The disaster that is the Irish Film industry.

Romo · 14-02-2005 8:53pm #1

You may have come across all the hype about the Irish film industry, how it's a world beater and how its offering people around the world a window into Irish society. Actually, the majority of films never get a commercial release and just vanish and of those that do most go straight to video.

Most films set in Ireland invariably have foreign leads, almost always miscast, Kevin Spacey, Julia Roberts, Matt Keeslar anyone? This is especially so with regards to female leads, often cast on the pretext of commercial attractiveness, again completely bogus, you get the American Kerri Russell cast in Mad about Mambo on this pretext, and it makes £65,000 dollars at the US box office. Or the inability of Irish directors, for what ever reason, to cast or find Irish female leads. Sheridan, Pearson, Jordan, Crowley, take a bow.

And then you've got the real disasters, that are just hushed up. One film called "Chaos", directed by Geraldine Creed, who made the unforgettable "The Sun, The Moon and The Stars", is reported to have had a budget of $50,000,000, which is about the budget for the Arts Council for an entire year, and its never seen the light of day.

Anyway, forget about the hype, here's a breakdown on how Irish films have done at the US box office. You can forget about most of the films between 1 and 20 as they are just US studio films like "Gangs of New York" that just have an Irish theme. The general rule of thumb is that a film has to make two and a half times its budget to even break even. So a very modest film with a budget of E 6,000,000 will have to make $15-16,000,000 to break even or a film like "Michael Collins" that had a budget of around $27,000,000 would have had to make $60,000,000.

1 Road to Perdition
DW $104,454,762 2,332 $22,079,481 1,797 7/12/02
2 Patriot Games
Par. $83,351,587 2,396 $18,511,191 2,365 6/5/92
3 Gangs of New York
Mira. $77,812,000 2,340 $9,496,870 1,504 12/20/02
4 The Crying Game
Mira. $62,548,947 1,097 $101,107 6 11/27/92
5 Far and Away
Uni. $58,883,840 1,885 $10,194,520 1,583 5/22/92
6 The Devil's Own
Sony $42,868,348 2,504 $14,274,503 2,504 3/28/97
7 Blown Away
MGM $30,156,002 1,862 $10,424,873 1,862 7/1/94
8 In the Name of the Father
Uni. $25,096,862 688 $109,805 4 12/31/93
9 Waking Ned Devine
FoxS $24,792,251 540 $148,971 9 11/20/98
10 Circle of Friends
Sav. $23,389,975 902 $125,587 4 3/17/95
11 In America
FoxS $15,539,656 403 $205,229 11 11/26/03
12 The Commitments
Fox $14,919,570 588 $271,333 8 8/16/91
13 My Left Foot
Mira. $14,743,391 510 $41,165 2 11/10/89
14 Angela's Ashes
Par. $13,042,112 614 $54,628 6 12/25/99
15 Michael Collins
WB $11,092,559 878 $182,221 6 10/11/96
16 The Brothers McMullen
FoxS $10,426,506 367 $167,815 7 8/11/95
17 Leprechaun
Trim. $8,556,940 620 $2,493,020 620 1/8/93
18 Widows' Peak
FL $6,243,722 193 $133,084 40 5/13/94
19 The Secret of Roan Inish
First $6,159,269 104 $82,601 7 2/3/95
20 The Boxer
Uni. $5,980,578 523 $86,097 3 12/31/97
21 Miller's Crossing
Fox $5,080,409 289 $28,202 1 9/21/90
22 The Playboys
Gold. $4,906,900 68 $32,525 2 4/24/92
23 The Magdalene Sisters
Mira. $4,890,878 295 $84,553 5 8/1/03
24 Into the West
Mira. $4,790,801 550 $1,410,414 550 9/17/93
25 The Dead
Vest $4,370,078 6 $69,074 6 12/18/87
26 Hear My Song
Mira. $4,313,473 214 $12,965 1 12/27/91
27 The Matchmaker
Gram. $3,392,080 705 $1,378,930 705 10/3/97
28 The Snapper
Mira. $3,323,524 1 $21,802 1 11/24/93
29 Dancing at Lughnasa
SPC $2,287,818 93 $83,759 4 11/13/98
30 Leprechaun 2
Trim. $2,260,622 252 $672,775 252 4/8/94
31 The Butcher Boy
WB $1,995,911 90 $135,606 9 4/3/98
32 State of Grace
Orion $1,911,542 335 $179,927 14 9/14/90
33 Veronica Guerin
BV $1,571,504 472 $611,276 472 10/17/03
34 The Field
Ave $1,494,399 40 $27,948 2 12/22/90
35 Evelyn
MGM $1,487,645 137 $65,344 15 12/13/02
36 The General
SPC $1,214,198 41 $26,771 2 12/18/98
37 This is My Father
Sony $1,083,975 51 $54,876 9 5/7/99
38 Hidden Agenda
Hemd $1,030,938 114 $49,827 3 11/21/90
39 A Man of No Importance
SPC $920,916 23 $36,606 5 12/22/94
40 The Miracle
Mira. $835,519 41 $12,076 1 7/3/91
41 Bloody Sunday
ParC $773,228 54 $29,419 2 10/4/02
42 The Van
FoxS $712,095 25 $23,366 3 5/16/97
43 Some Mother's Son
Sony $671,437 35 $88,515 14 12/27/96
44 The Opportunists
First $584,054 31 $46,967 5 8/11/00
45 Traveller
Oct. $534,010 6 $30,855 6 4/18/97
46 Monument Ave.
Lions $333,760 24 $41,556 10 9/25/98
47 About Adam
Mira. $159,668 11 $33,300 5 5/11/01
48 Agnes Browne
USA $148,853 21 $6,322 2 12/3/99
49 When Brendan Met Trudy
TSG $133,376 14 $42,055 14 3/9/01
50 Frankie Starlight
FL $103,365 5 $12,694 5 11/22/95
51 Borstal Boy
Strand $87,400 2 $11,164 2 3/1/02
52 An Everlasting Piece
DW $75,228 8 $9,128 8 12/22/00
53 Mad About Mambo
USA $65,283 51 $32,432 51 8/4/00
54 Nothing Personal
Trim. $40,374 1 $5,563 1 4/25/97
55 The Boondock Saints
Indic. $30,471 5 $19,930 5 1/21/00
56 War of the Buttons
WB $12,712 2 $4,930 2 9/29/95
57 The Last of the High Kings
Mira. $7,682 3 $5,569 3 4/10/98

D!ve^Bomb! · 14-02-2005 9:01pm

so?

whiskeyman · 14-02-2005 9:07pm

This will all change soon..... Lassie is filming here!

mycroft · 14-02-2005 9:52pm

Romo wrote:

You may have come across all the hype about the Irish film industry, how it's a world beater and how its offering people around the world a window into Irish society. Actually, the majority of films never get a commercial release and just vanish and of those that do most go straight to video.

I'm not sure what you want. The majority of films don't do well, and never see the light of day. You're essentially asking why don't Irish films do as well as hollywood blocbusters. What was the last great Danish or French film you saw? Indigenious industries struggle to commit with the US because we don't have enough money, we can't afford the music, the stars and the publicity budget.

Most films set in Ireland invariably have foreign leads, almost always miscast, Kevin Spacey, Julia Roberts, Matt Keeslar anyone? This is especially so with regards to female leads, often cast on the pretext of commercial attractiveness, again completely bogus, you get the American Kerri Russell cast in Mad about Mambo on this pretext, and it makes £65,000 dollars at the US box office. Or the inability of Irish directors, for what ever reason, to cast or find Irish female leads. Sheridan, Pearson, Jordan, Crowley, take a bow.

For starts to recieve funding and foreign distribution and the weight of a major PR campaign you need US money and for them to be satisfied you need a star. Its their insurance. Take the recent Conor McPhearson project "the actors" Miramax invested $7million in it. On the provision Micheal Caine was involved.

And then you've got the real disasters, that are just hushed up. One film called "Chaos", directed by Geraldine Creed, who made the unforgettable "The Sun, The Moon and The Stars", is reported to have had a budget of $50,000,000, which is about the budget for the Arts Council for an entire year, and its never seen the light of day.

It did not have a budget of fifty million. No. But you're right I can think of over twenty Irish films of the last ten years which haven't gone beyond the festival circuit.

Anyway, forget about the hype, here's a breakdown on how Irish films have done at the US box office. You can forget about most of the films between 1 and 20 as they are just US studio films like "Gangs of New York" that just have an Irish theme. The general rule of thumb is that a film has to make two and a half times its budget to even break even. So a very modest film with a budget of E 6,000,000 will have to make $15-16,000,000 to break even or a film like "Michael Collins" that had a budget of around $27,000,000 would have had to make $60,000,000.

And here's where we get down to brass tacks. Can we or should we try to make films to compete with the US market.

We tried to a few years ago, Remember About Adam? And When brendan met Trudi. Two irish films which aped US/working title romantic comedy
forumla, and where hailed by the less informed members of the Irish press as new irish golden age in cinema. I'm sorry but two sub standard four weddings does not a golden age make.

Romo your stats are irrelevent, for ****sake leprechaun is on the list a film whose makers closest relationship with ireland is that the once had a guinness with black in an irish pub in LA. In the name of the Father is the closest thing you get to an irish film in the list.

What do you want? Irish films that regularly compete with the US blocbusters in terms of financial success? The british film industry only occasionally pulls that off, and outside of the US they're the only english speaking industry which counts.

Our current minister wants big hollywood productions to come here. Which is good, I've worked on the odd one, and they provide solid jobs for irish industry members, however the creative and major positions of responsibilty are nearly always drawn from the US or the UK. And any Irish crew (art dept, editing, camera, etc) who have had major career success are more than familiar with Aer lingus check in. Like in every country in the world, the successful film industry crewman travels where the job takes him. And in this respect we hold our own (Some Irish crew members are so well renowned they've found work as far afield as Africa, Prague, and the caribenian) to name a few. However it does mean you have to go away to be recognised and our minister has just basically ensured a team of assistants will work this summer and not done anything to ensure a chance for a generation cameraman art directors editors etc to flex their creative muscles at home. And this I think is a core criticism of the Irish industry as our minister sees it.

Truth be told we've had a really bad year last year, Arthur bombed and industry expectations ensured they were gouged (think baggy director trousers tax from the radioactive man ep of the simpsons) made the US leery of shooting here for a year (also the dithering over section 481 made most productions look elsewhere even a half way big production takes months of planning and no one was taking dice with potentially having a 1/3 of it's budget sliced off, keeping the US away, and a new head of the film board meant that their was obviously going to be a period of adjustment.

Look I'm not defending the state of the Industry, but whats the fu*king point of your list, when it meantions films only incredibly loosely based on Ireland they may not have been filmed here or made by Irishpeople ??????

Do you want a financially successful industry? Lets take a look at Man about Dog, did excellent at the irish box office, recouped it's small budget, and panned by critics, but obviously like by the audience it was intented for, the irish cinema going public.

Or do you want an industry that can do that and at the same time make intelligent well made thought provoking films.

Which is? Or is it a mixture of the three. Bitching about US stars in irish film won't change anything, nor will complaining about lemmings, any investment house puts film in the absurdly high risk catergory because dodgy films are made every day. Also comparing Last of the high kings to Road to Perdition is beyond idiotic

Romo · 15-02-2005 5:27pm

“Also comparing Last of the high kings to Road to Perdition is beyond idiotic.”

I wasn’t comparing them, and I was going to leave out the studio films but I couldn't be bothered, so I said, “You can forget about most of the films between 1 and 20 as they are just US studio films like "Gangs of New York" that just have an Irish theme.”

The idea that a film must have a “named” American or British actor is one of the greatest conceits in film making and is completely, totally and utterly false. It’s an unsuccessful business model that keeps being repeated. Kevin Spacey, Michael Caine, Mike Myers, Robin Wright, Matt Kesslar, Olivia Williams, Kerri Russell, Helen Baxendale, Linda Fiorentino, Julia Roberts and Emily Watson to name but a few, have not added anything in commercial terms, and with one or two exceptions, very little in artistic terms, to the Irish Films they have appeared in. If the film is good like Sideways or Shaun of the Dead, people will go to see it, regardless of who's in it.

What’s with the aversion to Irish Actresses?

A large number of films have been made in Ireland over the past twelve years and even if most of them were in the 3-10 million range the cumulative total must be enormous, with little or no return. And when the actors are foreign there isn't even a legacy benefit. Does anyone know how much has been spent?

I’d like to see a reorientation toward making quality television drama and looking toward ourselves as opposed to casting foreign actors who usually flounder around. Television can be a powerhouse for nurturing talent.

Hugh Jackman, Naomi Watts, Martin Henderson, Eric Banna, Heath ledger, Rose Byrne, Cate Blanchett, Peta Wilson, Russell Crowe, Simon Baker, Alex Dimitriades, Guy Pearse, Geoffrey Rush, Rachel Griffiths, Toni Collete, Emily Browning and god know's how many others have all emerged from Australian television over the past 10 years.

You want to know what the stars of the next ten years are doing at the moment. Watch Australian television. We should be attempting to build and ensemble of talent based on quality television production. Instead of hiring in Michael Caine.

I'm not an industry insider, more interested in international trade matters; it just seems to me that there is a gulf between the perception and the reality of this industry, in a way like no other commercial activity in Ireland.

por · 15-02-2005 6:01pm

What I have a problem with is that as soon as the Irish media get a whiff of an Irish film being released on the US market they are telling us that the filem IS or WILL 'take the US by storm'.

By storm my ass, all it will get is a weekend showing at an independent cinema that will be full of Irish immigrants anyway.

No offence to the Irish film industry but it is a small independent sector and will never take the US by storm, no matter what the media try to say.

BlitzKrieg · 15-02-2005 6:49pm

*sigh* hate to sound all arty farty and such but there is more to films then making box office records and such...like it dont know maybe making a good film.

You scream about the disaster that is irish cinema, i hate to break it to you but the british cinema, german cinema, f*cken south yeman cinema is pretty much in the same boat.

National cinema is different to holllywood in many ways its more of a expression of a nations values and its creativity then a buisness (which hollywood is) and there is no intention of being a commercial success in fact independent film makers walk a very tight rope trying to get funding for their films and for them even to see the light of day is a miricle.

(actully i'm in the middle of this whole national cinema debate right now so i'm not 100% but in fairness thinking something is a disaster because commercially its a failure is simply stupid. I can see at least 10 films on your lists which i consider DAMN GOOD FILMS! and i dont care if they are not megahits commercially...they are good films which in my eyes is the same as a good piece of art)

Romo · 15-02-2005 7:44pm

Make some quality television drama and actually consider Irish actresses for major parts. It would make a change from moaning about the "Brits" on your DVD commentary, right Sheridan.

johntf008 · 15-02-2005 9:06pm

I saw Chaos. I think you mistakenly placed a comma after the $50, instead of a decimal point...

mycroft · 15-02-2005 11:34pm

Romo wrote:

The idea that a film must have a “named” American or British actor is one of the greatest conceits in film making and is completely, totally and utterly false. It’s an unsuccessful business model that keeps being repeated. Kevin Spacey, Michael Caine, Mike Myers, Robin Wright, Matt Kesslar, Olivia Williams, Kerri Russell, Helen Baxendale, Linda Fiorentino, Julia Roberts and Emily Watson to name but a few, have not added anything in commercial terms, and with one or two exceptions, very little in artistic terms, to the Irish Films they have appeared in. If the film is good like Sideways or Shaun of the Dead, people will go to see it, regardless of who's in it.

And as I said it a long held maxim in the film industry that a "star" attraction adds something, Tom Cruise doesn't get paid $20million a film because of his personality, he gets paid it because a studio feels he's be a box office draw. As I said, Miramax only invested $7mill into the Actors on the provisio that Caine was attached to the project.

What’s with the aversion to Irish Actresses?

None, and theres a slew of irish actresses working away in the UK and Ireland at the moment.

A large number of films have been made in Ireland over the past twelve years and even if most of them were in the 3-10 million range the cumulative total must be enormous, with little or no return. And when the actors are foreign there isn't even a legacy benefit. Does anyone know how much has been spent?

Spent by whom? The total film board budget is under 10 million a year, the majority of money spent in irish film is by investors and studios.

I’d like to see a reorientation toward making quality television drama and looking toward ourselves as opposed to casting foreign actors who usually flounder around. Television can be a powerhouse for nurturing talent.

Can, be. Alot depends on the writing talent and investment. Plus you're now getting into the murky world of RTE financing and out of the film board/arts council funding.

Hugh Jackman, Naomi Watts, Martin Henderson, Eric Banna, Heath ledger, Rose Byrne, Cate Blanchett, Peta Wilson, Russell Crowe, Simon Baker, Alex Dimitriades, Guy Pearse, Geoffrey Rush, Rachel Griffiths, Toni Collete, Emily Browning and god know's how many others have all emerged from Australian television over the past 10 years.

You've included a number of actors on the list who's TV background is minimal.

I'm not an industry insider, more interested in international trade matters; it just seems to me that there is a gulf between the perception and the reality of this industry, in a way like no other commercial activity in Ireland.

Thats the thing, too many people approach this from an financial stand point and say this should work because of x economic reason, when you strip it away you'll need good writers visually creative directors, and a decent script.

I'm not defending the irish industry completely, and once again you'll have to go and see the quality of wrting in irish tv drama/comedy (fergus' wedding,proof, etc...) to see that the answer is not chucking good money after bad at the televison industry instead of the film industry

The disaster that is the Irish Film industry.

Comments