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New Political Party
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11-05-2014 2:40pm#1I feel that Ireland needs a new political party and a complete overhaul of the constitution. I wish to start up a new party with the goal of being a productive and national alliance that can make a difference to irish society by the end of this decade. Quite a mean task to achieve within five and a half years for a 20 year old. As I've only recently started to ponder what might be my objectives and what my ideas for a new Ireland might be I must admit I haven't came up with a whole lot, but I have come up with an idea of how I believe Ireland should be governed. I believe this model would benefit the citizens and people who reside in this state best, and make those elected and who hold political office more accountable.
Abolish all forms of government in their present form. How would we do this, place the following questions to the people in a referendum.
1. Abolish the offices of President, Taoiseach, Tanaiste, all ministerial portfolios, Dáil Éireann, Seanad and councils.
2. Create the new offices of president and vice-president. Making the president the head of state and government and the vice-president second in line should the president be impeached, resign or die in office.
3. Allow ministerial positions to be held by private citizens of the state.
4. Each county to be represented by a minimum of 1 TD. The allocation of the number of TDs per county is subject to the number of people living within the county. For every 90,000 people there shall be 1 TD. (Example will be given at the end)
5. Two-thirds of the national parliament (Dail Eireann) to be elected on a national stage.
6. For every 30,000 people resident in the state there should be 1 TD to represent them on a national level.
7. Each county to have it's own council with a directly elected mayor to act as head of that council.
8. For every 5,000 people resident in the county there should be 1 councillor to represent them. (Example will be given at the end).
9. Either abolish the Seanad or the following;
9.1 Each county will elect a senator to represent them at national level and 55% of the Seanad will be elected on a national level.
Example for County and National TDs:
Dublin which currently has a population of 1.27 million people would be represented by 14TDs.
Leitrim which currently has a population of 32,000 people would be represented by 1 TD even though they are under the 90,000 needed per TD as each county will have one TD regardless of population size.
All political positions would be elected directly by the citizens of the state. In the case of ministerial positions they would be given on the advice of the president to make up his/her cabinet with the approval of 60% of the national parliament. Of which 25% of the opposition must vote in favour for each candidate to be approved.
Please don't be cynical about change and say nothing will never happen. Anything can happen once effort, thought and passion is put into it making others believe the goal is possible to achieve and can be do e with the support of like minded people. Please feel free to give constructive criticism, if there is anything which is not understandable I apologise if my piece is badly worded and feel free to ask for further understanding on the specified issue.
Thank you to all who take the time to read my post and who reply to it.0
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While I appreciate your desire for change, we get these posts very frequently on the politics forum. Basically, you'd be very hard pressed to achieve any change with a fresh party without any finances, supporters or recognition.. You'd be a lot better off joining an established party and trying to change things from there.
Above all, your policies would require us to abolish the Irish constitution so you'd be up against a lot.0 -
While I appreciate your desire for change, we get these posts very frequently on the politics forum. Basically, you'd be very hard pressed to achieve any change with a fresh party without any finances, supporters or recognition.. You'd be a lot better off joining an established party and trying to change things from there.
Above all, your policies would require us to abolish the Irish constitution so you'd be up against a lot.
I understand how hard it would be to achieve the goal which I have set myself. I don't expect it too happen over night or even for any of these changes to happen within this decade, but most definitely I expect for what I believe in too happen by the end if the next decade if the people so wish to join me on my journey for change.
Reason I don't want to join an already existent party is I don't particularly agree with any of them as a whole. I admire each party for different policies and feel none wholly represent me.
On the question of the irish constitution I believe it is flawed and outdated. Irish people need to get over our colonial past and move on from the held belief that our constitution is sacred as it marked the end of our colonial past. We need a new constitution if this country is ever going to achieve what it can.0 -
Can we abolish Sinn Fein while we are at it?0
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Arthur Beesley wrote: »Can we abolish Sinn Fein while we are at it?
You can't necessarily abolish a political party. This can only be done if the party members decide to disband, this abolishing itself.
I don't particularly agree with anything Sinn Fein have too offer and feel they'd do more damage economically than they would be of benefit. People will vote for them and other radicalists as they are fed up with the status quo.
This is a good reason for a new sensible party which believes in actual change should be established.0 -
You can't necessarily abolish a political party. This can only be done if the party members decide to disband, this abolishing itself.
I don't particularly agree with anything Sinn Fein have too offer and feel they'd do more damage economically than they would be of benefit. People will vote for them and other radicalists as they are fed up with the status quo.
This is a good reason for a new sensible party which believes in actual change should be established.
Thanks. There's a lesson in there for you. Turkey's don't vote for Christmas.0 -
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We need a new constitution if this country is ever going to achieve what it can.
You claim the constitution is a post imperialistic hang over then design a system based on the out dated County system. Why does Leitrim need a council and why does a Leitrim vote carry 3 times the weigh of a Dublin one. It's like you took the negative points of the US's electoral college system and transplanted them to Ireland0 -
Arthur Beesley wrote: »Thanks. There's a lesson in there for you. Turkey's don't vote for Christmas.
Which is exactly why this country will remain in the **** for as long as it remains in it's current form.
Does anyone ever stop to think that the President of Ireland who is directly elected by the citizens of this country holds almost no power and is just a ceremonial position.
Whereas the Taoiseach who holds immense power is elected by the members of his party and by virtue his constituents.
Quite amazing if you think about it. The powerful one is not necessarily accountable to the people as a whole.0 -
LeinsterDub wrote: »You claim the constitution is a post imperialistic hang over then design a system based on the out dated County system. Why does Leitrim need a man and why does a Leitrim vote carry 3 times the weigh of a Dublin one. It's like you took the negative points of the US's electoral college system and transplanted them to Ireland
I would never impose such a thing on any country. I believe the American system is completely flawed and only damages Americas economy and power, which is pretty evident over the past few years.
Reason that Leitrim should be represented is because it's people are entitled to have a representative.
The reason why two-thirds of the national parliament would be elected on a national basis is to stop TDs getting elected on the basis of getting Mrs Murphy her council house or Mr Byrne his fuel allowance and for fixing the pot holes on local roads. TDs should act in the national interest. In the United States us representatives are elected on a state basis, not on a national basis across the states.0 -
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Which is exactly why this country will remain in the **** for as long as it remains in it's current form.
Does anyone ever stop to think that the President of Ireland who is directly elected by the citizens of this country holds almost no power and is just a ceremonial position.
Whereas the Taoiseach who holds immense power is elected by the members of his party and by virtue his constituents.
Quite amazing if you think about it. The powerful one is not necessarily accountable to the people as a whole.
We elect the president in the basis that he / she has no power. This is a given and is known by each and every voter. If the role had power we wouldn't have novelty candidates like Michael D Higgins elected.
The leader of a party at the time of an election is known. So a vote for FF or FG is endorsing their part leader for the role of Taoiseach. The switchover between Ahern and Cowen isn't covered by this, but in effect that would be the same as Ahern and Cowen being president and Vice President, then Ahern resigning.
Irish president is elected for 6 or 7 years. If he / she had more power how would he / she be accountable until the next election? How is that any different to a Taoiseach losing his position because his party got decimated at the latest general election? At least the duration of a government is shorter.0 -
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LeinsterDub wrote: »Why? Why not the people of Dublin north inner city or the people of Kilkenny city?
They also deserve to be represented and would be represented so by the number if TDs allocated to their counties. They would be benefit much more if local government was given actual power and had their councillor a working for them and their TDs working mainly for the national interest. I feel it'd be a much better model.
If you get down to the whole idea of why not have a TD for inner City Dublin you could then also argue when not have one just for Inchicore or Ballybough. It would achieve nothing as every man would be out for himself which is pretty much what is already in place.0 -
They also deserve to be represented and would be represented so by the number if TDs allocated to their counties. They would be benefit much more if local government was given actual power and had their councillor a working for them and their TDs working mainly for the national interest. I feel it'd be a much better model.
If you get down to the whole idea of why not have a TD for inner City Dublin you could then also argue when not have one just for Inchicore or Ballybough. It would achieve nothing as every man would be out for himself which is pretty much what is already in place.
When you can't answer this fundamental question it doesn't say much about how well though out this proposal is.0 -
Arthur Beesley wrote: »We elect the president in the basis that he / she has no power. This is a given and is known by each and every voter. If the role had power we wouldn't have novelty candidates like Michael D Higgins elected.
The leader of a party at the time of an election is known. So a vote for FF or FG is endorsing their part leader for the role of Taoiseach. The switchover between Ahern and Cowen isn't covered by this, but in effect that would be the same as Ahern and Cowen being president and Vice President, then Ahern resigning.
Irish president is elected for 6 or 7 years. If he / she had more power how would he / she be accountable until the next election? How is that any different to a Taoiseach losing his position because his party got decimated at the latest general election? At least the duration of a government is shorter.
Yes I do understand that people recognise and know that the president has no power. I never stated otherwise. What I said was the president is directly elected by the people whereas the Taoiseach is not.
Stating that the people vote for a party based on their leader is ridiculous. They vote for the party based on it's policies and also on what that particular TD can offer their constituency. If you looked at polls you'd find that the most popular party doesn't always have the most popular leader. Fine Gael are normally the most popular party since they entered government. Busy the most popular leader has generally been Micheal Martin or Gerry Adams. Your thinking that people vote for the party based on their leader and want that party leader to be Taoiseach is clearly flawed by this fact alone.
The president and parliament would run for 4/5 years and of course they would be held accountable by the people. There would be a process out in place to impeach the president or call for his/her resignation. And obviously Micheal D Higgins would never get elected if the position was a powerful one.0 -
LeinsterDub wrote: »When you can't answer this fundamental question it doesn't say much about how well though out this proposal is.
What is the fundamental question you wish to be answered ?
As I've stated in my opening remarks. I've only just begun working on this so not everything is necessarily set in stone as of yet. But I do absolutely believe in the system for elected representatives which I have outlined and will not change my position on that belief. I see it as the best way the people can be represented and their interests to be benefited in the best way.0 -
Yes I do understand that people recognise and know that the president has no power. I never stated otherwise. What I said was the president is directly elected by the people whereas the Taoiseach is not.
Stating that the people vote for a party based on their leader is ridiculous. They vote for the party based on it's policies and also on what that particular TD can offer their constituency. If you looked at polls you'd find that the most popular party doesn't always have the most popular leader. Fine Gael are normally the most popular party since they entered government. Busy the most popular leader has generally been Micheal Martin or Gerry Adams. Your thinking that people vote for the party based on their leader and want that party leader to be Taoiseach is clearly flawed by this fact alone.
The president and parliament would run for 4/5 years and of course they would be held accountable by the people. There would be a process out in place to impeach the president or call for his/her resignation. And obviously Micheal D Higgins would never get elected if the position was a powerful one.
Party leader popularity is meaningless - you may think that my comment about how the Taosieach is elected is ridiculous, but that is how it works.
A significant majority of the county would despise having Adams as president. Same with Martin. They may be somewhat popular at the moment but a key reason is they aren't in government so have little chance to mess up.
I suggest you go back to the drawing board.0 -
What is the fundamental question you wish to be answered ?
As I've stated in my opening remarks. I've only just begun working on this so not everything is necessarily set in stone as of yet. But I do absolutely believe in the system for elected representatives which I have outlined and will not change my position on that belief. I see it as the best way the people can be represented and their interests to be benefited in the best way.
Why are Counties the cornerstone of your proposal when there are so many better ways to group people together?
Why not take a fundamental look at the make up of local government in this country. Why do we need 36 local authorities in Ireland? When there are so many better ways to economicly and geographically group areas?0 -
Arthur Beesley wrote: »Party leader popularity is meaningless - you may think that my comment about how the Taosieach is elected is ridiculous, but that is how it works.
A significant majority of the county would despise having Adams as president. Same with Martin. They may be somewhat popular at the moment but a key reason is they aren't in government so have little chance to mess up.
I suggest you go back to the drawing board.
I know how it works and I think that the person who has power and makes decisions for the people, but isn't elected by them is a ridiculous system which should be abolished.
A significant majority despise the fact that Barack Obama is the president of the United States but yet he still is.
If you remember before the election how popular Eamon Gilmore and the Labour Party were I think you might find that they both a revert unpopular right now since entering government.
Your pint that Martin is popular because he isn't in government but will become unpopular once in government is a ridiculous point to make on the basis of my idea being flaws as it is common sense that that is normally what happens when politicians gain power they usually become less popular than they once were.0 -
Actually I kinda like the American system. It's been destroyed by imperial America, by too much money, by heightened partisanship which may not happen here. The idea of a directly elected Vice President and president with powers to hire private citizens to the cabinet massively increases the pool of talent to choose from.
We shouldn't have the electoral collage though. Direct elections.0 -
LeinsterDub wrote: »Why are Counties the cornerstone of your proposal when there are so many better ways to group people together?
Why not take a fundamental look at the make up of local government in this country. Why do we need 36 local authorities in Ireland? When there are so many better ways to economicly and geographically group areas?
Counties are not the cornerstone as such to my proposals. I believe that people from each county should be represented on a national level for their interests. If you read my proposal I propose having 26 councils one for each county. Each county can then elect councillor a and a mayor to work for them in their best interests as a county.
I would also possibly propose in having each province represented as it would benefit the provinces as a whole. But this would turn Ireland into Germany creating 4 federal provinces. Although the german model seems to work for them I don't believe it is the best model for Ireland.0 -
I know how it works and I think that the person who has power and makes decisions for the people, but isn't elected by them is a ridiculous system which should be abolished.
A significant majority despise the fact that Barack Obama is the president of the United States but yet he still is.
If you remember before the election how popular Eamon Gilmore and the Labour Party were I think you might find that they both a revert unpopular right now since entering government.
Your pint that Martin is popular because he isn't in government but will become unpopular once in government is a ridiculous point to make on the basis of my idea being flaws as it is common sense that that is normally what happens when politicians gain power they usually become less popular than they once were.
So what point are you even making? Do you think that a majority of people despising the leader is a good think? Or workable? Should your recall / accountability not kick in? Would it not get triggered for every president once he started making tough decisions that affected his popularity?
Look what happens in the US when one party has the presidency and the other controls the Senate and House of Congress. You have a lame duck president that has significantly reduced power.0 -
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Frank Lee Midere wrote: »Actually I kinda like the American system. It's been destroyed by imperial America, by too much money, by heightened partisanship which may not happen here. The idea of a directly elected Vice President and president with powers to hire private citizens to the cabinet massively increases the pool of talent to choose from.
We shouldn't have the electoral collage though. Direct elections.
I don't believe in the electoral college as it isn't actually a democratic way in which the president of the United States is elected. This was best shown when Al Gore won the popular vote but George W Bush won the college vote. In this case Al Gore should've been president as he was elected by the people. Such a scenario would never happen under my proposals. Al Gore would always have been president if my proposal was enacted.
And I agree with the county statement. People in each county actually have their own culture and want what's best for them more so than what's best for their neighbour. So stating that we should pool together geographically makes no sense as it would create some counties going in more than others even though the less fortunate counties voted against the proposals.0 -
Arthur Beesley wrote: »So what point are you even making? Do you think that a majority of people despising the leader is a good think? Or workable? Should your recall / accountability not kick in? Would it not get triggered for every president once he started making tough decisions that affected his popularity?
Look what happens in the US when one party has the presidency and the other controls the Senate and House of Congress. You have a lame duck president that has significantly reduced power.
I don't think the majority of people despising he their is a good thing. I was simply making the point that a sizeable number of people don't like Obama but yet he is their president and makes choices for them.
The reason why a lame duck president can exist is because not all elections are held in the same year in the US. The presidential election is held every for 4 yeas and the senate and representative elections very two years. Thus creating the possibility for a lame duck president with no power.
I would propose all elections are held on the same day. Most likely what would happen is the president and parliament would be of the same party and the idea of power being lost would not exist.
As far as holding the president responsible. You could have a petition to ask the parliament to vote in confidence for the president. This would make either the president resign or the parliament impeach him/her if they are found to be incompetent to run the country effectively.
The same could be done for the vice-president and any member of cabinet or anyone who holds sufficient power and exercises the ability to change laws, etc.0 -
LeinsterDub wrote: »You claim the constitution is a post imperialistic hang over then design a system based on the out dated County system. Why does Leitrim need a council and why does a Leitrim vote carry 3 times the weigh of a Dublin one. It's like you took the negative points of the US's electoral college system and transplanted them to Ireland
It is the USA system pretty much. I think the reasons behind]d this weight is so that smaller place are not passed over as to bigger places. If you have a weighted system all they have to do is make sure the big weights go for them and forget about everywhere else. I do not like the system myself for a place like Ireland as we are small enought but in the US it has its place0 -
martingriff wrote: »It is the USA system pretty much. I think the reasons behind]d this weight is so that smaller place are not passed over as to bigger places. If you have a weighted system all they have to do is make sure the big weights go for them and forget about everywhere else. I do not like the system myself for a place like Ireland as we are small enought but in the US it has its place
I don't believe it is the us system though as the president is elected by the national college and directly by the people in a popular vote. The vice-president isn't elected directly at all. And us representatives are elected on a state wide basis. What I'm suggesting is to elect TDs on a county wide and a nation wide basis. All elections would also be held on the same day unlike the us where they are held on different years which creates a lame duck president.
I don't know of any system which what I propose actually exists. It would be the first of it's kind in the world.0 -
I would never impose such a thing on any country. I believe the American system is completely flawed and only damages Americas economy and power, which is pretty evident over the past few years.
Reason that Leitrim should be represented is because it's people are entitled to have a representative.
The reason why two-thirds of the national parliament would be elected on a national basis is to stop TDs getting elected on the basis of getting Mrs Murphy her council house or Mr Byrne his fuel allowance and for fixing the pot holes on local roads. TDs should act in the national interest. In the United States us representatives are elected on a state basis, not on a national basis across the states.
Yet your proposals in the OP is pretty much the US system0 -
martingriff wrote: »Yet your proposals in the OP is pretty much the US system
As I've stated already it clearly isn't. Although it may resemble the US system it is not the US system. I suppose you could say it's a cross between the system we already have and US system, but it also holds new ideas and I believe it is much more fit for purpose.0 -
I don't believe it is the us system though as the president is elected by the national college and directly by the people in a popular vote. The vice-president isn't elected directly at all. And us representatives are elected on a state wide basis. What I'm suggesting is to elect TDs on a county wide and a nation wide basis. All elections would also be held on the same day unlike the us where they are held on different years which creates a lame duck president.
I don't know of any system which what I propose actually exists. It would be the first of it's kind in the world.
I said pretty much like the US system I did not say exactly. The weighing system you propose is the US system. In relation to the US elections. The Senate and the House do elections every 2 years. They elect 1/3 of senate every 4 years and the entire house every 2 (I think that is 2 little should be 4 but another debate for another thread). The president is elected every 4 years and get elected at the same time as the Senate and House elections of this year. Do we need a shake up in Ireland YES I do not think your way is it0 -
This is a common misconception about the US system. In fact a simple first pass the post system would lead to the small places counting more. Cpg grey explains it excellentlymartingriff wrote: »It is the USA system pretty much. I think the reasons behind]d this weight is so that smaller place are not passed over as to bigger places. If you have a weighted system all they have to do is make sure the big weights go for them and forget about everywhere else. I do not like the system myself for a place like Ireland as we are small enought but in the US it has its place
The Trouble with the Electoral College: http://youtu.be/7wC42HgLA4k0 -
martingriff wrote: »I said pretty much like the US system I did not say exactly. The weighing system you propose is the US system. In relation to the US elections. The Senate and the House do elections every 2 years. They elect 1/3 of senate every 4 years and the entire house every 2 (I think that is 2 little should be 4 but another debate for another thread). The president is elected every 4 years and get elected at the same time as the Senate and House elections of this year. Do we need a shake up in Ireland YES I do not think your way is it
I apologise then, sorry for not reading your reply properly. In that case then yes I guess I would agree with you that it resembles the us system. But as I've said before I believe the system which I propose is much more effective.
The weighting system though would never necessarily go in favour of Leitrim. The reason being that I propose two-thirds of TDs be elected on a nation wide basis. They would most likely vote in favour if the national interest (policies affecting the majority) the majority of people live in the cities which are in the most populated counties, ie. Dublin, Galway, Cork, etc. which would also consist of the most county wide elected TDs thus pretty much always cancelling out Leitrim's vote nationally.
The way in which the us elections work always make for the possibility if a lame duck president in which case there may as well not be a president at all. My way does not have anything in common with how us elections are held. I am in favour in holding all if the elections on the same day.0 -
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LeinsterDub wrote: »This is a common misconception about the US system. In fact a simple first pass the post system would lead to the small places counting more. Cpg grey explains it excellently
agree with this statement. The electoral college does not work in favour of States like Rhode Island or Vermont although it is made out to. It works against them pretty much no matter what the case may be. The electoral college is not fit for purpose anywhere in the world and is a threat to democracy so is the idea of a prime minister or a monarch. I believe the head of state and government should both be directly elected by the people of each country and both positions be held by the same person.0
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