New Political Party

jamieek · 11-05-2014 2:40pm #1

I feel that Ireland needs a new political party and a complete overhaul of the constitution. I wish to start up a new party with the goal of being a productive and national alliance that can make a difference to irish society by the end of this decade. Quite a mean task to achieve within five and a half years for a 20 year old. As I've only recently started to ponder what might be my objectives and what my ideas for a new Ireland might be I must admit I haven't came up with a whole lot, but I have come up with an idea of how I believe Ireland should be governed. I believe this model would benefit the citizens and people who reside in this state best, and make those elected and who hold political office more accountable.

Abolish all forms of government in their present form. How would we do this, place the following questions to the people in a referendum.

1. Abolish the offices of President, Taoiseach, Tanaiste, all ministerial portfolios, Dáil Éireann, Seanad and councils.
2. Create the new offices of president and vice-president. Making the president the head of state and government and the vice-president second in line should the president be impeached, resign or die in office.
3. Allow ministerial positions to be held by private citizens of the state.
4. Each county to be represented by a minimum of 1 TD. The allocation of the number of TDs per county is subject to the number of people living within the county. For every 90,000 people there shall be 1 TD. (Example will be given at the end)
5. Two-thirds of the national parliament (Dail Eireann) to be elected on a national stage.
6. For every 30,000 people resident in the state there should be 1 TD to represent them on a national level.
7. Each county to have it's own council with a directly elected mayor to act as head of that council.
8. For every 5,000 people resident in the county there should be 1 councillor to represent them. (Example will be given at the end).
9. Either abolish the Seanad or the following;
9.1 Each county will elect a senator to represent them at national level and 55% of the Seanad will be elected on a national level.

Example for County and National TDs:
Dublin which currently has a population of 1.27 million people would be represented by 14TDs.
Leitrim which currently has a population of 32,000 people would be represented by 1 TD even though they are under the 90,000 needed per TD as each county will have one TD regardless of population size.

All political positions would be elected directly by the citizens of the state. In the case of ministerial positions they would be given on the advice of the president to make up his/her cabinet with the approval of 60% of the national parliament. Of which 25% of the opposition must vote in favour for each candidate to be approved.

Please don't be cynical about change and say nothing will never happen. Anything can happen once effort, thought and passion is put into it making others believe the goal is possible to achieve and can be do e with the support of like minded people. Please feel free to give constructive criticism, if there is anything which is not understandable I apologise if my piece is badly worded and feel free to ask for further understanding on the specified issue.

Thank you to all who take the time to read my post and who reply to it.

Lockstep · 11-05-2014 3:12pm

While I appreciate your desire for change, we get these posts very frequently on the politics forum. Basically, you'd be very hard pressed to achieve any change with a fresh party without any finances, supporters or recognition.. You'd be a lot better off joining an established party and trying to change things from there.

Above all, your policies would require us to abolish the Irish constitution so you'd be up against a lot.

jamieek · 11-05-2014 3:19pm

Lockstep wrote: »

While I appreciate your desire for change, we get these posts very frequently on the politics forum. Basically, you'd be very hard pressed to achieve any change with a fresh party without any finances, supporters or recognition.. You'd be a lot better off joining an established party and trying to change things from there.

Above all, your policies would require us to abolish the Irish constitution so you'd be up against a lot.

I understand how hard it would be to achieve the goal which I have set myself. I don't expect it too happen over night or even for any of these changes to happen within this decade, but most definitely I expect for what I believe in too happen by the end if the next decade if the people so wish to join me on my journey for change.

Reason I don't want to join an already existent party is I don't particularly agree with any of them as a whole. I admire each party for different policies and feel none wholly represent me.

On the question of the irish constitution I believe it is flawed and outdated. Irish people need to get over our colonial past and move on from the held belief that our constitution is sacred as it marked the end of our colonial past. We need a new constitution if this country is ever going to achieve what it can.

Arthur Beesley · 11-05-2014 3:22pm

Can we abolish Sinn Fein while we are at it?

jamieek · 11-05-2014 3:25pm

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

Can we abolish Sinn Fein while we are at it?

You can't necessarily abolish a political party. This can only be done if the party members decide to disband, this abolishing itself.

I don't particularly agree with anything Sinn Fein have too offer and feel they'd do more damage economically than they would be of benefit. People will vote for them and other radicalists as they are fed up with the status quo.

This is a good reason for a new sensible party which believes in actual change should be established.

Arthur Beesley · 11-05-2014 3:30pm

jamieek wrote: »

You can't necessarily abolish a political party. This can only be done if the party members decide to disband, this abolishing itself.

I don't particularly agree with anything Sinn Fein have too offer and feel they'd do more damage economically than they would be of benefit. People will vote for them and other radicalists as they are fed up with the status quo.

This is a good reason for a new sensible party which believes in actual change should be established.

Thanks. There's a lesson in there for you. Turkey's don't vote for Christmas.

LeinsterDub · 11-05-2014 3:32pm

jamieek wrote: »

We need a new constitution if this country is ever going to achieve what it can.

You claim the constitution is a post imperialistic hang over then design a system based on the out dated County system. Why does Leitrim need a council and why does a Leitrim vote carry 3 times the weigh of a Dublin one. It's like you took the negative points of the US's electoral college system and transplanted them to Ireland

jamieek · 11-05-2014 3:34pm

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

Thanks. There's a lesson in there for you. Turkey's don't vote for Christmas.

Which is exactly why this country will remain in the **** for as long as it remains in it's current form.

Does anyone ever stop to think that the President of Ireland who is directly elected by the citizens of this country holds almost no power and is just a ceremonial position.
Whereas the Taoiseach who holds immense power is elected by the members of his party and by virtue his constituents.

Quite amazing if you think about it. The powerful one is not necessarily accountable to the people as a whole.

jamieek · 11-05-2014 3:38pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

You claim the constitution is a post imperialistic hang over then design a system based on the out dated County system. Why does Leitrim need a man and why does a Leitrim vote carry 3 times the weigh of a Dublin one. It's like you took the negative points of the US's electoral college system and transplanted them to Ireland

I would never impose such a thing on any country. I believe the American system is completely flawed and only damages Americas economy and power, which is pretty evident over the past few years.

Reason that Leitrim should be represented is because it's people are entitled to have a representative.

The reason why two-thirds of the national parliament would be elected on a national basis is to stop TDs getting elected on the basis of getting Mrs Murphy her council house or Mr Byrne his fuel allowance and for fixing the pot holes on local roads. TDs should act in the national interest. In the United States us representatives are elected on a state basis, not on a national basis across the states.

LeinsterDub · 11-05-2014 3:42pm

jamieek wrote: »

Reason that Leitrim should be represented is because it's people are entitled to have a representative.

Why? Why not the people of Dublin north inner city or the people of Kilkenny city?

Arthur Beesley · 11-05-2014 3:44pm

jamieek wrote: »

Which is exactly why this country will remain in the **** for as long as it remains in it's current form.

Does anyone ever stop to think that the President of Ireland who is directly elected by the citizens of this country holds almost no power and is just a ceremonial position.
Whereas the Taoiseach who holds immense power is elected by the members of his party and by virtue his constituents.

Quite amazing if you think about it. The powerful one is not necessarily accountable to the people as a whole.

We elect the president in the basis that he / she has no power. This is a given and is known by each and every voter. If the role had power we wouldn't have novelty candidates like Michael D Higgins elected.

The leader of a party at the time of an election is known. So a vote for FF or FG is endorsing their part leader for the role of Taoiseach. The switchover between Ahern and Cowen isn't covered by this, but in effect that would be the same as Ahern and Cowen being president and Vice President, then Ahern resigning.

Irish president is elected for 6 or 7 years. If he / she had more power how would he / she be accountable until the next election? How is that any different to a Taoiseach losing his position because his party got decimated at the latest general election? At least the duration of a government is shorter.

jamieek · 11-05-2014 3:46pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Why? Why not the people of Dublin north inner city or the people of Kilkenny city?

They also deserve to be represented and would be represented so by the number if TDs allocated to their counties. They would be benefit much more if local government was given actual power and had their councillor a working for them and their TDs working mainly for the national interest. I feel it'd be a much better model.

If you get down to the whole idea of why not have a TD for inner City Dublin you could then also argue when not have one just for Inchicore or Ballybough. It would achieve nothing as every man would be out for himself which is pretty much what is already in place.

LeinsterDub · 11-05-2014 3:49pm

jamieek wrote: »

They also deserve to be represented and would be represented so by the number if TDs allocated to their counties. They would be benefit much more if local government was given actual power and had their councillor a working for them and their TDs working mainly for the national interest. I feel it'd be a much better model.

If you get down to the whole idea of why not have a TD for inner City Dublin you could then also argue when not have one just for Inchicore or Ballybough. It would achieve nothing as every man would be out for himself which is pretty much what is already in place.

When you can't answer this fundamental question it doesn't say much about how well though out this proposal is.

jamieek · 11-05-2014 3:51pm

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

We elect the president in the basis that he / she has no power. This is a given and is known by each and every voter. If the role had power we wouldn't have novelty candidates like Michael D Higgins elected.

The leader of a party at the time of an election is known. So a vote for FF or FG is endorsing their part leader for the role of Taoiseach. The switchover between Ahern and Cowen isn't covered by this, but in effect that would be the same as Ahern and Cowen being president and Vice President, then Ahern resigning.

Irish president is elected for 6 or 7 years. If he / she had more power how would he / she be accountable until the next election? How is that any different to a Taoiseach losing his position because his party got decimated at the latest general election? At least the duration of a government is shorter.

Yes I do understand that people recognise and know that the president has no power. I never stated otherwise. What I said was the president is directly elected by the people whereas the Taoiseach is not.

Stating that the people vote for a party based on their leader is ridiculous. They vote for the party based on it's policies and also on what that particular TD can offer their constituency. If you looked at polls you'd find that the most popular party doesn't always have the most popular leader. Fine Gael are normally the most popular party since they entered government. Busy the most popular leader has generally been Micheal Martin or Gerry Adams. Your thinking that people vote for the party based on their leader and want that party leader to be Taoiseach is clearly flawed by this fact alone.

The president and parliament would run for 4/5 years and of course they would be held accountable by the people. There would be a process out in place to impeach the president or call for his/her resignation. And obviously Micheal D Higgins would never get elected if the position was a powerful one.

jamieek · 11-05-2014 3:54pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

When you can't answer this fundamental question it doesn't say much about how well though out this proposal is.

What is the fundamental question you wish to be answered ?

As I've stated in my opening remarks. I've only just begun working on this so not everything is necessarily set in stone as of yet. But I do absolutely believe in the system for elected representatives which I have outlined and will not change my position on that belief. I see it as the best way the people can be represented and their interests to be benefited in the best way.

Arthur Beesley · 11-05-2014 4:02pm

jamieek wrote: »

Yes I do understand that people recognise and know that the president has no power. I never stated otherwise. What I said was the president is directly elected by the people whereas the Taoiseach is not.

Stating that the people vote for a party based on their leader is ridiculous. They vote for the party based on it's policies and also on what that particular TD can offer their constituency. If you looked at polls you'd find that the most popular party doesn't always have the most popular leader. Fine Gael are normally the most popular party since they entered government. Busy the most popular leader has generally been Micheal Martin or Gerry Adams. Your thinking that people vote for the party based on their leader and want that party leader to be Taoiseach is clearly flawed by this fact alone.

The president and parliament would run for 4/5 years and of course they would be held accountable by the people. There would be a process out in place to impeach the president or call for his/her resignation. And obviously Micheal D Higgins would never get elected if the position was a powerful one.

Party leader popularity is meaningless - you may think that my comment about how the Taosieach is elected is ridiculous, but that is how it works.

A significant majority of the county would despise having Adams as president. Same with Martin. They may be somewhat popular at the moment but a key reason is they aren't in government so have little chance to mess up.

I suggest you go back to the drawing board.

LeinsterDub · 11-05-2014 4:03pm

jamieek wrote: »

What is the fundamental question you wish to be answered ?

As I've stated in my opening remarks. I've only just begun working on this so not everything is necessarily set in stone as of yet. But I do absolutely believe in the system for elected representatives which I have outlined and will not change my position on that belief. I see it as the best way the people can be represented and their interests to be benefited in the best way.

Why are Counties the cornerstone of your proposal when there are so many better ways to group people together?

Why not take a fundamental look at the make up of local government in this country. Why do we need 36 local authorities in Ireland? When there are so many better ways to economicly and geographically group areas?

jamieek · 11-05-2014 4:06pm

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

Party leader popularity is meaningless - you may think that my comment about how the Taosieach is elected is ridiculous, but that is how it works.

A significant majority of the county would despise having Adams as president. Same with Martin. They may be somewhat popular at the moment but a key reason is they aren't in government so have little chance to mess up.

I suggest you go back to the drawing board.

I know how it works and I think that the person who has power and makes decisions for the people, but isn't elected by them is a ridiculous system which should be abolished.

A significant majority despise the fact that Barack Obama is the president of the United States but yet he still is.

If you remember before the election how popular Eamon Gilmore and the Labour Party were I think you might find that they both a revert unpopular right now since entering government.
Your pint that Martin is popular because he isn't in government but will become unpopular once in government is a ridiculous point to make on the basis of my idea being flaws as it is common sense that that is normally what happens when politicians gain power they usually become less popular than they once were.

Frank Lee Midere · 11-05-2014 4:09pm

Actually I kinda like the American system. It's been destroyed by imperial America, by too much money, by heightened partisanship which may not happen here. The idea of a directly elected Vice President and president with powers to hire private citizens to the cabinet massively increases the pool of talent to choose from.

We shouldn't have the electoral collage though. Direct elections.

jamieek · 11-05-2014 4:10pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Why are Counties the cornerstone of your proposal when there are so many better ways to group people together?

Why not take a fundamental look at the make up of local government in this country. Why do we need 36 local authorities in Ireland? When there are so many better ways to economicly and geographically group areas?

Counties are not the cornerstone as such to my proposals. I believe that people from each county should be represented on a national level for their interests. If you read my proposal I propose having 26 councils one for each county. Each county can then elect councillor a and a mayor to work for them in their best interests as a county.

I would also possibly propose in having each province represented as it would benefit the provinces as a whole. But this would turn Ireland into Germany creating 4 federal provinces. Although the german model seems to work for them I don't believe it is the best model for Ireland.

Arthur Beesley · 11-05-2014 4:14pm

jamieek wrote: »

I know how it works and I think that the person who has power and makes decisions for the people, but isn't elected by them is a ridiculous system which should be abolished.

A significant majority despise the fact that Barack Obama is the president of the United States but yet he still is.

If you remember before the election how popular Eamon Gilmore and the Labour Party were I think you might find that they both a revert unpopular right now since entering government.
Your pint that Martin is popular because he isn't in government but will become unpopular once in government is a ridiculous point to make on the basis of my idea being flaws as it is common sense that that is normally what happens when politicians gain power they usually become less popular than they once were.

So what point are you even making? Do you think that a majority of people despising the leader is a good think? Or workable? Should your recall / accountability not kick in? Would it not get triggered for every president once he started making tough decisions that affected his popularity?

Look what happens in the US when one party has the presidency and the other controls the Senate and House of Congress. You have a lame duck president that has significantly reduced power.

jamieek · 11-05-2014 4:15pm

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Actually I kinda like the American system. It's been destroyed by imperial America, by too much money, by heightened partisanship which may not happen here. The idea of a directly elected Vice President and president with powers to hire private citizens to the cabinet massively increases the pool of talent to choose from.

We shouldn't have the electoral collage though. Direct elections.

I don't believe in the electoral college as it isn't actually a democratic way in which the president of the United States is elected. This was best shown when Al Gore won the popular vote but George W Bush won the college vote. In this case Al Gore should've been president as he was elected by the people. Such a scenario would never happen under my proposals. Al Gore would always have been president if my proposal was enacted.

And I agree with the county statement. People in each county actually have their own culture and want what's best for them more so than what's best for their neighbour. So stating that we should pool together geographically makes no sense as it would create some counties going in more than others even though the less fortunate counties voted against the proposals.

jamieek · 11-05-2014 4:21pm

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

So what point are you even making? Do you think that a majority of people despising the leader is a good think? Or workable? Should your recall / accountability not kick in? Would it not get triggered for every president once he started making tough decisions that affected his popularity?

Look what happens in the US when one party has the presidency and the other controls the Senate and House of Congress. You have a lame duck president that has significantly reduced power.

I don't think the majority of people despising he their is a good thing. I was simply making the point that a sizeable number of people don't like Obama but yet he is their president and makes choices for them.

The reason why a lame duck president can exist is because not all elections are held in the same year in the US. The presidential election is held every for 4 yeas and the senate and representative elections very two years. Thus creating the possibility for a lame duck president with no power.

I would propose all elections are held on the same day. Most likely what would happen is the president and parliament would be of the same party and the idea of power being lost would not exist.

As far as holding the president responsible. You could have a petition to ask the parliament to vote in confidence for the president. This would make either the president resign or the parliament impeach him/her if they are found to be incompetent to run the country effectively.

The same could be done for the vice-president and any member of cabinet or anyone who holds sufficient power and exercises the ability to change laws, etc.

martingriff · 11-05-2014 4:40pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

You claim the constitution is a post imperialistic hang over then design a system based on the out dated County system. Why does Leitrim need a council and why does a Leitrim vote carry 3 times the weigh of a Dublin one. It's like you took the negative points of the US's electoral college system and transplanted them to Ireland

It is the USA system pretty much. I think the reasons behind]d this weight is so that smaller place are not passed over as to bigger places. If you have a weighted system all they have to do is make sure the big weights go for them and forget about everywhere else. I do not like the system myself for a place like Ireland as we are small enought but in the US it has its place

jamieek · 11-05-2014 4:44pm

martingriff wrote: »

It is the USA system pretty much. I think the reasons behind]d this weight is so that smaller place are not passed over as to bigger places. If you have a weighted system all they have to do is make sure the big weights go for them and forget about everywhere else. I do not like the system myself for a place like Ireland as we are small enought but in the US it has its place

I don't believe it is the us system though as the president is elected by the national college and directly by the people in a popular vote. The vice-president isn't elected directly at all. And us representatives are elected on a state wide basis. What I'm suggesting is to elect TDs on a county wide and a nation wide basis. All elections would also be held on the same day unlike the us where they are held on different years which creates a lame duck president.

I don't know of any system which what I propose actually exists. It would be the first of it's kind in the world.

martingriff · 11-05-2014 4:46pm

jamieek wrote: »

I would never impose such a thing on any country. I believe the American system is completely flawed and only damages Americas economy and power, which is pretty evident over the past few years.

Reason that Leitrim should be represented is because it's people are entitled to have a representative.

The reason why two-thirds of the national parliament would be elected on a national basis is to stop TDs getting elected on the basis of getting Mrs Murphy her council house or Mr Byrne his fuel allowance and for fixing the pot holes on local roads. TDs should act in the national interest. In the United States us representatives are elected on a state basis, not on a national basis across the states.

Yet your proposals in the OP is pretty much the US system

jamieek · 11-05-2014 4:48pm

martingriff wrote: »

Yet your proposals in the OP is pretty much the US system

As I've stated already it clearly isn't. Although it may resemble the US system it is not the US system. I suppose you could say it's a cross between the system we already have and US system, but it also holds new ideas and I believe it is much more fit for purpose.

martingriff · 11-05-2014 4:55pm

jamieek wrote: »

I don't believe it is the us system though as the president is elected by the national college and directly by the people in a popular vote. The vice-president isn't elected directly at all. And us representatives are elected on a state wide basis. What I'm suggesting is to elect TDs on a county wide and a nation wide basis. All elections would also be held on the same day unlike the us where they are held on different years which creates a lame duck president.

I don't know of any system which what I propose actually exists. It would be the first of it's kind in the world.

I said pretty much like the US system I did not say exactly. The weighing system you propose is the US system. In relation to the US elections. The Senate and the House do elections every 2 years. They elect 1/3 of senate every 4 years and the entire house every 2 (I think that is 2 little should be 4 but another debate for another thread). The president is elected every 4 years and get elected at the same time as the Senate and House elections of this year. Do we need a shake up in Ireland YES I do not think your way is it

LeinsterDub · 11-05-2014 4:59pm

martingriff wrote: »

It is the USA system pretty much. I think the reasons behind]d this weight is so that smaller place are not passed over as to bigger places. If you have a weighted system all they have to do is make sure the big weights go for them and forget about everywhere else. I do not like the system myself for a place like Ireland as we are small enought but in the US it has its place

This is a common misconception about the US system. In fact a simple first pass the post system would lead to the small places counting more. Cpg grey explains it excellently

The Trouble with the Electoral College: http://youtu.be/7wC42HgLA4k

jamieek · 11-05-2014 5:01pm

martingriff wrote: »

I said pretty much like the US system I did not say exactly. The weighing system you propose is the US system. In relation to the US elections. The Senate and the House do elections every 2 years. They elect 1/3 of senate every 4 years and the entire house every 2 (I think that is 2 little should be 4 but another debate for another thread). The president is elected every 4 years and get elected at the same time as the Senate and House elections of this year. Do we need a shake up in Ireland YES I do not think your way is it

I apologise then, sorry for not reading your reply properly. In that case then yes I guess I would agree with you that it resembles the us system. But as I've said before I believe the system which I propose is much more effective.

The weighting system though would never necessarily go in favour of Leitrim. The reason being that I propose two-thirds of TDs be elected on a nation wide basis. They would most likely vote in favour if the national interest (policies affecting the majority) the majority of people live in the cities which are in the most populated counties, ie. Dublin, Galway, Cork, etc. which would also consist of the most county wide elected TDs thus pretty much always cancelling out Leitrim's vote nationally.

The way in which the us elections work always make for the possibility if a lame duck president in which case there may as well not be a president at all. My way does not have anything in common with how us elections are held. I am in favour in holding all if the elections on the same day.

jamieek · 11-05-2014 5:06pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

This is a common misconception about the US system. In fact a simple first pass the post system would lead to the small places counting more. Cpg grey explains it excellently

agree with this statement. The electoral college does not work in favour of States like Rhode Island or Vermont although it is made out to. It works against them pretty much no matter what the case may be. The electoral college is not fit for purpose anywhere in the world and is a threat to democracy so is the idea of a prime minister or a monarch. I believe the head of state and government should both be directly elected by the people of each country and both positions be held by the same person.

LeinsterDub · 11-05-2014 5:08pm

jamieek wrote: »

Counties are not the cornerstone as such to my proposals. I believe that people from each county should be represented on a national level for their interests. If you read my proposal I propose having 26 councils one for each county. Each county can then elect councillor a and a mayor to work for them in their best interests as a county.

I have read it and I don't understand why leitrim continues to exist in your model. Why not sligo-leitrim, why not a Shannon central County? Why are you persisting with imperial designed counties that are older than the constitution you claim needs replacing

jamieek · 11-05-2014 5:15pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I have read it and I don't understand why leitrim continues to exist in your model. Why not sligo-leitrim, why not a Shannon central County? Why are you persisting with imperial designed counties that are older than the constitution you claim needs replacing

Because they are two different counties which inhabit people who have different needs and wants. Well if people want to vote on changing the boundaries of their counties, abolishing counties and it creating new ones then so be it. I'd allow them the opportunity to vote on such a motion. I am calling for a whole redesign if the country.

Why though should the people of Sligo decide who represents who the people of Leitrim and vice-versa. Sligo has a population twice the size of Leitrim meaning that the TD chosen to represent them on the national stage would always be Sligo's choice and in which case Leitrim may as well not exist or abstain from voting altogether as they'd never have voice to represent them.

Also why should Leitrim not exist. I'm sure if the people of Leitrim were giving the choice they'd choose to keep their county as it is and not amalgamate with another county/counties. I'm sure they are a proud people and want to stay just as they are.

ezra_pound · 11-05-2014 5:25pm

One county one vote!

jamieek · 11-05-2014 5:30pm

ezra_pound wrote: »

One county one vote!

I don't believe this would be in the interests if anyone as it is unfair to the like of Dublin who has a population 42 times bigger than Leitrim. It isn't wholly representative of the choice and will of the people. That is why if the Seanad was retained it would have a one county one vote system, but the majority of senators would be elected on a national basis.

LeinsterDub · 11-05-2014 5:31pm

jamieek wrote: »

Also why should Leitrim not exist. I'm sure if the people of Leitrim were giving the choice they'd choose to keep their county as it is and not amalgamate with another county/counties. I'm sure they are a proud people and want to stay just as they are.

Because counties where designed hundreds of years ago and no longer represent the social, economic or development needs of the nation. If someone was designing local authorities in Ireland today and had no knowledge of the county system you can be sure none of the counties would exist as they are today

jamieek · 11-05-2014 5:35pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Because counties where designed hundreds of years ago and no longer represent the social, economic or development needs of the nation. If someone was designing local authorities in Ireland today and had no knowledge of the county system you can be sure none of the counties would exist as they are today

This is a fair and valid point. Which is why I propose counties are given limited representation nationally and local government (councils) are given more powers to govern each county.

ezra_pound · 11-05-2014 5:46pm

jamieek wrote: »

This is a fair and valid point. Which is why I propose counties are given limited representation nationally and local government (councils) are given more powers to govern each county.

What extra powers should local government be given?

ezra_pound · 11-05-2014 5:47pm

jamieek wrote: »

This is a fair and valid point. Which is why I propose counties are given limited representation nationally and local government (councils) are given more powers to govern each county.

Local government can be given extra powers at any time by the dail as needed.

jamieek · 11-05-2014 5:52pm

ezra_pound wrote: »

Local government can be given extra powers at any time by the dail as needed.

But the Dail will never give them the powers they need as this would take away the TDs and ministers powers.

jamieek · 11-05-2014 5:53pm

ezra_pound wrote: »

What extra powers should local government be given?

Everything that affects people on a local level.

ezra_pound · 11-05-2014 6:02pm

jamieek wrote: »

Everything that affects people on a local level.

Give one example.

jamieek · 11-05-2014 10:04pm

ezra_pound wrote: »

Give one example.

Well we have IDA which does great work to being investment and jobs to Ireland. I would also propose that each county represent itself on trade missions to try and get investment into their county. This would be the job of the local councillor a.

Another proposal would be to hand over primary education to local councils. Thus allowing councils to run the schools independently and allowing the department to create a more unique and dynamic educational system allowing students to thrive.

If you have recommendations if be happy too hear them.

Also as instated in my op I am only after starting to work on this idea. I have not came up with exact and definite policies as of yet.

Annasopra · 11-05-2014 10:22pm

jamieek wrote: »

What is the fundamental question you wish to be answered ?

As I've stated in my opening remarks. I've only just begun working on this so not everything is necessarily set in stone as of yet. But I do absolutely believe in the system for elected representatives which I have outlined and will not change my position on that belief. I see it as the best way the people can be represented and their interests to be benefited in the best way.

What if people joined you and wanted to change your proposals?

ArmaniJeanss · 11-05-2014 10:46pm

Why do all these terrible proposals get based on the county system, something which is at best barely adequate for the GAA (though you could argue its still terribly flawed in its use there).
Why would you think 'lets modernise the system by running it on arbitary 17th century borders'?

jamieek · 11-05-2014 10:51pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

What if people joined you and wanted to change your proposals?

If people wanted join me I would be absolutely pleased and happy with their decision to do so. Obviously with any new alliance there would be some differences. I would be open to constructive dialogue were issues and policies would be positively discussed. Obviously a compromise would have to be came too. I would be pretty strong though on my beliefs and fight hard for them.

There would be certain things that would absolutely not be able to be changed and are set in stone. I would be open to change for instance on equal rights for all people.

jamieek · 11-05-2014 10:55pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Why do all these terrible proposals get based on the county system, something which is at best barely adequate for the GAA (though you could argue its still terribly flawed in its use there).
Why would you think 'lets modernise the system by running it on arbitary 17th century borders'?

You can't abolish counties. People would never vote for that. People are loyal to their counties and have a passionate love towards them. I would never in my life vote to abolish dublin I love it and have immense pride in my county. The abolishment of Dublin would bring me to tears.

If not have a county system what exactly would you propose ?

ArmaniJeanss · 11-05-2014 11:11pm

jamieek wrote: »

You can't abolish counties. People would never vote for that. People are loyal to their counties and have a passionate love towards them. I would never in my life vote to abolish dublin I love it and have immense pride in my county. The abolishment of Dublin would bring me to tears.

If not have a county system what exactly would you propose ?

Well, we have a system at the moment which (at Dail level anyway) has effectively abandoned the county system. Constituencies are cross county, mix of counties, 1 or 2 don't even have a county in their name (Dun Laoghaire).
And the people have accepted that.

Re the bit in bold, I'm sorry to tell you Dublin County has already been abolished politically - split into 4 parts. I live in one of those parts, Fingal. And again the people have accepted that.

jamieek · 11-05-2014 11:16pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Well, we have a system at the moment which (at Dail level anyway) has effectively abandoned the county system. Constituencies are cross county, mix of counties, 1 or 2 don't even have a county in their name (Dun Laoghaire).
And the people have accepted that.

Re the bit in bold, I'm sorry to tell you Dublin County has already been abolished politically - split into 4 parts. I live in one of those parts, Fingal. And again the people have accepted that.

The system in it's current form hasn't abolished counties which has been suggested. It just doesn't elect politicians on a county by county basis. There is a big difference between the two. I am not in favour of abolishing counties and I am not in favour of amalgamating counties either. I myself live in Dublin Bay North. The reason why the current system is in place is because TDs are elected on a constituency basis. I propose one TD per 90,000 constituents is elected and the remaining two-thirds of TDs are elected on a nation wide basis. All counties will have a minimum of 1 TD to represent them at national level.

sarumite · 12-05-2014 10:45pm

I understand that the OP wants to make changes. I just don't understand specifically why the OP wants to make changes and what the OP thinks that the changes suggested will fix the problem.

New Political Party

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