[News] Luas contract renewed

n97 mini · 05-09-2014 11:55am

If there was a visible Garda presense on the Luas it would deter a lot of the stuff that goes on. Having said that the last time I used the Red Line (March) two gardaí got on at one of the city centre stops.

bk · 05-09-2014 1:18pm

lxflyer wrote: »

The Sunday timetable was not recast when the weekday schedules were.

The basic frequency on DART on Sundays is 20 minutes.

Unless you happened to be in Howth last Sunday when I discovered to my horror that the next train was going to be in two hours!!!!!!!!!!!!

It wasn't the end of the world, we retired to the pub for a few drinks. I know I could have gotten Dublin Bus, but my friends had bought return DART tickets.

But the point is it doesn't give people a good feeling about DART.

Even with 4 trains per hour trough the city center, the problem is that it isn't consistent! There can be two of these trains in 10 minutes and then non for another 30 or 40 minutes!!

And even if it was only 15 minutes, that isn't particularly good for urban mass transit.

DART is particularly inconsistent and I would go almost as far to say unusable off peak and at weekends.

I think most peoples opinion of DART is the it is OK, but far from great and certainly not a patch on LUAS.

Looking at Luas vs DART it is very clear that light rail with it's smaller but much more frequent trains is much better suited to urban mass transit.

end of the road, I find your responses to my issues with Irish Rail hilarious. In each case you blame it on Irish Rail management, but that is irrelevant to the point I'm making. It doesn't matter if the cause of these problems are Irish Rail staff or management (and personally I think it is both), the problems are there and the point is we certainly don't want these issues infecting LUAS and Metro North. So no Metro North shouldn't be heavy rail.

Again you still haven't given any reasons why Metro North would be better if it was "integrated" with heavy rail/Irish rail versus being integrated with light rail/Luas.

If you are going to waste time and money changing the plans of Metro North, then I'd rather focus on extending Metro North further south and have it join up with the Luas Green Line.

cgcsb · 05-09-2014 1:54pm

irishgeo wrote: »

I wonder does the new contract come with any clauses on security on the luas. I'd say ireland needs a transport police. But we have enough problems trying to keep the normal garda numbers up. The traffic core launched in fanfare a few years back is a shadow of itself that I rarely see any cars on the road.

Transport police for a few km of tramway?

cgcsb · 05-09-2014 1:58pm

DART could be great if it didn't have so many conflicts with intercity and commuter trains. There's also the problem of level crossings which need to be closed if frequency is going to be improved beyond 15mins.

L1011 · 05-09-2014 1:58pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Transport police for a few km of tramway?

Also needed on certain buses, nitelinks and trains

Beano · 05-09-2014 2:21pm

If there is a choice between a luas type service and dart type service for a new line why is there any discussion required at all? The LUAS service is far superior.

Losty Dublin · 05-09-2014 2:51pm

bk wrote: »

Unless you happened to be in Howth last Sunday when I discovered to my horror that the next train was going to be in two hours!!!!!!!!!!!!

Odd that you encountered a 2 hour gap. The longest gap on a Sunday is about one hour; unless there was some incident or perhaps the drink hit your time keeping abilities

end of the road · 05-09-2014 2:54pm

bk wrote: »

Unless you happened to be in Howth last Sunday when I discovered to my horror that the next train was going to be in two hours!!!!!!!!!!!!

It wasn't the end of the world, we retired to the pub for a few drinks. I know I could have gotten Dublin Bus, but my friends had bought return DART tickets.

But the point is it doesn't give people a good feeling about DART.

Even with 4 trains per hour trough the city center, the problem is that it isn't consistent! There can be two of these trains in 10 minutes and then non for another 30 or 40 minutes!!

And even if it was only 15 minutes, that isn't particularly good for urban mass transit.

DART is particularly inconsistent and I would go almost as far to say unusable off peak and at weekends.

I think most peoples opinion of DART is the it is OK, but far from great and certainly not a patch on LUAS.

Looking at Luas vs DART it is very clear that light rail with it's smaller but much more frequent trains is much better suited to urban mass transit.

end of the road, I find your responses to my issues with Irish Rail hilarious. In each case you blame it on Irish Rail management, but that is irrelevant to the point I'm making. It doesn't matter if the cause of these problems are Irish Rail staff or management (and personally I think it is both), the problems are there and the point is we certainly don't want these issues infecting LUAS and Metro North. So no Metro North shouldn't be heavy rail.

Again you still haven't given any reasons why Metro North would be better if it was "integrated" with heavy rail/Irish rail versus being integrated with light rail/Luas.

If you are going to waste time and money changing the plans of Metro North, then I'd rather focus on extending Metro North further south and have it join up with the Luas Green Line.

wrong again. i gave you reasons. stop saying i didn't just because you don't agree with them. i stand by what i said

bk · 05-09-2014 3:22pm

end of the road wrote: »

wrong again. i gave you reasons. stop saying i didn't just because you don't agree with them. i stand by what i said

No you didn't, all you said was "integration" and "operability" without going into any details what these "buzz" words mean in practical terms!

You haven't given a single concrete example of how Metro North would be better off being part of the Irish Rail heavy rail network.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Odd that you encountered a 2 hour gap. The longest gap on a Sunday is about one hour; unless there was some incident or perhaps the drink hit your time keeping abilities

Yes, it was very odd, but it was what the Irish Rail RTPI app said and we confirmed it by staying at the coffee shop next to the train station * Actually we mostly drank coffee and only had one beer.

* BTW lovely sort of outdoor indoors place with heaters, beds, sofas, etc. Well worth visiting.

cgcsb wrote: »

Transport police for a few km of tramway?

I would suggest that a Transport Police force be setup in the following way:

- Merge the Airport Police into it
- Give them the same powers of arrest as the Gardai
- Get Rid of Irish Rails/Luas private security folks, have this new force do it
- Get Rid of Irish Rails/Luas ticket checkers, have this new force do it
- Have Irish Rail, Luas, Dublin Bus and the airport authorities finance this force from the money they save getting rid of the above.

Basically a version of Britain's Transport Police force, who have full powers to arrest, but are actually paid for by British Rail.

You will have far less messing from scum when the private security/ticket checker can put handcuffs on you and throw you in the back of a paddy wagon.

Even if they only end up "holding" over night and releasing them in the morning, the inconvenience to the scum and their drug trade business would quickly put some manners on them.

There is a lot of psychology to policing that unfortunately we fail miserably at here in Ireland. Here in Ireland unfortunately ticket dodging isn't considered a real "crime". In the US, ticket checking is done by heavily armed police. If you are caught, you get handcuffed and held on the platform for an hour or two as people walk by until a police van finally comes and takes you to the station. Under those circumstances people would be far less likely to take a chance and to mess around.

end of the road · 05-09-2014 4:07pm

bk wrote: »

No you didn't, all you said was "integration" and "operability" without going into any details what these "buzz" words mean in practical terms!

You haven't given a single concrete example of how Metro North would be better off being part of the Irish Rail heavy rail network.

i have.

bk wrote: »

I would suggest that a Transport Police force be setup in the following way:

- Merge the Airport Police into it
- Give them the same powers of arrest as the Gardai
- Get Rid of Irish Rails/Luas private security folks, have this new force do it
- Get Rid of Irish Rails/Luas ticket checkers, have this new force do it
- Have Irish Rail, Luas, Dublin Bus and the airport authorities finance this force from the money they save getting rid of the above.

Basically a version of Britain's Transport Police force, who have full powers to arrest, but are actually paid for by British Rail.

why not just use the guards. the transport companies shouldn't be expected to fund a separate police force. the british transport police should be abolished and replace with more real police officers. in my view the british transport police are illegitimate police. only the real police are legitimate and should have any powers of arrest. irish rail ticket checkers are the only people who should legitimately be entitled to check tickets as thats their job.

bk wrote: »

You will have far less messing from scum when the private security/ticket checker can put handcuffs on you and throw you in the back of a paddy wagon.

you won't. it doesn't work like that. private security have no rights and powers for a reason. rightly so

bk wrote: »

Even if they only end up "holding" over night and releasing them in the morning, the inconvenience to the scum and their drug trade business would quickly put some manners on them.

no it won't. if someone is going to commit a crime they will do so. there is no such thing as a deterrent to crime anymore anywhere in modern society. there are those who will and those who won't. thats what i've learned over my life.

bk wrote: »

There is a lot of psychology to policing that unfortunately we fail miserably at here in Ireland.

if the police catch you commiting or get word of one commiting a crime they will arrest where possible. nothing more to it.

bk wrote: »

Here in Ireland unfortunately ticket dodging isn't considered a real "crime".

its not. but you get a penalty fare for doing it. more ticket checkers would be able to deal with the issue.

bk wrote: »

In the US, ticket checking is done by heavily armed police.

yeah. lets leave that rubbish to that hole thanks.

bk wrote: »

If you are caught, you get handcuffed and held on the platform for an hour or two as people walk by until a police van finally comes and takes you to the station.

they have the resources and money for all that. we don't and never will. so if they want to waste them thats their problem.

bk wrote: »

Under those circumstances people would be far less likely to take a chance and to mess around.

they wouldn't. it just doesn't work like that anymore

bk · 05-09-2014 6:11pm

end of the road wrote: »

i have.

Then please give a link to the post where you have, as I haven't seen anything!

Also I pretty much disagree with every point you make above about transport police.

Transport police are far more useful then private security and ticket checkers who have no real power and have to call the Gardai if they want to detain someone. The current setup just isn't working. Better to get rid of them completely and instead put the same money into transport police.

There are two advantages of creating a separate transport police, rather then just creating more Gardai:

1) A Transport Police service would be tasked with only policing public transport, if you give the money to the Gardai, over time it would probably just end up going to different areas such as more Gardai in drugs units, etc. and not actually policing public transport.

That is why the DAA has their own separate "Airport Police" because they know they will always be there and under their control rather the control of the Gardai.

2) It isn't as costly to train up a "Transport Police" person then a full on Garda. A Garda has to be trained in firearms and every facet of the law. A Transport Police person wouldn't need as much training, just enough to cover transport laws, etc.

You could probably train two "Transport Police" for every Garda.

Having duplicated private security and ticket checkers all of whom have no real power is just pointless.

Also I wouldn't say that the British Transport police aren't effective. They are often walking around in bullet proof jackets and MP7's sub machnie guns, trust me no one messes with them in London!

Also this isn't unusual in the UK, there are lots of different "specialist" police units in the UK with police powers but aren't part of the normal UK police forces.

For example the British Transport Police, City of London Police (totally separate from the Met, focused on financial and cyber crime), Civil Nuclear Constabulary (police near Nuclear power plants), etc. It seems to be a system that works well in the UK.

end of the road · 05-09-2014 6:25pm

bk wrote: »

Transport police are far more useful then private security and ticket checkers who have no real power and have to call the Gardai if they want to detain someone. The current setup just isn't working. Better to get rid of them completely and instead put the same money into transport police.

ticket checkers check tickets. guardai arrest people. thats how it should work.

bk wrote: »

There are two advantages of creating a separate transport police, rather then just creating more Gardai:

1) A Transport Police service would be tasked with only policing public transport, if you give the money to the Gardai, over time it would probably just end up going to different areas such as more Gardai in drugs units, etc. and not actually policing public transport.

That is why the DAA has their own separate "Airport Police" because they know they will always be there and under their control rather the control of the Gardai.

2) It isn't as costly to train up a "Transport Police" person then a full on Garda. A Garda has to be trained in firearms and every facet of the law. A Transport Police person wouldn't need as much training, just enough to cover transport laws, etc.

You could probably train two "Transport Police" for every Garda.

having 1 police force, aka the guardai, aka the only legitimate police force in the country creates economies of scale. i'm happy with them being the only people to have the powers of arrest.

bk wrote: »

I wouldn't say that the British Transport police aren't effective. They are often walking around in bullet proof jackets and MP7's sub machnie guns, trust me no one messes with them in London!

i bet people mess with them in london. machine guns don't deterr if your the type to go messing with nothing short of mersenaries. these people shouldn't be in charge of a black thorn stick in my opinion

bk wrote: »

Also this isn't unusual in the UK, there are lots of different "specialist" police units in the UK with police powers but aren't part of the normal UK police forces.

which is a waste of money.

bk wrote: »

For example the British Transport Police, City of London Police (totally separate from the Met, focused on financial and cyber crime), Civil Nuclear Constabulary (police near Nuclear power plants), etc. It seems to be a system that works well in the UK.

i doubt it does if we look deep enough. merge them with the legitimate police is what i say. glorified mersenaries are not something i want to see in ireland myself personally.

L1011 · 05-09-2014 7:00pm

end of the road wrote: »

having 1 police force, aka the guardai, aka the only legitimate police force in the country creates economies of scale. i'm happy with them being the only people to have the powers of arrest.

They aren't the only people with powers of arrest, nor are they the only police force.

end of the road wrote: »

i doubt it does if we look deep enough. merge them with the legitimate police is what i say. glorified mersenaries are not something i want to see in ireland myself personally.

They all *are* legitimate police - the UK hasn't got one police force, only Northern Ireland and Scotland even have single forces for their areas; Wales and England are covered by multiple county constabularies.

bk wrote: »

City of London Police (totally separate from the Met, focused on financial and cyber crime),

The City of London Police do have specialisation in financial crime but that's because of the finance houses there - they also have to deal with if your car gets nicked in the Square Mile.

etchyed · 05-09-2014 9:14pm

Got about halfway down page 1 before bk started giving out about Irish Rail. A skim of page 2 indicates this continued. Another CIE-bashing thread. Boring boring boring.

cdebru · 05-09-2014 9:44pm

monument wrote: »

Which has been paid for by their cash reserves?

For balance: Only because the infrastructure cost was effectly written off for Luas / the RPA. Unlike poor Irish Rail who had pay back costs of Dart etc.

Exactly if Luas had to service the €775 million, it would be costing €50m a year for 30 years roughly so Luas would be running massive deficits, it would have a large subvention, fares would be much higher, staff would be facing cuts, there would likely be strikes, as the subvention needed was cut.

Of course the Luas subvention is a hidden subvention, we are all paying it just most don't know.

monument · 05-09-2014 10:11pm

Did not see this...

bk wrote: »

So basically, Metro North is Luas, just a different brand name for the project.

With trams more that twice the length of those on streets.

Chris_5339762 · 05-09-2014 10:47pm

...and what we need is the modern, tram-like open space of the Metro North rolling stock, and not the London Underground type of cramped, sooty, dusty, old conditions.

That said, the London Underground is a fun experience on its own!

Grandeeod · 06-09-2014 1:09am

end of the road wrote: »

its down to management, which is very relevant. they make the decisians and have the final say.

But when they make a decision about cost cutting, you don't agree. Make up your mind. The problem on our rail network is a combination of factors thats spread across the management, staff and share holder. Taking a populist viewpoint that highlights and apportions blame to one or two of those involved is, quite frankly, a load of baloney. I'll explain it to you.

To come on here and blame staff for everything is wrong.

To come on here and blame management for everything is wrong.

To come on here and blame the shareholder/Government for everything is wrong.

To come on here and blame the management/shareholder/Government for everything is wrong.

The problems within and with the entire CIE group are down to a combination of factors that have been outlined many times on Boards.ie, over many years. Unfortunately we are still stuck in a situation whereby boardsies with any kind of interest refuse to look at the issue as a whole and insist on being consumed by fanboy loyalty, employment, legacies, dislike and hatred.

I have seen very little evidence of anyone looking at it in a fashion that's based on some kind of neutrality. It has got to the point where it is easy to pass off criticism of CIE as mere "bashing" and any post that even suggests anything like closing the rail network is treated as trolling. The defensiveness is killing any real debate.

n97 mini · 06-09-2014 12:16pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

...and what we need is the modern, tram-like open space of the Metro North rolling stock, and not the London Underground type of cramped, sooty, dusty, old conditions.

That said, the London Underground is a fun experience on its own!

And it's the envy of (most of) the world!

LXFlyer · 06-09-2014 1:49pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

...and what we need is the modern, tram-like open space of the Metro North rolling stock, and not the London Underground type of cramped, sooty, dusty, old conditions.

That said, the London Underground is a fun experience on its own!

You've clearly not travelled on the new stock on the Victoria, Metropolitan, District, Hammersmith & City and Circle lines in London, and the similar stock on the London Overground.

Anything but cramped or old.

end of the road · 06-09-2014 3:20pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

any post that even suggests anything like closing the rail network is treated as trolling.

when it has been explained thousands of times why shutting and ripping up the lot is a bad idea and people continue to want it you can't blame people for thinking otherwise. i take it you read "that thread" in train and rail systems forum?

Grandeeod · 07-09-2014 12:32am

end of the road wrote: »

when it has been explained thousands of times why shutting and ripping up the lot is a bad idea and people continue to want it you can't blame people for thinking otherwise. i take it you read "that thread" in train and rail systems forum?

Nothing on any side has been explained thousands of times in any form of honesty or appreciation. I read "that thread" and it was locked before any alternative support could be offered to the OP.

monument · 07-09-2014 1:48am

etchyed wrote: »

Got about halfway down page 1 before bk started giving out about Irish Rail. A skim of page 2 indicates this continued. Another CIE-bashing thread. Boring boring boring.

Read the charter.

- Mod

hfallada · 07-09-2014 1:57am

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

...and what we need is the modern, tram-like open space of the Metro North rolling stock, and not the London Underground type of cramped, sooty, dusty, old conditions.

That said, the London Underground is a fun experience on its own!

The Munich U-Bahn is over 40 years old and has a ton of its old trains. But its incredible pleasant to ride, bar the really odd smell of oil in stations. The stations have extremely high ceilings, the tunnels are square and each station is different. Its very much a U-Bahn and not in anyway like the cramped trams of Munich. Both the U-Bahn and S-Bahn (underground) are more pleasant to ride than the trams.

[News] Luas contract renewed

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