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The teacher unions' failure to challenge the NPC.

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  • 16-08-2014 9:25pm
    #1
    endakenny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭


    Why have the teacher unions not questioned the National Parents Council (NPC) on the issue of whether or not it actually represents the parents of pupils?

    I believe that the NPC is a quango because, as far as I'm aware, no parents asked to be represented by the NPC and it probably receives a lot of funding from the government.

    The NPC probably didn't ask parents what they think of the JCSA and it also campaigned in favour of the Children Amendment (It was passed in the referendum but the turnout was abysmal and it is unlikely that the NPC asked parents what they thought of the amendment).


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    #2
    seavill
    Registered Users Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭seavill


    endakenny wrote: »
    Why have the teacher unions not questioned the National Parents Council (NPC) on the issue of whether or not it actually represents the parents of pupils?

    I believe that the NPC is a quango because, as far as I'm aware, no parents asked to be represented by the NPC and it probably receives a lot of funding from the government.

    The NPC probably didn't ask parents what they think of the JCSA and it also campaigned in favour of the Children Amendment (It was passed in the referendum but the turnout was abysmal and it is unlikely that the NPC asked parents what they thought of the amendment).

    What business is it of the teaching unions who the NPC represent? The unions are there to deal with the government in terms of working conditions for their members.

    The NPC is a representative body for the various parents councils in each school around the country, provided they have signed up as members. It represents the interests of those parents councils, which in turn represent the interset of the parents in those schools so who do you think it reprsents if not the parents of pupils?

    Have you any link so show that it receives funding from the government or is this just something you made up?

    Again how do you know if the parents councils were asked or not about the JCSA?

    Your post is all probably and maybes what is this stemming from and have you any proof to back up all your opinions?


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    #3
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    endakenny wrote: »
    Why have the teacher unions not questioned the National Parents Council (NPC) on the issue of whether or not it actually represents the parents of pupils?

    I believe that the NPC is a quango because, as far as I'm aware, no parents asked to be represented by the NPC and it probably receives a lot of funding from the government.

    The NPC probably didn't ask parents what they think of the JCSA and it also campaigned in favour of the Children Amendment (It was passed in the referendum but the turnout was abysmal and it is unlikely that the NPC asked parents what they thought of the amendment).

    I have no idea what they have done with regard to JCSA but I don't think it's fair to say they 'probably receive funding' and 'probably didn't ask' about JCSA when you don't really know and have no proof of it.


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    #4
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    seavill wrote: »
    What business is it of the teaching unions who the NPC represent? The unions are there to deal with the government in terms of working conditions for their members.

    The NPC is a representative body for the various parents councils in each school around the country, provided they have signed up as members. It represents the interests of those parents councils, which in turn represent the interset of the parents in those schools so who do you think it reprsents if not the parents of pupils?

    Have you any link so show that it receives funding from the government or is this just something you made up?

    Again how do you know if the parents councils were asked or not about the JCSA?

    Your post is all probably and maybes what is this stemming from and have you any proof to back up all your opinions?

    Would I be correct in thinking that all of these points were mentioned in a previous thread? Maybe that's the reason for the conjecture ?


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    #5
    seavill
    Registered Users Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭seavill


    Not sure what thread you are talking about, and did you mean points I made or the OP made?


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    #6
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Armelodie wrote: »
    Would I be correct in thinking that all of these points were mentioned in a previous thread? Maybe that's the reason for the conjecture ?

    I thought it was the general policy on boards, that if you are going to make a claim that you should back it up with facts/provide a link?

    We're told often enough to read the charter and it has been raised here on the T&L forum when we've been asked for feedback on how the forum is doing time and time again.

    If people want to post on the forum, they are not supposed to make sweeping generalisations and conjectures and they need to provide evidence.


    From the T&L Charter:

    Get your facts right

    If you are posting something as fact, you will be expected to back it up. For example, 'Loads of teachers have been fired' is not good enough. Neither is 'Irish teachers are the highest paid in Europe.' If you're going to post it, you need to prove it. (Please note that there is a difference between opinion and fact.)


    This stuff appears again and again and is allowed to remain. Again, mods put the charter together.


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    #7
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    On the OP (ignoring the probabilities that have been mentioned), teacher unions are there to represent teachers, why the hell would they be representing parents interests?

    The TEEU represent engineers, electricians etc. I don't think it's within their remit to represent consumers who use electrical products.


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    #8
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    I thought it was the general policy on boards, that if you are going to make a claim that you should back it up with facts/provide a link?

    We're told often enough to read the charter and it has been raised here on the T&L forum when we've been asked for feedback on how the forum is doing time and time again.

    If people want to post on the forum, they are not supposed to make sweeping generalisations and conjectures and they need to provide evidence.


    From the T&L Charter:





    This stuff appears again and again and is allowed to remain. Again, mods put the charter together.

    WTF? Thanks for pointing out how the charter was formed, I'd pretty much guessed that that's how it happened alright though!

    Ya sure a lot of generalisations and conjecture have been put forward in the first post... However, I do recall endakenny's above claims were put out before in a previous post about the NPC (or claims very similar)... Hence why I'm trying to ascertain where he's coming from before I ask him to try a Google search first then get back to us.

    Is that OK?

    You are also free to report posts too! I think in fairness I do reply by PM to every reported post and act accordingly or give a reason for letting it run.

    Did you report the OP's post?


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    #9
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Armelodie wrote: »
    WTF? Thanks for pointing out how the charter was formed, I'd pretty much guessed that that's how it happened alright though!

    Ya sure a lot of generalisations and conjecture have been put forward in the first post... However, I do recall endakenny's above claims were put out before in a previous post about the NPC (or claims very similar)... Hence why I'm trying to ascertain where he's coming from before I ask him to try a Google search first then get back to us.

    Is that OK?

    You are also free to report posts too! I think in fairness I do reply by PM to every reported post and act accordingly or give a reason for letting it run.

    Did you report the OP's post?

    No I didn't report the post. I've reported plenty over the years, never got a reply to any of them from anyone.

    I make the point about the charter because you are effectively defending the OPs post by saying it might be conjecture from another thread.

    I can't say I remember any thread recently about the NPC but I still don't see why possible conjecture on one thread makes it ok for a new thread to based nli that conjecture, if he wants to post about NPC he should be providing evidence not basing his conjectures on other conjectures.

    Surely that should be a given?


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    #10
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    In fairness to enda, he only asked why the teachers' unions haven't questioned the NPC on their actions/inactions and, since the teachers' unions are supposed to represent teachers' interests and teachers' interests typically include what they feel is best for the students, if the NPC is not acting in the best interests of the students then arguably, the teachers' unions should be taking them to task on it.

    I'm purely playing devils advocate on the OP's post here by the way. Right now, I have no opinion on the topic being discussed, only that the OP might be being somewhat harshly treated, even if his post is very vague and light on evidence, to put it mildly.


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    #11
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    This is the thread I'm referring to.

    HERE ...

    Nobody reported that generalisation in the first post either... (And the reason why I let it run (and yes I did consider questioning it at the time too) was that the member seemed to be au-fait with the workings of the govt./NPC. as they displayed a good knowledge of union matters in other posts, so I took it in good faith that they were correct )...

    So basically ...(as I'm still a mod, doing what I think a mod should do, even though nobody reported the post!)...

    Is this where you are coming from endakenny?


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    #12
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    RealJohn wrote: »
    In fairness to enda, he only asked why the teachers' unions haven't questioned the NPC on their actions/inactions and, since the teachers' unions are supposed to represent teachers' interests and teachers' interests typically include what they feel is best for the students, if the NPC is not acting in the best interests of the students then arguably, the teachers' unions should be taking them to task on it.

    I'm purely playing devils advocate on the OP's post here by the way. Right now, I have no opinion on the topic being discussed, only that the OP might be being somewhat harshly treated, even if his post is very vague and light on evidence, to put it mildly.

    But parents are adults? Surely they are able to represent themselves without needing to get the teachers union to do it for them ?


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    #13
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    No I didn't report the post. I've reported plenty over the years, never got a reply to any of them from anyone.

    I've just been a mod since Christmas, I think I've PM'd every person who's reported so far, and taken the time to debate my decisions by PM, and logged the action ive taken with any reported post (which ive rarely seen any other mod do from any other forums)and offered members the oppertunity to try another mod if they weren't happy. And to my knowledge I don't think other mods discuss reported posts with the reporter. They read and act -or don't act - on the post (and that's enough for any mod volunteering their time at all hours)... So basically ...report the post as per charter request. I will reply by PM.(Primarily so I don't have to justify mods actions on-thread or respond to criticisms of modding on-thread)
    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    I make the point about the charter because you are effectively defending the OPs post by saying it might be conjecture from another thread.
    . Again,I haven't defended him, I want to know where he is getting his conjecture from... Conjecture isn't facts, its speculation. Because it is conjecture it doesn't mean its true for sure...but it doesn't mean its false either ...let's let him get the facts and then we can debate the points made.

    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    I can't say I remember any thread recently about the NPC
    see link above..
    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    but I still don't see why possible conjecture on one thread makes it ok for a new thread to based nli that conjecture, if he wants to post about NPC he should be providing evidence not basing his conjectures on other conjectures.

    Surely that should be a given?

    Sure... Perhaps the other conjecture is true though (as I took it to be at the time on the other thread for the above reasons)... The burden of proof is on his side though and that is indeed a given.


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    #14
    endakenny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭endakenny


    Armelodie wrote: »
    This is the thread I'm referring to.

    HERE ...

    Nobody reported that generalisation in the first post either... (And the reason why I let it run (and yes I did consider questioning it at the time too) was that the member seemed to be au-fait with the workings of the govt./NPC. as they displayed a good knowledge of union matters in other posts, so I took it in good faith that they were correct )...

    So basically ...(as I'm still a mod, doing what I think a mod should do, even though nobody reported the post!)...

    Is this where you are coming from endakenny?

    Pretty much.


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    #15
    endakenny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭endakenny


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    On the OP (ignoring the probabilities that have been mentioned), teacher unions are there to represent teachers, why the hell would they be representing parents interests?

    The TEEU represent engineers, electricians etc. I don't think it's within their remit to represent consumers who use electrical products.

    The point is that the NPC believes that the JCSA will work but it would be in secondary teachers' interests for the ASTI and the TUI to question whether or not the NPC has consulted the parents of pupils who will be subject to the JCSA before Don Myers made the statement on the subject.

    http://www.independent.ie/life/family/learning/parents-will-trust-teachers-to-assess-junior-cert-papers-30176134.html


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    #16
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    But parents are adults? Surely they are able to represent themselves without needing to get the teachers union to do it for them ?
    Teachers are adults too but as we saw from the Haddington debacle, we can't be trusted to act in our own interests so why would you assume that parents can? I imagine the vast majority of parents would either trust the NPC or have little or no idea about it and little or no idea about what the proposed new junior cert entails and what the implications might be for their children.


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    #17
    TheDriver
    Registered Users Posts: 12,393 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    NPC has always been an strange organisation and I have indeed wondered who they represent. When the standardised school year is being discussed, their name crops up a bit but seem to have a voice stronger than a union for some reason especially when it comes to half days etc
    When parents ring in giving out about why do we no longer have half days etc, I always like to tell them that their organisation lobbied for it.....


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    #18
    seavill
    Registered Users Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭seavill


    Enda do you want to answer any of the questions I put to you following your first post?


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    #19
    endakenny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭endakenny


    seavill wrote: »
    Enda do you want to answer any of the questions I put to you following your first post?
    I did. Check post 15. Furthermore, if teachers are critical of the NPC then it's OK for other members of the public to do the same.

    Given that the NPC has never criticised the Department of Education, it is reasonable to assume that the NPC is at least partly-funded by the Department. What evidence is there that the NPC has a mandate from parents?


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    #20
    seavill
    Registered Users Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭seavill


    endakenny wrote: »
    I did. Check post 15. Furthermore, if teachers are critical of the NPC then it's OK for other members of the public to do the same.

    Given that the NPC has never criticised the Department of Education, it is reasonable to assume that the NPC is at least partly-funded by the Department. What evidence is there that the NPC has a mandate from parents?

    Quoting an article in the Independent does not answer any of the questions I posed to you, all that article says is that the NPC were in favour of the JCSA and trusted teachers to do it.

    Have you any proof to say it is funded, I have no idea if it is or not but you have now twice stated is as almost fact but it is currently nothing but your opinions have you any proof?

    What mandate do the NPC have? well the NPC as explained before is made up of members of local branches that have signed up to the NPC, those local branches have elected members in a school, those members are parents elected by their own parents usually.

    I asked you none of which you have appeard to answer:

    What business is it of the teaching unions who the NPC represent? The unions are there to deal with the government in terms of working conditions for their members.

    The NPC is a representative body for the various parents councils in each school around the country, provided they have signed up as members. It represents the interests of those parents councils, which in turn represent the interset of the parents in those schools so who do you think it reprsents if not the parents of pupils?

    Have you any link so show that it receives funding from the government or is this just something you made up?

    Again how do you know if the parents councils were asked or not about the JCSA?


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    #21
    endakenny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭endakenny


    seavill wrote: »
    What business is it of the teaching unions who the NPC represent? The unions are there to deal with the government in terms of working conditions for their members.

    The NPC is a representative body for the various parents councils in each school around the country, provided they have signed up as members. It represents the interests of those parents councils, which in turn represent the interset of the parents in those schools so who do you think it reprsents if not the parents of pupils?

    Have you any link so show that it receives funding from the government or is this just something you made up?

    Again how do you know if the parents councils were asked or not about the JCSA?
    If the NPC is making teachers' lives difficult then it is the teacher unions' business. If the NPC doesn't actually represent parents then the unions can convince the parents associations of secondary schools throughout the country of the problems that could arise from the JCSA.

    I don't have access to NPC financial records. An educated guess is not defamation. Has the NPC ever criticised the Department? If not, then an inference can be drawn from it.

    Organisations that are in the public eye are fair game for public criticism. That's the nature of democracy.


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    #22
    seavill
    Registered Users Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭seavill


    Who the the NPC represent according to you so if they don't represent the parents, the NPC almost like a union is made up of members of a branch, a branch which is then memeber of the NPC, who do you say the NPC represent if they don't represent the parents, you have now claimed that twice, all be it in the form of a question rather than a claim, I'm sure to keep yourself out of trouble.

    An educated guess is misleading though if not defamation. You are claiming it must be but you have no proof to suggest that is the case so I do feel you are wrong to be putting this out there until you back up your claims. I could take an educated guess that you are a massive follower of Fine Gael by your name here and that everything you post here has political background and is being done for a reason, to do nothing but stir it - doesn't make it true but with it being an educated guess I believe that I am right so as its an educated guess it can't be defamation.

    One quick google brought up an article from a few years back where the NPC criticised a TD for saying in the Dail that the increase in class size by 1 pupil would make no real difference.

    The NPC do receive grant funding from the Department of Education, again a quick google found that. Would have been much easier to find this infomraiton first to help put across a logical argument rather than what appears to be just waffle.
    https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2013-07-03a.294


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    #23
    killbillvol2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭killbillvol2


    endakenny wrote: »
    If the NPC is making teachers' lives difficult then it is the teacher unions' business. If the NPC doesn't actually represent parents then the unions can convince the parents associations of secondary schools throughout the country of the problems that could arise from the JCSA.

    I don't have access to NPC financial records. An educated guess is not defamation. Has the NPC ever criticised the Department? If not, then an inference can be drawn from it.

    Organisations that are in the public eye are fair game for public criticism. That's the nature of democracy.

    Actually the NPC has regularly criticised the department. They have taken part in numerous joint campaigns against education cuts with the INTO (Not sure if they also dealt with TUI or ASTI but I'd be surprised if they hadn't). Most recently they supported a postcard campaign to TDs.

    That information was easy to find on their website but sure why bother researching facts when you can just throw unfounded statements out with impunity?

    I'd also like to see proof that they're funded by government. I do know (as a fact) that Parents' Associations pay an affiliation fee to join NPC.


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    #24
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    For what it's worth here's a link to NPC Primary Annual report from 2012.. PDF HERE

    income (from "continuing activities") is about 600k yearly by the looks of things.
    Don't know exactly how much of that income is from govt. or local subscriptions from local parents councils or whatever! but it says here..

    ...The key risks facing the Company are that its core projects and activities are reliant on continued government funding. [Pg. 15] ...

    Anyhow.. do a few google searches first endakenny then get back to the statements you have made with all the suppositions. maybe go back to your original posts and back up all the statements then PM me the facts, then we can discuss. I think it does raise some valid questions though.
    Thread Closed for now...

    MOD:


This discussion has been closed.
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