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To Believe vs To Know

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  • 13-12-2007 9:46pm
    #1
    eoin5
    Registered Users Posts: 2,141 ✭✭✭


    It doesnt matter about being a religious type or an aethiest or agnostic, the question of believing vs knowing is universal. Many devout thesists will claim to know that God exists but its impossible to know this, or anything else for that matter, without assumptions. This makes any absolute claim to know anything a belief, or a dogma. Its just a different sort of dogma that incorporates a lie, whether its a conscious one or not.

    This is where I see a divide begins between theistic religions and atheism. The amount of religious people who claim to know that God exists is facinating. I dont know many atheists (after a few well put questions) who will claim to know that God doesnt exist. Religious types seem to be more steadfast in their knowingness.

    Does this tell a major difference between the dogmatics involved from both sides?


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    #2
    TheThing!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 287 ✭✭TheThing!


    It is a curious fact that there are a lot more inhabitants of the "I know he does exist" camp than the "I know he doesn't" one. I suppose its down to the differing levels of intellectual honesty displayed by the two groups


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    #3
    SubjectSean
    Registered Users Posts: 458 ✭✭SubjectSean


    TheThing! wrote: »
    It is a curious fact that there are a lot more inhabitants of the "I know he does exist" camp than the "I know he doesn't" one. I suppose its down to the differing levels of intellectual honesty displayed by the two groups

    You don't think it might just be who has the best Hymns then?


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    #4
    TheThing!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 287 ✭✭TheThing!


    SubjectSean wrote: »
    You don't think it might just be who has the best Hymns then?

    I know I may appear a bit "out there" by rejecting the common hymn theory, but I have to follow my beliefs


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    #5
    eoin5
    Registered Users Posts: 2,141 ✭✭✭eoin5


    SubjectSean wrote: »
    You don't think it might just be who has the best Hymns then?

    Theres plenty of reasons why this divide exists, indoctrination, individualism, ritual, life experiences etc. I'm more interested in what the divide amounts to. Is it a fundamental part of the divide or is it just trivial?


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    #6
    Sangre
    Registered Users Posts: 12,153 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    I think theists are pressured more into claiming they 'know' god exists. To admit otherwise might be seen as a lack of true faith in god. Ironically the word 'faith' is a bit of a give away that you can't know this is true.


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    #7
    SubjectSean
    Registered Users Posts: 458 ✭✭SubjectSean


    eoin5 wrote: »
    is it just trivial?

    Really it's the hymns, you have rubbish hymns. Frankly they just aren't uplifting. Bit depressing to be honest. Nobody wants to join in with them and clap along. And you don't have incense or candles. Nor even a place to meet and not pray.

    You can't win you know we're a type of ape :)


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    #8
    Beruthiel
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    eoin5 wrote: »
    The amount of religious people who claim to know that God exists is facinating.

    Isn't it.
    I can't get my heard around it myself.
    I think it has to do with fear. Fear of death. Fear that there might be nothing else. Fear that they are not going to a better place. Fear of the unknown and the need to fill any gap with a god.
    And to prove to themselves that god exists, they 'see' him in things that would just have happened anyway.
    God got me that job, god helped me change my life, god saved me from being run over by that bus.
    If you are brought up in a religion and go through your whole life without any real attempt at sitting back and asking yourself some cold hard questions, then you can quite happily go to your grave with a belief there is a god.
    What I really don't understand, is how come these people don't ask the hard questions.


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    #9
    Asiaprod
    Registered Users Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭Asiaprod


    Interesting post, you started with the answer.
    I think it has to do with fear. Fear of death. Fear that there might be nothing else. Fear that they are not going to a better place. Fear of the unknown and the need to fill any gap with a god.
    Then you asked the question
    What I really don't understand, is how come these people don't ask the hard questions.

    You sneaky person:)


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    #10
    stevejazzx
    Registered Users Posts: 3,247 ✭✭✭stevejazzx


    Beruthiel wrote: »
    Isn't it.
    What I really don't understand, is how come these people don't ask the hard questions.


    Good old Bertie (not the guy with supernaturally generous friends btw) has the answer
    BR wrote:
    Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so


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    #11
    eoin5
    Registered Users Posts: 2,141 ✭✭✭eoin5


    stevejazzx wrote: »
    Good old Bertie (not the guy with supernaturally generous friends btw) has the answer

    [/B]

    My take on a large amount of theists is they think they have a good thing going and so they continually try to find or stumble across the right answers to the tough questions before they ask/debate them in public. This is often spurred on by a dogmatic overall belief that they will never question, ie: that god is my maker, that religion does more good than harm etc. I think this where a lot of the stonewall arguments come from.


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    #12
    Gegerty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 900 ✭✭✭Gegerty


    They Know God exists because it is a symptom of brainwashing.


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    #13
    Sqaull20
    Registered Users Posts: 2,044 ✭✭✭Sqaull20


    I'm convinced anyone who claims to believe in god is on the wind up. If society had existed until now without reference to some make believe creature in the sky, then once it was suggested by a ''cleric'' that there was a ''divine power'' they'd be carted off to the local nut house.


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