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Apply for own role...?

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  • 23-04-2014 9:26am
    #1
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭


    Hi folks,

    I'm just looking for some varied opinion on a situation that I find myself in at work.

    I have worked as an Engineer in a company for 15 years. For the last 10 years I've occupied a particular position with an external client. Nobody else has worked on this site other than to cover my holidays/absence.

    With my role is a company car, and this is the crux. My company want to change my terms and conditions so as that I lose the use of a vehicle. Granted, my salary would increase, but the increase is very little, and wouldn't cover vehicle expenses. It wouldn't even cover an annual bus ticket!

    They have also announced 1 redundancy, and they have included me in the 'at risk' group. This is where the two occurrences meet; the way that they are going to change the terms of my role is by using my role as a 'Suitable Alternative Role' for everyone at risk.

    However they have told me that if I apply for my own role that I will get it without question over anybody else who applies. BUT, and here's my question: if I am working for the same company, in the same client's office, on the same machinery, doing the same work and in the same shift, can this be seen as a different role? Or is it a way to change my T&C's without having to negotiate anything with me?

    I'm not looking for legal advice; I'm married to a solicitor. I just want opinions from the good folk here.

    Thanks....


Comments

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    #2
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    I know several staff in a large company who have had to reapply for their roles (same role) three times, as part of three reorganisations/redundancy programmes in the past few years.

    It's not an uncommon occurence


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    #3
    blindsider
    Registered Users Posts: 2,016 ✭✭✭blindsider


    Is your role being made redundant? It doesn't sound like it to me. If your role is not going, then I fail to see how you can be 'at risk'.

    What are their criteria for redundancy? (This really shouldn't apply to you, but just in case...) AFAIK they should be setting out the grounds on which they will decide who is leaving.

    Have they offered Voluntary redundancy? Might go against them if they don't - certainly doesn't look good.. Do you think anyone would take it if they did?

    IMO The 'Suitable Alternative Role' is rubbish. You've been doing this job for 10 yrs - any performance issues? Is the role still profitable for your organisation? I guess they COULD move you (in theory) but they'd need some sort of justification IMO - otherwise you could possibly leave and claim Constructive Dismissal, arguing "10 yrs, no performance issues, tried to take my car, then moved me, I felt victimised etc etc" - you'd get sympathy at the EAT I suspect.

    "However they have told me that if I apply for my own role that I will get it without question over anybody else who applies"

    I don't suppose they put this in writing did they? I'd write down who when where etc - you might need the contemporaneous note sometime.

    I don't see how they can say this, and have a fair competition for the job. Messy business.

    Seems to me that the car is the real issue here. How much is it worth to you in real terms? BIK etc. How far do you travel?

    I sympathise with your situation, but you may have to bite the bullet re the car. In some ways, this is no different than having a pay decrease imposed on you - it's not nice at all, but it does happen.

    Could you agree that you stay in the job, and are not considered for redundancy, get a bit of an increase, and delay losing the car for 6 months or a year? When is the lease up? Could/would you buy it? Would they offer you a decent price?


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    #4
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,671 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Yeah - but it's not the OP's current role which s/he can apply for, it's a similar one but with lower compensation, specifically not inlcuding a company car. And that's a big change.


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    #5
    Doom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,381 ✭✭✭Doom


    A friend of mine was in a similar situation, having been told he has to re-apply for his job, due to changes, he called their bluff and refused to sign it, as generally speaking it was the same job, but called something else.
    Others gave in and signed, years later he's still there and the others have been "Managed" out.
    If you have a union get some advice off them.


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    #6
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Doom wrote: »
    A friend of mine was in a similar situation, having been told he has to re-apply for his job, due to changes, he called their bluff and refused to sign it, as generally speaking it was the same job, but called something else.
    Others gave in and signed, years later he's still there and the others have been "Managed" out.
    If you have a union get some advice off them.

    Won't work without a union, is done regularly in non unionised industries tbh


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    #7
    blindsider
    Registered Users Posts: 2,016 ✭✭✭blindsider


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Yeah - but it's not the OP's current role which s/he can apply for, it's a similar one but with lower compensation, specifically not inlcuding a company car. And that's a big change.

    Hmmm - I responded to this earlier and it never made it to the page....hmmm!

    If the job spec hasn't changed, then the job hasn't. Remuneration and car are Compensation, not part of the role.

    If the OP has been doing the job for 10 yrs, and the job is staying, then how can he be put forward for redundancy? The role must be redundant first - and not just some tweaking of the Comp & Bens associated with the role.


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    #8
    blindsider
    Registered Users Posts: 2,016 ✭✭✭blindsider


    Stheno wrote: »
    Won't work without a union, is done regularly in non unionised industries tbh


    If need be, a solicitor will give accurate advice, and assist through the process....and the OP's wife just happens to be one....;)


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    #9
    Bandana boy
    Registered Users Posts: 4,325 ✭✭✭Bandana boy


    How hard would you find it to get alternative work ?
    What have they paid previously in redundancies ?

    You could call their bluff and refuse to apply for the new role and see if they make you Redundant.
    This role despite being the exact same role could not be seen as an equivalent role due to the change in terms and conditions.

    Assuming they pay more than the bare minimum, times 15 years could be a nice sum and buy enough time to find a different job.


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    #10
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Thanks for the replies everybody.
    blindsider wrote: »
    What are their criteria for redundancy? (This really shouldn't apply to you, but just in case...) AFAIK they should be setting out the grounds on which they will decide who is leaving.

    They have set out criteria. I'd be marked top on them all.
    blindsider wrote: »
    Have they offered Voluntary redundancy? Might go against them if they don't - certainly doesn't look good.. Do you think anyone would take it if they did?

    They did. I've been told that if I applied for voluntary I probably wouldn't be considered for it.
    blindsider wrote: »
    "However they have told me that if I apply for my own role that I will get it without question over anybody else who applies"

    I don't suppose they put this in writing did they? I'd write down who when where etc - you might need the contemporaneous note sometime.

    I don't see how they can say this, and have a fair competition for the job.

    No. Not in writing. I agree about the competition.
    blindsider wrote: »
    Could you agree that you stay in the job, and are not considered for redundancy, get a bit of an increase, and delay losing the car for 6 months or a year?
    blindsider wrote: »
    If the job spec hasn't changed, then the job hasn't. Remuneration and car are Compensation, not part of the role.

    This is the angle that I might come from.
    Bandana boy wrote:
    You could call their bluff and refuse to apply for the new role and see if they make you Redundant.

    I asked what would happen if I didn't apply for the role and I was told that it would be tantamount to resignation.

    Thanks again everyone. Fingers crossed....


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    #11
    Bandana boy
    Registered Users Posts: 4,325 ✭✭✭Bandana boy


    Baffled... wrote: »


    I asked what would happen if I didn't apply for the role and I was told that it would be tantamount to resignation.

    .

    Would you be happy enough to get redundancy from them ?
    I would guess you have a strong case to refuse the change in your compensation and refuse to apply for the new role ,they would have a hard case to prove that this was a resignation.


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    #12
    blindsider
    Registered Users Posts: 2,016 ✭✭✭blindsider


    OP - if they wouldn't accept you for Voluntary, then they can't use involuntary!!

    Perhaps I'm over-simplifying this, but if your role is not being lost, and you're happy to stay in it, and there's no reason for you not to stay (e.g. performance) then why should you have to re-apply? You've been in the job 10 years - nothing's changed, except they want to reduce costs. Well, good for them - but they shouldn't be threatening your livelihood.

    AS above - be reasonable - you'll probably lose the car - but you should be able to minimise the loss to some extent.

    BTW - could you provide the services to the client yourself? As in, could you set up your own company and offer the service? Or, would the client themselves hire you?

    You might need to check for a 'non-compete' clause in your contract?


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    #13
    InReality
    Registered Users Posts: 1,374 ✭✭✭InReality


    AFAIK a company cannot change your terms and conditions without you agreeing.
    So as the job will be staying , the only thing they can do in this case is offering voluntary redundancy or leaving you as you are.
    I don't think you have anything to gain by agreeing with their resign and reapply plan ..
    I might be wrong of course.


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