continuous white line to go around the bus.

    Well, I still can't find the relevant sections from Irish law, but found one for the clause on the UK books that I was thinking of:

    http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17436

    (look for the 2nd instance of 'stationary'). Is your wording above based on the actual Road Traffic Act? If so, can we have a link? I've tried a few times to find one that refers to continuous white lines...


  • #8
    trellheim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,967 ✭✭✭trellheim


    Here is bus lane law

    Can't find amendments later than this....


    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html#zzsi182y1997a32


  • #9
    Voipjunkie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Voipjunkie


    mackerski wrote: »
    Well, I still can't find the relevant sections from Irish law, but found one for the clause on the UK books that I was thinking of:

    http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17436

    (look for the 2nd instance of 'stationary'). Is your wording above based on the actual Road Traffic Act? If so, can we have a link? I've tried a few times to find one that refers to continuous white lines...

    25. (1) Where traffic sign number RRM 001 [continuous white line] has been provided on a roadway or where two such traffic signs are provided in parallel, a driver shall not cross that sign or signs.
    5. (1) These Regulations shall apply save where compliance is not possible as a result of an obstruction to traffic or pedestrians or because of an emergency situation confronting a road user which could not reasonably have been expected or anticipated.




    A bus actively loading or unloading is not an obstruction that would require anyone to cross a continuous white line in the same way that a vehicle waiting to turn right would not require you to mount the footpath to get around it.

    Whilst people do it all the time if anything goes wrong you are in deep **** being on the wrong side of a continuous white line immediately puts you in the wrong and if a garda ever decided to do his job you could be done for it and get the penalty points.

    2 points for crossing a continuous white line or you could go to court and argue that despite the fact that the authorities had placed a continuous white line at the bus stop to specifically stop people from overtaking it whilst it loaded you felt it absolutely necessary to cross the white line but i would not fancy your chances and my guess is you would have 4 points upon leaving the court.


  • #10
    mackerski
    Registered Users Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭mackerski


    Voipjunkie wrote: »
    A bus actively loading or unloading is not an obstruction that would require anyone to cross a continuous white line in the same way that a vehicle waiting to turn right would not require you to mount the footpath to get around it.

    Agreed - our get-out clauses are a lot more restrictive than the UK ones. The key phrase here is "compliance is not possible", as the stopped bus is certainly an obstruction.


  • #11
    Voipjunkie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Voipjunkie


    mackerski wrote: »
    Agreed - our get-out clauses are a lot more restrictive than the UK ones. The key phrase here is "compliance is not possible", as the stopped bus is certainly an obstruction.


    Yes it is an obstruction but only of a temporary nature if the bus was using the stop as a terminus or broken down etc then you could cross the white line quite legitimately but bear in mind that all DB buses are fitted with cameras so determining how long the bus was stopped is trivial.


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  • #12
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    I'd say the manner in which a stopped bus is overtaken is important. Slipping past at 20kph while keeping a weather eye out for pedestrians is unlikely to attract a fine whereas rushing through at 50kph+ & forcing oncoming cars into the gutter should.

    I've also seen situations were drivers just kept passing and would not let a bus pull out.


  • #13
    Voipjunkie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Voipjunkie


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    I'd say the manner in which a stopped bus is overtaken is important. Slipping past at 20kph while keeping a weather eye out for pedestrians is unlikely to attract a fine whereas rushing through at 50kph+ & forcing oncoming cars into the gutter should.

    I've also seen situations were drivers just kept passing and would not let a bus pull out.


    No how fast you cross the white line is irrelevant it is a matter of whether you have to cross it the issue of how you do it only comes into play once it is absolutely necessary to cross it if you cross it really slowly and carefully but there was no need to do it then it is still illegal.


  • #14
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    Voipjunkie wrote: »
    if you cross it really slowly and carefully but there was no need to do it then it is still illegal.
    You're right. But, I didn't say is was not illegal, merely that it might not attract a fine if done very carefully. I'd be the last one here to advocate impatient or rash manoeuvres.

    The rule on not crossing the white line is not as absolute as you might think:
    25. (1) Where traffic sign number RRM 001 [continuous white line] has been provided on a roadway ....a driver shall not cross that sign or signs.

    (4) Nothing in this article shall so operate as to prevent a driver from driving across a roadway, along the centre of which the traffic signs referred to have been provided, for the purpose of entering or leaving land or premises adjoining the right hand side of that roadway.

    The fundamental rule is:
    10. (1) A driver shall not overtake, or attempt to overtake, if to do so would endanger, or cause inconvenience to, any other person.


  • #15
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,040 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Victor wrote: »
    Del, could you take a photograph of this or tell us where it is so someone can take a picture?

    Sorry don't have the Driver Theory test book, loaned it out, but it's on page 71. I remembered it from doing the test and then I was bored in a bookshop and rechecked. Will try and get the book back but it'll later in the week before I can.

    I know they painted the line to stop people overtaking but then the book that people are suppoesed to know before they drive says that you can't stop beside the line.


  • #16
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    Del2005 wrote: »
    I know they painted the line to stop people overtaking but then the book that people are suppoesed to know before they drive says that you can't stop beside the line.
    Does it say 'stop' or 'park'?
    Here's what the regulation says:
    (2) A vehicle shall not be parked—
    ...
    ( d ) on a section of roadway with less than 3 traffic lanes and where traffic sign number RRM 001 [continuous white line] has been provided;
    ...
    ( l ) where traffic sign RUS 031 [bus stop] or RRM 030 [stopping place or stand] has been provided unless the vehicle is an omnibus.


  • #17
    Voipjunkie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Voipjunkie


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    You're right. But, I didn't say is was not illegal, merely that it might not attract a fine if done very carefully. I'd be the last one here to advocate impatient or rash manoeuvres.

    The rule on not crossing the white line is not as absolute as you might think:


    The fundamental rule is:


    Nothing in what you posted disagrees with what I have said ie you may not cross a continuous white line unless it is absolutely necessary and only then with it is safe to do so.

    So the point is passing a bus that is loading or unloading at a bus stop absolutely necessary and the answer is NO

    And to the OP the bus loading or unloading at a bus stop that has a continuous white line opposite it is not breaking the law as the bus is permitted to stop at the bus stop in much the same way as it is illegal to stop or park at a bus stop that rule does not apply to a bus it is commonsense really.

    A bus is not parking when it stops at a bus stop it is doing what is supposed to be doing in the same way that a car stopped at a traffic light is not parked. However if you got out of the vehicle and left it there or stopped longer than was necessary then you would be parked.


  • #18
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    Voipjunkie wrote: »
    So the point is passing a bus that is loading or unloading at a bus stop absolutely necessary and the answer is NO
    A good example that supports this statement can be found just before Dollymount bridge going towards the city. There is a bus stop with a single white line in the centre of the road which curves to the right. Yet, I've often seen the bus unable to pull away as cars coming from the Sutton direction barge past at speed, half-way over the white line. There have been a few near misses with cars coming from the city direction who are driving near the centre of the road because of illegal parking.

    It's a situation that could do with a bit of enforcement.


  • #19
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,493 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Del2005 wrote: »
    Sorry don't have the Driver Theory test book, loaned it out, but it's on page 71. I remembered it from doing the test and then I was bored in a bookshop and rechecked. Will try and get the book back but it'll later in the week before I can.

    I know they painted the line to stop people overtaking but then the book that people are suppoesed to know before they drive says that you can't stop beside the line.
    Sorry, I mean an example on the ground. :)


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