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Any senior software devs here?

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  • 26-07-2013 12:04pm
    #1
    pushpop
    Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭


    I need some career advice from one software team lead to another, but would rather not discuss it in a thread as I don't think I can effectively anonymise myself on boards :) If anyone can lend an ear and a PM I'd appreciate it, thanks!


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    #2
    ChRoMe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭ChRoMe


    pushpop wrote: »
    I need some career advice from one software team lead to another, but would rather not discuss it in a thread as I don't think I can effectively anonymise myself on boards :) If anyone can lend an ear and a PM I'd appreciate it, thanks!

    I'm a tech lead.


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    #3
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,033 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    I'm a snr dev if you still want one.


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    #4
    TrueDub
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 2,638 Mod ✭✭✭✭TrueDub


    I'm a tech lead too, if I can help.


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    #5
    L.Jenkins
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,240 Mod ✭✭✭✭L.Jenkins


    I'd be interested in seeing how this thread goes. I'm interested in following the path to Senior Developer in the next couple of years.


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    #6
    RealistSpy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,686 ✭✭✭RealistSpy


    Itzy wrote: »
    I'd be interested in seeing how this thread goes. I'm interested in following the path to Senior Developer in the next couple of years.

    +1

    What would be the average time to get to that position?


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    #7
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    I'm Dave


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    #8
    onemorechance
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭onemorechance


    RealistSpy wrote: »
    +1

    What would be the average time to get to that position?

    I notice that people tend to add the word 'senior' to their email sig after 5 years! :pac:

    I expect your employer won't change your title (and pay) so easily! If you are good or they can charge your time to a client, I expect that they will be more inclined to up your title and wage.


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    #9
    ChRoMe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭ChRoMe


    onemorechance wrote: »
    I notice that people tend to add the word 'senior' to their email sig after 5 years! :pac:

    I expect your employer won't change your title (and pay) so easily! If you are good or they can charge your time to a client, I expect that they will be more inclined to up your title and wage.

    Indeed, this thread appears to be schizophrenic, as the title mentions a senior dev yet the OP talks about a tech lead.

    They are two very different things.


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    #10
    srsly78
    Registered Users Posts: 7,157 ✭✭✭srsly78


    Itzy wrote: »
    I'd be interested in seeing how this thread goes. I'm interested in following the path to Senior Developer in the next couple of years.

    Are you sure you don't want to stay as a junior developer for your entire career?


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    #11
    L.Jenkins
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,240 Mod ✭✭✭✭L.Jenkins


    Well I was thinking as opposed to obtaining just a title, in the area of upskilling, what would be the best to obtain instead of just coding and being involved in design processes.


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    #12
    onemorechance
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭onemorechance


    Itzy wrote: »
    Well I was thinking as opposed to obtaining just a title, in the area of upskilling, what would be the best to obtain instead of just coding and being involved in design processes.

    It's best to do what you like! You could learn more about the build and deploy process, how to debug and troubleshoot applications running on the production server, see what area good company are lacking skills in, or what you find interesting, e.g. mobile application development.

    Learning project management seems to be popular in my place! I see a lot of people with their PMP books. I think that it can be a very tough job; software development projects are notorious for running late, having lots of changes to the project plan, and then you have to deal with the business people and the developers... Yikes!!! :pac:


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    #13
    srsly78
    Registered Users Posts: 7,157 ✭✭✭srsly78


    Itzy wrote: »
    Well I was thinking as opposed to obtaining just a title, in the area of upskilling, what would be the best to obtain instead of just coding and being involved in design processes.

    You don't need to bother with any of that. All you have to do is get older really!


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    #14
    TrueDub
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 2,638 Mod ✭✭✭✭TrueDub


    srsly78 wrote: »
    You don't need to bother with any of that. All you have to do is get older really!

    Not sure where you work, but this is not true. Seniors are expected to be able to guide development processes, review others' code, verify design decisions and give input into work estimations.


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    #15
    srsly78
    Registered Users Posts: 7,157 ✭✭✭srsly78


    TrueDub wrote: »
    Not sure where you work, but this is not true. Seniors are expected to be able to guide development processes, review others' code, verify design decisions and give input into work estimations.

    All of which is pretty easy when you have lots of experience, see previous post.


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    #16
    CreepingDeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,016 ✭✭✭CreepingDeath


    srsly78 wrote: »
    You don't need to bother with any of that. All you have to do is get older really!

    -1

    Plenty of people can write code in Java.

    To be a senior developer or higher, ( I'm a principal engineer ), you need to know how to design modular code, nice frameworks and APIs that can be easily used and maintained.
    You have to look at the bigger picture, that it can be scalable, secure, configurable without complicating the code too much, etc.

    There's typically a gap between technical architects and developers, where someone needs to enforce the right coding and design standards on a daily basis.

    The average developer will hack code to get it working, without considering what happens if someone wants to change or extend it in 6 months time. So they end up with convoluted code that's a maintenance nightmare.

    Depending on where someone is in the team, they may never get exposed to the higher level stuff, so length of service doesn't make a senior developer.
    God forbid we adopt the public sector model for promotion !


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    #17
    srsly78
    Registered Users Posts: 7,157 ✭✭✭srsly78


    Sorry guys but reality begs to differ. There are lots of "senior developers" that just sit there watching the clock all day! Or guys that are extremely experienced in one area, but clueless in any others. I have seen lots of senior guys that are burnt out and don't really care - but they still get paid the big bucks (to pay their big celtic tiger mortgages they are stuck with).

    Is this thread about people with the job title "senior developer", or is it about experienced developers in senior positions? I've worked in places where EVERYONE was a senior developer. There are some places (web shops) where everyone is in their 20s, and the senior guy might be late 20s. Conversely, I was told a few times that I was too young for senior roles in my 20s - despite passing all the technical tests.

    Regarding length of service / public sector: this is not how it works. The easiest way to progress your career in IT is to switch jobs, it's very rare to get promoted from within. I have seen people get promoted in large companies, but hilariously this led to a massive falling out with peers and all the other prospective promotees quitting.


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    #18
    ChRoMe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭ChRoMe


    srsly78 wrote: »
    The easiest way to progress your career in IT is to switch jobs, it's very rare to get promoted from within.

    Indeed, the exceptions if anything just prove the rule. Every big bump I've gotten has been from moving.


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    #19
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    srsly78 wrote: »
    Are you sure you don't want to stay as a junior developer for your entire career?
    Quite a lot (really, way too many) people go from Junior Developer to Developer to Manager without hitting the Senior Developer stage. Or at least, without really hitting it (as opposed to changing the title in your email -- really being a Senior Developer is a little more involved).
    srsly78 wrote: »
    Sorry guys but reality begs to differ. There are lots of "senior developers" that just sit there watching the clock all day!
    You're confusing "older developer" with "senior developer" there I think (and so are they if that's what they're claiming to be).


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    #20
    ChRoMe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭ChRoMe


    Sparks wrote: »
    Quite a lot (really, way too many) people go from Junior Developer to Developer to Manager without hitting the Senior Developer stage. Or at least, without really hitting it (as opposed to changing the title in your email -- really being a Senior Developer is a little more involved).

    I fail to see the problem with that if you end up in management.


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    #21
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    ChRoMe wrote: »
    I fail to see the problem with that if you end up in management.
    Sometimes it isn't a problem - the Manager skillset isn't a superset of the Senior Developer skillset, though there's definitely a degree of intersection there. I've had both bad and good managers over the years who had both been senior devs and not; though I've always thought I got fewer bad managers who had spent time as senior developers, but that could just be my own bias or even just the luck of the draw.

    My point was that becoming a senior developer wasn't inevitable or even required for career progression, unless of course you're going down the technical specialist career path (as opposed to the management-executive path) in which case you'd better be sure it'll be required. (And of course, there are the people who confuse "older" with "senior" and who think that just hanging around for N years is sufficient -- that is a major problem).


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    #22
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    Well those people are hired, paid and called senior developers, what then makes them not one? That's the problem. There are even plenty of people in their mid twenties are hired as such but are not qualified. I think what srsly78 says happens, does happen and what you guys are saying is what should happen.


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    #23
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Welcome to the same debate engineers have been having for a very long time about legal protection of job titles...


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    #24
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    The role of senior engineer may be a role title or a skillset.

    As a job title it's meaningless. Titles are heavily abused in Irish IT firms; they can be assigned for sales and marketing purposes (you can charge a client more for a senior engineer than you can for just an engineer) and have also long been used as a means of rewarding employees, without offering them any increase in salary.

    This is not to say that someone who's job title is senior engineer is not one, only that any correlation between the title and the skillset is weak.

    As a skillset, it means experienced. It means that they'll find a bug in a fraction of the time, because they came across a similar bug ten years ago. Or that they'll be able to judge accurately how long it'll take to code a certain piece of functionality. Or their code will be cleaner, with fewer hacks and bad practices.

    I don't think there's really a hard definition on this outside of being more knowledgeable and experienced; for that we'd probably need an official definition - what Sparks called the protection of job titles - which doesn't really exist in IT. There's certifications, but they're very limited in scope.

    Why? I suspect it's because employers don't want it. Legal protection of job titles makes you a professional, like a solicitor, doctor or accountant, and that in turn increases what you can demand to be paid.

    And if an IT employer wants to demonstrate that they're following 'standards' to their clients, it's a lot cheaper to pay for your company to be ISO whatever certified, than paying professionally certified engineers higher salaries.


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