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Venice holding referendum on secession from Italy

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    #32
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    GaelMise wrote: »
    Either the Italian Government refuses to recognise the new state in which case it cannot be excluded from the EU by virtue of being part of Italy, or the Italian government eventually does recognise the new State in which case it would be unlaw full for the EU to intervene as the EU cannot intervene in the affairs of memberstates in areas in which competence has not been granted to it.

    The people of that part of Italy are EU citizens and as such have representation in the EU Parliment, which is the sovereign body of the EU according to Treaty, the EU Parliament would have to vote to exclude those representatives from the parliment, the European Commission doesn’t have the power to order their exclusion. But calling such a vote would fall foul of the EU prohibition on interference in the internal democratic and constitutional affairs of an EU member state.

    There is simply no legal mechanism for the EU to throw out a region of the EU on the basis of that region becoming a new independant state.

    I think this has been gone over quite a bit in respect of Scotland, which would similarly be a new state created from an existing Member State. There is no remaining doubt that Scotland would have to reapply for EU membership, and the same would apply to the Veneto.

    As Iwasfrozen says, Venetians are EU citizens by virtue of being Italian citizens. There is no separate EU citizenship which one may or does hold independently of national citizenship in a Member State - if you ceased to be a citizen of Ireland and became a US citizen, you would no longer be an EU citizen.

    This was covered as well during the Lisbon referendums, where the No side claimed incorrectly that Lisbon created an EU citizenship that was separate from your national citizenship.

    If Venice leaves Italy, Venice will have to reapply for EU membership just as is the case for Scotland.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #33
    corkleo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24 ✭corkleo


    Well, we should note that this plebiscito per l'indipendenza del veneto, is not even 10% as serious as the Crimean facts are.
    The veneti votes were collected online, by a private site, plebiscito.eu, and right now there are people arguing about how simple it was to register many times and throw inside the database fake votes with fake names.

    For sure there will be tons of debates about this thing, but I wouldn't start worrying about the future of a united Italy... not in the immediate future, at least.

    Veneti are only proud to be a hardworking, rich and powerful industry district in Italy, they don't feel actually so "non-italians" in the way Scottish or Irish people feel themselves distant from English people (I hope I made myself clear :))


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    #34
    Black Swan
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,226 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    I do not believe this has been the 1st referendum to split the north from the south. My Da was at Milano conference in the late 1990's where there had been such a referendum, and he said that the northern ballot had exceeded 50% to split, but there were no provisions in the Italian constitution for secession. The rationale for the split was the similar to that offered today: that the prosperous north did not want to continue subsidizing the impoverished south. He said there also were delegates from Quebec at the conference, who were attempting to learn how effect secession from Canada, but their referendums were far below half when taken (plus the Canada constitution did not have secession provisions).


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    #35
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Black Swan wrote: »
    I do not believe this has been the 1st referendum to split the north from the south. My Da was at Milano conference in the late 1990's where there had been such a referendum, and he said that the northern ballot had exceeded 50% to split, but there were no provisions in the Italian constitution for secession. The rationale for the split was the similar to that offered today: that the prosperous north did not want to continue subsidizing the impoverished south. He said there also were delegates from Quebec at the conference, who were attempting to learn how effect secession from Canada, but their referendums were far below half when taken (plus the Canada constitution did not have secession provisions).

    You have to wonder how many written constitutions do have secession provisions. I can't imagine it's a lot.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #36
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    corkleo wrote: »
    Veneti are only proud to be a hardworking, rich and powerful industry district in Italy, they don't feel actually so "non-italians" in the way Scottish or Irish people feel themselves distant from English people (I hope I made myself clear :))
    I would imagine Venetians consider themselves "distant" from Neapolitans, for example, in exactly the same way that Scots makes the distinction between themselves and English or Welsh. However, at the same time, Scots are generally happy to refer to themselves as British, in the same way that Venetians and Neapolitans will refer to themselves as Italian.


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    #37
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Black Swan wrote: »
    the prosperous north did not want to continue subsidizing the impoverished south.

    Or depending on who you ask, the hard-working North does not want to continue to be exploited by the corrupt, thieving, idle, criminal South.


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    #38
    corkleo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24 ✭corkleo


    Black Swan wrote: »
    I do not believe this has been the 1st referendum to split the north from the south. My Da was at Milano conference in the late 1990's where there had been such a referendum, and he said that the northern ballot had exceeded 50% to split, but there were no provisions in the Italian constitution for secession. The rationale for the split was the similar to that offered today: that the prosperous north did not want to continue subsidizing the impoverished south. He said there also were delegates from Quebec at the conference, who were attempting to learn how effect secession from Canada, but their referendums were far below half when taken (plus the Canada constitution did not have secession provisions).

    This isn't the first and it won't be the last, but I don't think at all something will be made.
    During all the "Berlusconi era" there was a party in favour of secession and of transforming Italy into a federation of autonomous states (they often quoted "the German example"). During the last elected government back in... I don't even remember, let's say before 2011, the gov ally managed to have the strength required to modify the Constitution (in particular the part saying that Ita republic is one and can't be divided ), but they ended in a lot of talking and shouting (as usual) and they did nothing at all about all their promises. Nowadays, that independence party has destroyed itself with a series of scandals, so there's no one strong enough to make decisions as these.
    djpbarry wrote: »
    I would imagine Venetians consider themselves "distant" from Neapolitans, for example, in exactly the same way that Scots makes the distinction between themselves and English or Welsh. However, at the same time, Scots are generally happy to refer to themselves as British, in the same way that Venetians and Neapolitans will refer to themselves as Italian.

    True, that's correct. I'd say that more or less one veneto every 100 identifies himself as "padano" instead of "italiano".


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    #39
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Nothing to see here... move along...

    This 'online referendum', as has been pointed out, would fail any and all international standards for a plebicite. It doesn't even make an effort to be a real referendum and is designed solely for the purposes of sending a message to Rome. Basically, it's a publicity stunt.

    It's not the first time this has happened in Italy. In the 1990's Umberto Bossi and his Northern League carried out a 'march' along the Po river, culminating in a declaration of independence of Padania. Result? No independence, but it helped to bolster support for their party and ultimately resulted in increased federalism and autonomy for the northern regions.

    The purpose of this 'referendum' is much the same; to wrest greater control from Rome and move in the direction of the special autonomous regions such as Trentino-Alto Adige, who have considerable fiscal autonomy where it comes to things such as taxation.

    Indeed, outside of some ethnically inspired calls for secession in the northern half of Trentino-Alto Adige (basically it's Austrian, Italy got it as a result of World War I and probably shouldn't have, if I'm being honest), there's very little interest in the idea. The southern half (which is ethnically Italian) has zero interest in independence. They have what they want - and ultimately this is what the Veneto wants too.

    So I wouldn't read all that much into this. Recently, both Sardinia and Lombardy have also had simelar online campaigns to leave Italy and join Switzerland (the former of which was received surprisingly warmly by many Swiss who liked the idea of finally having a real navy), but again they're not designed to actually achieve anything other than letting Rome know that they're pissed off.

    It's just one of those grand dramatic gestures that are part of how Italians do politics and another chapter in the never-ending struggle between the fiercely independent regions and the central government.

    Or as Mussolini allegedly once quipped; "governare gli italiani non è impossibile, è inutile" ("to govern the Italians is not impossible, it's just pointless").


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    #40
    AlanG
    Registered Users Posts: 1,415 ✭✭✭AlanG


    GaelMise wrote: »
    Quite unlikely, the people of venice are EU citizens and it would be quite illigal for the EU to take any move to try take that from them unilaterally.

    The EU Would not be taking it from them - They would be giving it up but the people (first generation at least) could still be Italian and EU citizens. The would just not live in the EU.
    Don't forget Greenland did this already but the people are still danish and EU citizens.


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    #41
    AlanG
    Registered Users Posts: 1,415 ✭✭✭AlanG


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    It's not the first time this has happened in Italy.

    I'm pretty sure Lampedusa voted to join Libya in the 90's - As you say nothing to see.


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    #42
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,281 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    AlanG wrote: »
    Don't forget Greenland did this already but the people are still danish and EU citizens.
    That was before there were rules for leaving the EU.


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    #43
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,671 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    It looks from one standpoint the authorities are being pro-active against the perceived more extremist elements
    "
    Italian forces arrest Veneto separatists over alleged plot to attack Venice
    Authorities release footage of 'tank' they say would have been deployed in St Mark's Square on eve of European elections

    " - Guardian.


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    #44
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    It's interesting to see it happening - there seems to be a general move afoot towards this kind of separatism. Since I'd personally favour a Europe of city-states and small countries, I'll be pleased if this comes off for them.

    And Venice has a much longer historical pedigree than Italy, of course.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    Sometimes your political views really baffle me, Scoffy. You support the idea of smaller regions - city states and small countries - just like I do, but you also support (or certainly used to support) seceding vast areas of autonomy and direct sovereign control to a massive body like the EU?
    Can you explain how this works? Because it strikes me as akin to arguing for smaller companies with fewer shareholders, while at the same time supporting gigantic mergers between these companies so that those shareholders have hardly any control over the companies they own shares in, because most of the decisions will be taken by the huge conglomerate which results from all the mergers you also advocate. :p


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    #45
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Sometimes your political views really baffle me, Scoffy. You support the idea of smaller regions - city states and small countries - just like I do, but you also support (or certainly used to support) seceding vast areas of autonomy and direct sovereign control to a massive body like the EU?
    Can you explain how this works? Because it strikes me as akin to arguing for smaller companies with fewer shareholders, while at the same time supporting gigantic mergers between these companies so that those shareholders have hardly any control over the companies they own shares in, because most of the decisions will be taken by the huge conglomerate which results from all the mergers you also advocate. :p

    Actually, it's more arguing for cooperation between multiple small companies to allow them to survive in a world where economies of scale matter. They aren't mergers, and I'm not a supporter of what most Anglophones would mean by "a federal Europe".

    The reason that works (or is at least somewhat intellectually consistent) is because what Anglophone eurosceptics mean by "a federal Europe" isn't really federal at all, but actually just a giant-sized copy of the centralised states they're used to. Ireland is possibly one of the most centralised states around, with no meaningful local or regional government, and we assume that a "federal EU" would be a copy of that. The UK actually does have meaningful regional government - Scotland, Wales, Isle of Man etc are quite distinct legally - but most "UK" eurosceptics are actually English. England is another highly centralised state, and most English people are blissfully unaware of the differences within the union - to the point of not being aware that Scotland prints its own bank notes, for example. So, again, there's a tendency to project the way in which England operates as a state - with no meaningful autonomy outside the centre - onto the idea of the EU as a state.

    So one can be confused by my views if one confuses support for the EU with that particular idea of the EU, but not if one lets go of the idea. The EU isn't a centralised state, isn't even a state, but a framework for cooperation between otherwise independent states - which makes the idea of it as a support structure for more and smaller polities a reasonable one, at least in my view. There's also the point that Westphalian-style sovereignty is a barely meaningful concept for smaller states, so something like the EU is only a way of voluntarily and proactively organising recognition of that ineluctable fact.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #46
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,281 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Part of it is down to order of scale. There is no particularly necessity for Ireland (or many of the other smaller states) to have it's own rules in the design and manufacture of motor vehicles. However, there does need to be rules in the design and manufacture of motor vehicles. Those rules don't particularly need to be hugely different from country to country, so it makes sense for them to be made at an EU / EEA level.
    Scofflaw wrote: »
    England is another highly centralised state
    Much less so than in Ireland - policing, education, health, etc. are (necessarily) much more decentralised, e.g. there are about 50 different police forces organised on a regional or function basis.


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    #47
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Heh. From the sublime to the cor blimey:
    Italian police have arrested 24 Veneto separatists on suspicion of planning a violent campaign aimed at gaining independence for the wealthy region.

    Police said that the group had built a tank, modified from a tractor, that they intended to deploy in St. Mark’s Square in Venice.

    Among those arrested were Flavio Contin, one of the founders of Serenissima Commando, a group that carried out an attack at the bell tower of St. Mark’s Basilica in 1997.

    Also detained were Franco Rocchetta (roketa), a former MP and deputy foreign minister and campaigner for Venetian independence. He founded the Liga Veneta, an original member of the Lega Nord which is a federation of regionalist parties.

    Last month an unofficial referendum was held in which an overwhelming majority of participants voted in favour of leaving Italy, however it has been reported in local press that most of the votes were generated on computers abroad.

    The economic crisis has increased support for independence in the northeastern region of Veneto, where local businesses have been hit hard.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #48
    Eggy Baby!
    Registered Users Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Eggy Baby!


    Interesting story, but would you be able to supply the full article Scofflaw? Cheers.


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    #49
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,281 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Won't a tank be of limited use in Venice? ;)
    Eggy Baby! wrote: »
    Interesting story, but would you be able to supply the full article Scofflaw? Cheers.
    http://www.euronews.com/2014/04/03/veneto-separatists-arrested-by-italian-police/ or similar.


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    #50
    corkleo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24 ✭corkleo


    Eggy Baby! wrote: »
    Interesting story, but would you be able to supply the full article Scofflaw? Cheers.

    The fact of the arrest is true, here the article from the local section of one of the most important Italian newspapers http://corrieredelveneto.corriere.it/veneto/notizie/politica/2014/2-aprile-2014/blitz-contro-indipendentisti-24-arresti-2236075968.shtml
    (google translate should do ;)).
    Also another article about how this fact gathered more attention outside the country than inside: http://www.ilsole24ore.com/art/notizie/2014-04-03/l-inarrestabile-carro-armato-fai-da-te-secessionisti-veneti-conquista-siti-esteri-140108.shtml
    Btw, I seriously doubt these folks would have done anything real apart from saying "I gotta a tank" while having a glass of wine at the bar. Really.


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    #51
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    corkleo wrote: »
    The fact of the arrest is true, here the article from the local section of one of the most important Italian newspapers http://corrieredelveneto.corriere.it/veneto/notizie/politica/2014/2-aprile-2014/blitz-contro-indipendentisti-24-arresti-2236075968.shtml
    (google translate should do ;)).
    It's not "one of the most important Italian newspapers", it's a regional paper (hint: it's in the name). Of course, even regional papers can be well regarded throughout Italy, but honestly this one wouldn't be one of them.
    Btw, I seriously doubt these folks would have done anything real apart from saying "I gotta a tank" while having a glass of wine at the bar. Really.
    I'd agree. I'm actually a little perplexed as to why people here are taking the entire thing so seriously.


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    #52
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    It's not "one of the most important Italian newspapers", it's a regional paper (hint: it's in the name). Of course, even regional papers can be well regarded throughout Italy, but honestly this one wouldn't be one of them.

    I'd agree. I'm actually a little perplexed as to why people here are taking the entire thing so seriously.

    Not so seriously, I think. It's just an interesting straw in the wind.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #53
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Not so seriously, I think. It's just an interesting straw in the wind.
    Not really though. As I already pointed out, separatist politics are nothing new in Italy - there was even a 'declaration of independence' by the north in the 1990's.

    So it's really only a 'straw in the wind' if you've only started paying attention to Italian politics recently; in other words, not a terribly good one. Anyone who's been observing it for decades would just shrug their shoulders - which is what the articles that corkleo linked to essentially do.


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    #54
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Not really though. As I already pointed out, separatist politics are nothing new in Italy - there was even a 'declaration of independence' by the north in the 1990's.

    So it's really only a 'straw in the wind' if you've only started paying attention to Italian politics recently; in other words, not a terribly good one. Anyone who's been observing it for decades would just shrug their shoulders - which is what the articles that corkleo linked to essentially do.

    Neither Catalan nor Scottish separatism is exactly new either.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #55
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Neither Catalan nor Scottish separatism is exactly new either.
    Neither are they the same. Northern Italian separatism (with the possible exception of Aldo Adige) is quite a different beast politically. There's actually very little real support for it in reality and has instead been largely about greater autonomy, in particular where it comes to the burden of paying for the south.

    This is not to say that there are fringe groups in the regions that want to break away and are even willing to use militant means to do so, but such groups exist everywhere and to think that this is a serious possibility would be to grossly misunderstand the rather theatrical nature of how Italian politics works.


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    #56
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Neither are they the same. Northern Italian separatism (with the possible exception of Aldo Adige) is quite a different beast politically. There's actually very little real support for it in reality and has instead been largely about greater autonomy, in particular where it comes to the burden of paying for the south.

    This is not to say that there are fringe groups in the regions that want to break away and are even willing to use militant means to do so, but such groups exist everywhere and to think that this is a serious possibility would be to grossly misunderstand the rather theatrical nature of how Italian politics works.

    To be honest, I'm not sure how realistic Catalan or Scottish independence is either - nor, in the case of Scotland, whether there's even majority support for it.

    I admit to not ever having taken the idea of the "Serenissima Commando" even slightly seriously. They sound rather less dangerous than Scotland's "Settlerwatch".

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #57
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    To be honest, I'm not sure how realistic Catalan or Scottish independence is either - nor, in the case of Scotland, whether there's even majority support for it.
    Where Venetian and Catalan or Scottish independence would differ is that the latter two actually do have broad support - not necessarily majorities and neither may either be realistic - but they do have broad support. Actual independence doesn't really have that much support in places like the Veneto, and support for these causes are in reality support for greater autonomy, using the theatrical threat of independence to achieve this aim.

    There's a history of this in Italian politics (militant fringe groups aside) and it's not the first or last time that this strategy will be used to rattle the gilded cage of the political elite in Rome.
    I admit to not ever having taken the idea of the "Serenissima Commando" even slightly seriously. They sound rather less dangerous than Scotland's "Settlerwatch".
    Serious enough to start a thread on the subject though. My attitude to these events are instead "meh", while seemingly the Italian press is more bemused by how foreigners are taking it all so seriously.


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    #58
    corkleo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24 ✭corkleo


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    It's not "one of the most important Italian newspapers", it's a regional paper (hint: it's in the name). Of course, even regional papers can be well regarded throughout Italy, but honestly this one wouldn't be one of them.

    Well, as I said, this is the regional part of the newspaper 'Corriere della sera' which is the first paper for sold copies in Italy (or maybe the second, I don't recall).
    Corriere del veneto has a separate staff from the national edition tho, that's true :)


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    #59
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    corkleo wrote: »
    Well, as I said, this is the regional part of the newspaper 'Corriere della sera' which is the first paper for sold copies in Italy (or maybe the second, I don't recall).
    Corriere del veneto has a separate staff from the national edition tho, that's true :)
    Ahhh... fair enough. Must be why I'd never heard of it, although I used to read its parent paper.


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