Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

westtip · 13-01-2015 3:31pm

corktina wrote: »

there is no freight potential, it's a Red Herring.

Corky we know. WOT know they will get nothing from this government so they are want this freight story spinned out in particular to Galway and Mayo councillors who have been confronted with the greenway arguments and WOT want them to say - ah well now I think we have to look at all the options and who knows freight may be the possible solution. ....WOT now want to stop the greenway at all costs before the next election so they can spin out the same old tired arguments to a new administration and keep the greenway at bay at any cost. It's a complete non starter.

mayo.mick · 13-01-2015 3:54pm

Meanwhile down in Waterford they are getting on with the job. Getting their tourist trail ready in time for the summer. How many new jobs will this create along with all the spin off for the local economy in all the towns and villages along the route.

https://www.facebook.com/deise.greenway/photos/a.1595916330638010.1073741873.1415975848632060/1595916367304673/?type=1&theater

corktina · 13-01-2015 4:06pm

westtip wrote: »

Corky we know. WOT know they will get nothing from this government so they are want this freight story spinned out in particular to Galway and Mayo councillors who have been confronted with the greenway arguments and WOT want them to say - ah well now I think we have to look at all the options and who knows freight may be the possible solution. ....WOT now want to stop the greenway at all costs before the next election so they can spin out the same old tired arguments to a new administration and keep the greenway at bay at any cost. It's a complete non starter.

no harm in keeping that message out there though is there.

Carawaystick · 13-01-2015 4:13pm

bizguy wrote: »

If you stole €50 off someone walking in the street, it'd be theft and you'd be in the barracks.
If you took someone's car and never gave it back, it'd be theft and you'd be in the barracks.

How can people STEAL land that's not theirs and be allowed get away with it?

The land is not stollen, sher it's exactly where the previous owner left it

It's more like if you stopped someone using their car for a dozen years, and they never tried to use it themselves, well maybe they didn't want the car then

westtip · 13-01-2015 4:35pm

mayo.mick wrote: »

Meanwhile down in Waterford they are getting on with the job. Getting their tourist trail ready in time for the summer. How many new jobs will this create along with all the spin off for the local economy in all the towns and villages along the route.

https://www.facebook.com/deise.greenway/photos/a.1595916330638010.1073741873.1415975848632060/1595916367304673/?type=1&theater

Mick we just have to keep getting the message out and keep hammering it home and getting local businesses to apply pressure on politicians. People in towns like Swinford, Charlestown etc are fed up listening to WOT about the railway that is not going to happen, they want 200 tired hungry tourists each day coming through their towns. Swinfored made it clear what they wanted - the time has come for the silent majority to wake up and tell WOT we actually do want a greenway.

elastico · 13-01-2015 4:44pm

westtip wrote: »

, they want 200 tired hungry tourists each day coming through their towns.

200 x 365 =73000 - impressive!

BoatMad · 13-01-2015 4:47pm

westtip wrote: »

Exactly and it has failed. 50,000 passengers in year four with fares slashed to attract them and it is only at 50% of its year one business case forecast - it has failed miserably don't you get that or do you believe 14 passengers per train after four years is a success?

I have my differences with WOT, primarily in that the WRC as it now exists will scavenge other parts of the railway.

But you'll not find me arguing that re-opening rail lines or promoting rail isn't a good idea. The fact is maybe WOT exaggerated their claims or they were best guesses, it wouldn't be the first time this has happened, and even greenway supporters suffer from it too . ! ( 200 tourists a day in swinford, all of them hungry, etc)

The fact is ALL railways outside commuter lines in Dublin have " failed". In my view at least 50,000 passengers is 50,000 more then when the lines wasn't open at all.

You could have fooled me!

Im a suporter in general of greenways ( i don't see them as cycle ways or commuters projects). They are trails through interesting countryside that are primarily for tourists ( both home grown and abroad ). I certainly don't see their primarily attraction as getting kids to school. !!.

But I am not a supporter, of projects that in order to exist must denigrate other forms of transport particularly railways.

But , if the alignment supports both , Im all in favour.

What I fail to understand is this viciousness towards WOT and the WRC. The railway was there first , end of story.

Not quite as plain stupid to suggest a railway will be used by commuters in the west of Ireland to any great extent. However if 50 children a day going to St Attractas started cycling to school using the greenway I would see them as commuters. Locals need a place to walk -- that is the beauty of these things they bring local amenity value and the tourist create jobs by spending money so there are people living in the country to use the local greenway.

Again Im am not arguing against greenways as a concept. I am merely pointing out that it should degenerate into denigrating other attempts to secure alternative uses, particularly restoration of rail lines. If a greenway can be secured in " addition" to a railway , all well and good. Bot it shouldn't degenerate into a one or the other.

I get lost in a lot or your posts. I am sure others do. I am not actually sure what you want to see.

Its always the same with zealots, you only see your side of the argument.

BoatMad · 13-01-2015 4:49pm

corktina wrote: »

there is no freight potential, it's a Red Herring.

Indeed , but not for any reasons stated here, The fact is its a red herring because IR have effectively withdrawn from the freight business and in a few years will neither have suitable locomotives or rolling stock to effect any sort of freight business at all, even if handed to them.

corktina · 13-01-2015 5:22pm

BoatMad wrote: »

Indeed , but not for any reasons stated here, The fact is its a red herring because IR have effectively withdrawn from the freight business and in a few years will neither have suitable locomotives or rolling stock to effect any sort of freight business at all, even if handed to them.

no it's because freight needs to come from somewhere and go somewhere else and there just isn't any in the offing....what they want to do is poach the existing traffic, which is detrimental to existing lines, just as it was for the Waterford Rosslare line, a victim of WoT.

BoatMad · 13-01-2015 5:25pm

corktina wrote: »

no it's because freight needs to come from somewhere and go somewhere else and there just isn't any in the offing....what they want to do is poach the existing traffic, which is detrimental to existing lines, just as it was for the Waterford Rosslare line, a victim of WoT.

doesn't matter if the freight flows are there or not. IR simply have no freight stock left in serviceable conditions and have a in effect a handful of inappropriate 40 year old locomotives,

The fact is that IR is simply out of the freight business.

SO even if the freight flows magically appeared, IR cannot operate a freight railroad.

westtip · 13-01-2015 5:27pm

elastico wrote: »

200 x 365 =73000 - impressive!

The figures might be modest - the Great western Greenway attracts over 300 users per day

An estimated 300 people cycle and walk the trail each day, which was constructed at a cost of €3 million

That comes from Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Western_Greenway

I think the figure is higher in the summer months. I don't know about you but I don't think the likes of Charlestown and Swinford get 200 people per day coming cycling and walking through the town at the moment do you, I guess some of the 300 people using the Mayo greenway spend money in places like Newport and Mulranny...I think the latest figures are about €8 million comes into the economy from the Greenway. A lot of the products and services sold attract VAT, which means the greenway has more or less paid for itself and is not a burden on the public purse. Oh and by the way the people employed as a result are off the dole and paying Tax.... Perhaps you could enlighten us with the economic contribution to the west of ireland by the ennis/athenry railway line...

elastico · 13-01-2015 5:39pm

corktina wrote: »

no it's because freight needs to come from somewhere and go somewhere else and there just isn't any in the offing....what they want to do is poach the existing traffic, which is detrimental to existing lines, just as it was for the Waterford Rosslare line, a victim of WoT.

Funnily enough freight on the Claremorris - Athenry section only stopped in the mid 1990's and then only a decade or so later the new timber and container services started from Westport and Ballina to Waterford.

Had Irish rail maintained the line in any sort of decent condition during this lean period then we could still be seeing these freight flows going via Tuam today.

It does not cost near as much to keep a freight line open as the Tara mines shows.

corktina · 13-01-2015 5:43pm

westtip wrote: »

The figures might be modest - the Great western Greenway attracts over 300 users per day

That comes from Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Western_Greenway

I think the figure is higher in the summer months. I don't know about you but I don't think the likes of Charlestown and Swinford get 200 people per day coming cycling and walking through the town at the moment do you, I guess some of the 300 people using the Mayo greenway spend money in places like Newport and Mulranny...I think the latest figures are about €8 million comes into the economy from the Greenway. A lot of the products and services sold attract VAT, which means the greenway has more or less paid for itself and is not a burden on the public purse. Oh and by the way the people employed as a result are off the dole and paying Tax.... Perhaps you could enlighten us with the economic contribution to the west of ireland by the ennis/athenry railway line...

and that's 200 users at every point of the greenway more or less, since they conceivable could use the facilities everywhere they pass

BoatMad · 13-01-2015 5:45pm

new timber and container services started from Westport and Ballina to Waterford.

somewhat of a mythical beast, firstly timber handling in waterford is appalling inefficient , The liner trains are effectively being scavenged by Dublin and the ballina experiment is basically down to one man doing a great job.

But it still adds up to a few trains a week ( not a day)

The overall timber deal with Coilte was canned by IR as it couldn't actually make money ( as its accounted for in IR). Rail freight in Ireland should be a marginal cost, but instead it was done on apportioned cost. Given that IR looses money overall, on apportioned cost, all rail freight lost money and hence the most monetary efficient rail freight operation for IR is zero rail freight .

elastico · 13-01-2015 6:40pm

corktina wrote: »

and that's 200 users at every point of the greenway more or less, since they conceivable could use the facilities everywhere they pass

I'd be surprised if there was 300 or even 200 high spending tourists on the Achill greenway today, but maybe I am wrong. I'd say apart from locals out walking etc. there wouln't be 10 money spending tourists a day using it in the winter.

Markcheese · 13-01-2015 7:09pm

BoatMad wrote: »

doesn't matter if the freight flows are there or not. IR simply have no freight stock left in serviceable conditions and have a in effect a handful of inappropriate 40 year old locomotives,

The fact is that IR is simply out of the freight business.

SO even if the freight flows magically appeared, IR cannot operate a freight railroad.

And nobody else wants to do one either - even in the states and Australia most freight is bulk - point to point - there's very little of that in Ireland anyway.and since Ireland is a small island any bulk exports are gonna be by sea anyway -

westtip · 13-01-2015 8:03pm

elastico wrote: »

I'd be surprised if there was 300 or even 200 high spending tourists on the Achill greenway today, but maybe I am wrong. I'd say apart from locals out walking etc. there wouln't be 10 money spending tourists a day using it in the winter.

You are entitled to your opinion, no one is suggesting that on a filthy day in january there is rich pickings for any businesses, but please don't tell us businesses that have been set up in that part of Mayo employing people and working hard because the tourism infrastructure aren't glad about this vital investment in tourism infrastructure that has changed many peoples lives. Anyway could you please tell me how much the Ennis/Athenry train service has bought to the economy of the west of Ireland - at the moment I am struggling on that one.

end of the road · 13-01-2015 8:18pm

corktina wrote: »

the Waterford Rosslare line, a victim of WoT.

i'd blame IE over WOT TBH all though i'd agree WOT had a part to play via them campaining for and getting something that was predicted to be detrimental to the rest of the network. however it was IE who made the decisian to close the line and the NTA sided with them unsurprisingly so both those 2 should get the most blame i think.

end of the road · 13-01-2015 8:22pm

Markcheese wrote: »

And nobody else wants to do one either - even in the states and Australia most freight is bulk - point to point - there's very little of that in Ireland anyway.and since Ireland is a small island any bulk exports are gonna be by sea anyway -

thats no excuse i'm afraid.

foggy_lad · 13-01-2015 8:52pm

BoatMad wrote: »

doesn't matter if the freight flows are there or not. IR simply have no freight stock left in serviceable conditions and have a in effect a handful of inappropriate 40 year old locomotives,

The fact is that IR is simply out of the freight business.

SO even if the freight flows magically appeared, IR cannot operate a freight railroad.

Seriously? you would see a rail line kept opened or reopened at huge cost just in case there was a return to a pretty much obsolete form of freight transport in Ireland?

That is much the same as others saying they didn't care that there were no passengers living in the catchment area of the WRC just as long as it was reopened at great cost regardless.

Grandeeod · 13-01-2015 8:54pm

There's a lot of dudes who agree with each other on this thread and then seem to disagree with each other. How the hell did that happen?

Grandeeod · 13-01-2015 9:19pm

BoatMad wrote: »

I have my differences with WOT, primarily in that the WRC as it now exists will scavenge other parts of the railway.

But you'll not find me arguing that re-opening rail lines or promoting rail isn't a good idea. The fact is maybe WOT exaggerated their claims or they were best guesses, it wouldn't be the first time this has happened, and even greenway supporters suffer from it too . ! ( 200 tourists a day in swinford, all of them hungry, etc)

The fact is ALL railways outside commuter lines in Dublin have " failed". In my view at least 50,000 passengers is 50,000 more then when the lines wasn't open at all.

Im a suporter in general of greenways ( i don't see them as cycle ways or commuters projects). They are trails through interesting countryside that are primarily for tourists ( both home grown and abroad ). I certainly don't see their primarily attraction as getting kids to school. !!.

But I am not a supporter, of projects that in order to exist must denigrate other forms of transport particularly railways.

But , if the alignment supports both , Im all in favour.

What I fail to understand is this viciousness towards WOT and the WRC. The railway was there first , end of story.

Again Im am not arguing against greenways as a concept. I am merely pointing out that it should degenerate into denigrating other attempts to secure alternative uses, particularly restoration of rail lines. If a greenway can be secured in " addition" to a railway , all well and good. Bot it shouldn't degenerate into a one or the other.

Its always the same with zealots, you only see your side of the argument.

I can see where you are coming from. Personally I was very anti WOT when it was based on a purely railway issue. While I have no particular interest in a greenway either way, I can clearly see how each side has arrived at the current impasse. WOT have failed to engange in the process and the greenway side have presented themselves in a threatening manner towards WOT and the WRC. Hence the stand off. Its a ****ing mess of unprecedented proportions.

While I do not believe the WRC north of Athenry is a runner, I do appreciate that there is an absolute disconnect between the Greenway promoters and WOT. I have first hand knowledge of how WOT operate. What I would like to see is a full on meeting of WOT and the Greenway promoters to thrash it out face to face. Only then will we see the truth. Get a public debate going alkong the route.

westtip · 13-01-2015 9:22pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

There's a lot of dudes who agree with each other on this thread and then seem to disagree with each other. How the hell did that happen?

GD its like the good old days on this thread! or its predecessor, in the early days of this five setter though WOT had all the ammo with a government supporting them on their crazy plan and only those like DWCommuter, myself and a few others opposing their crazy ideas, now the boot is on the other foot. Its hilarious don't ya think:p and not a mention of chicken dinners, cheese sandwiches and flasks......

BTW we tried a public debate with WOT and mentioned it to Mid west, they won't even come on the same programme as anyone representing the greenway group, so I am afraid it won't happen. When I challenged them in a public room at a WOT conference as mentioned in a post some time ago I was told to stay away from "their" railway with my greenway ideas, that was at the last great West on Track Conference in Claremorris in May 2009, it was the glory days and phase one was coming on stream, when unknown to WOT Eamon O'Cuiv spoiled the party by suggesting in a speech that had not been vetted by WOT, that a greenway should be put on Claremorris/Collooney until such time as a railway was possible (he used a paragraph from a letter I had sent him in his speech), WOT were not happy when I complimented "his" idea from the floor of the conference, and as mentioned a WOT heavy told me at lunchtime to leave the conference and to keep my mouth shut about the greenway idea. Debate? You ask DWCommuter about the way WOT debate things, they won't allow any debate on their facebook page, they ban any poster who questions their reasoning, you think their way or you think no way, little wonder a certain political party supports them - similiar modus operandi.

Grandeeod · 13-01-2015 9:43pm

westtip wrote: »

GD its like the good old days on this thread! or its predecessor, in the early days of this five setter though WOT had all the ammo with a government supporting them on their crazy plan and only those like DWCommuter, myself and a few others opposing their crazy ideas, now the boot is on the other foot. Its hilarious don't ya think:p and not a mention of chicken dinners, cheese sandwiches and flasks......

BTW we tried a public debate with WOT and mentioned it to Mid west, they won't even come on the same programme as anyone representing the greenway group, so I am afraid it won't happen. When I challenged them in a public room at a WOT conference as mentioned in a post some time ago I was told to stay away from "their" railway with my greenway ideas, that was at the last great West on Track Conference in Claremorris in May 2009, it was the glory days and phase one was coming on stream, when unknown to WOT Eamon O'Cuiv spoiled the party by suggesting in a speech that had not been vetted by WOT, that a greenway should be put on Claremorris/Collooney until such time as a railway was possible (he used a paragraph from a letter I had sent him in his speech), WOT were not happy when I complimented "his" idea from the floor of the conference, and as mentioned a WOT heavy told me at lunchtime to leave the conference and to keep my mouth shut about the greenway idea. Debate? You ask DWCommuter about the way WOT debate things, they won't allow any debate on their facebook page, they ban any poster who questions their reasoning, you think their way or you think no way, little wonder a certain political party supports them - similiar modus operandi.

MAGIC! I'll tell DWCommuter in a bit over a nice wine in a balmy 19 degrees! Glad you took the bait and spelt it out like it is. Sorry for having to draw this out, but it always helps matters.:D

eastwest · 15-01-2015 11:57am

elastico wrote: »

You seem to be grasping at straws comparing it to New York, where millions of people actually live!:rolleyes:

If a few kids want to cycle to school on a sunny day there is already a piece of tax payer funded infrastructure available to them, its called a road.

And as for no government going to rebuild the Western Rail Corridor, they have already rebuilt Limerick - Athenry and Enda has just announced more of it is to be reopened for freight.;)

I must have missed that -- Enda announcing that more of this folly will be reopened for freight. ;-)
Of course, he did nothing of the sort. Faced with questions in Castlebar about his earlier clear statement that the rail option was gone, he did the usual Enda thing and waffled, in an attempt not to upset anyone.
Politicians like to speak out of all sides of their mouths, so that they appeal to the broadest possible church. That's all his blather moment was, an attempt to fudge his and the DOT policy position when faced with local FG councillors who have built careers on the railway promise.
Wrt letting your kids cycle to school on a main road; I wouldn't!

eastwest · 15-01-2015 12:08pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

I can see where you are coming from. Personally I was very anti WOT when it was based on a purely railway issue. While I have no particular interest in a greenway either way, I can clearly see how each side has arrived at the current impasse. WOT have failed to engange in the process and the greenway side have presented themselves in a threatening manner towards WOT and the WRC. Hence the stand off. Its a ****ing mess of unprecedented proportions.

While I do not believe the WRC north of Athenry is a runner, I do appreciate that there is an absolute disconnect between the Greenway promoters and WOT. I have first hand knowledge of how WOT operate. What I would like to see is a full on meeting of WOT and the Greenway promoters to thrash it out face to face. Only then will we see the truth. Get a public debate going alkong the route.

You'll never get that; from what I see of WOT, they won't debate this issue with the pro-tourism lobby. It seems to be a policy decision on their part -- I recall one of their county councillors saying on 'ear to the ground' last year that the issue was 'not up for discussion'. That's pretty definitive, I would say.
The thing I fail to understand though is why WOT never highlight or condemn the appropriation of parts of the asset by squatters. Any highlighting of this serious issue I've seen has been by the Western Rail Trail advocates.
Is it possible that this is just another side of the same coin that sees councillors promising a railway that they know isn't coming in their lifetimes? Maybe as well as trying to keep the WOT lobby happy they also don't want to upset the squatters?

eastwest · 15-01-2015 12:27pm

westtip wrote: »

You are entitled to your opinion, no one is suggesting that on a filthy day in january there is rich pickings for any businesses, but please don't tell us businesses that have been set up in that part of Mayo employing people and working hard because the tourism infrastructure aren't glad about this vital investment in tourism infrastructure that has changed many peoples lives. Anyway could you please tell me how much the Ennis/Athenry train service has bought to the economy of the west of Ireland - at the moment I am struggling on that one.

The proposed Western Rail Trail is a different animal from the existing Westport greenway. Failte ireland did a lot of research in Europe last year and found out what many pro-tourism campaigners had always suspected, that there is enormous pent-up demand in Europe for a long-distance cycling product in ireland -- their research shows that 11.5 million Germans would consider holidaying here if we had enough distance in a network. That is being addressed by the DOT with the Dublin-Clifden trail currently under construction, and the real value of the Western Rail Trail is it's ability to connect that long route with the north-west and indeed with the short-stay product in Westport.
Ireland has the product beloved of these kinds of tourists, pubs, music, hospitality etc. What we don't have is a network of trails such as exist in most other countries. Disused railways are perfect for this, connecting towns where services are available and including railway heritage as points of interest. Anyone who has cycled in Germany or the USA will understand; they effectively use lots of similar infrastructure to bring jobs and tourism earnings to communities.
The New Zealand rail trail is a perfect example; it has rejuvenated small dying towns like Ophir and made them great places to live, as well as providing sustainable employment and business opportunities.
Ironically, some of the pro-WOT councillors whose real reason for opposing the WRT has as much to do with keeping cycling tourism in Westport as it has with being pro-rail will change their stance quickly when the Dublin-Clifden project starts to reduce numbers on the Westport trail. It'll all be 'up for discussion' then!

eastwest · 15-01-2015 1:12pm

elastico wrote: »

Funnily enough freight on the Claremorris - Athenry section only stopped in the mid 1990's and then only a decade or so later the new timber and container services started from Westport and Ballina to Waterford.

Had Irish rail maintained the line in any sort of decent condition during this lean period then we could still be seeing these freight flows going via Tuam today.

It does not cost near as much to keep a freight line open as the Tara mines shows.

Regarding the historic freight loads of forestry products out of Mayo/Galway, sawlog exports from the north west have now all but stopped as I understand it; there is now adequate capacity in local mills for all the output in Connaught. Last year there were news reports of the mill in Corundulla having to import a shipload of timber from Scotland to keep production going, because of a shortage of local harvest.
Things change!

BoatMad · 15-01-2015 3:58pm

eastwest wrote: »

You'll never get that; from what I see of WOT, they won't debate this issue with the pro-tourism lobby. It seems to be a policy decision on their part -- I recall one of their county councillors saying on 'ear to the ground' last year that the issue was 'not up for discussion'. That's pretty definitive, I would say.
The thing I fail to understand though is why WOT never highlight or condemn the appropriation of parts of the asset by squatters. Any highlighting of this serious issue I've seen has been by the Western Rail Trail advocates.
Is it possible that this is just another side of the same coin that sees councillors promising a railway that they know isn't coming in their lifetimes? Maybe as well as trying to keep the WOT lobby happy they also don't want to upset the squatters?

I fail to see how demonising wot and projecting all sorts of conspiracy theories helps the WRT . A rail advocacy body is entitled to do what it does, no more then a WRT advocacy does.

eastwest · 15-01-2015 6:02pm

BoatMad wrote: »

I fail to see how demonising wot and projecting all sorts of conspiracy theories helps the WRT . A rail advocacy body is entitled to do what it does, no more then a WRT advocacy does.

I'm not demonising them, or I don't intend to. I understand that they refuse to debate the issue though, and I don't know how anyone can overcome that.
I reckon the pro-tourism lobby need to just get on with it and ignore WOT. After all, they are to some extent irrelevant now that a succession of ministers have told them that their proposals for the asset will not be adopted. The same ministers have told the WRT lobby that their proposals are acceptable, so it seems that WOT are out of the picture apart from maybe a bit of (diminishing) nuisance value.
My take on the squatting problem might sound like a conspiracy theory, but how can anyone explain the complete lack of response by WOT councillors to the issue? To me, it seems clear enough that they don't want to upset those particular players.

BoatMad · 15-01-2015 7:13pm

My take on the squatting problem might sound like a conspiracy theory, but how can anyone explain the complete lack of response by WOT councillors to the issue? To me, it seems clear enough that they don't want to upset those particular players.

I was recently told that you can't claim adverse possession on land granted under a Railway order. SO it maybe no one cares about squatters as they can be ejected. I mean the same thing was done on the harcourt line, and the luas was relaid with no issues ??

eastwest · 15-01-2015 8:35pm

BoatMad wrote: »

I was recently told that you can't claim adverse possession on land granted under a Railway order. SO it maybe no one cares about squatters as they can be ejected. I mean the same thing was done on the harcourt line, and the luas was relaid with no issues ??

In Limerick they weren't able to move the farmer (mr Dowling) who had demolished the boundary wall of the railway property to build his cattle shed, and who continues to make life difficult for cyclists on the great southern trail.

end of the road · 15-01-2015 8:44pm

eastwest wrote: »

In Limerick they weren't able to move the farmer (mr Dowling) who had demolished the boundary wall of the railway property to build his cattle shed, and who continues to make life difficult for cyclists on the great southern trail.

middle of the night, few lads to take out the cows, digger, demolish, away you go

BoatMad · 15-01-2015 8:49pm

eastwest wrote: »

In Limerick they weren't able to move the farmer (mr Dowling) who had demolished the boundary wall of the railway property to build his cattle shed, and who continues to make life difficult for cyclists on the great southern trail.

yes but thats not a railway !

eastwest · 15-01-2015 9:20pm

BoatMad wrote: »

yes but thats not a railway !

True. It's a railway alignment, with the right of way apparently preserved by the phone cable.
The bottom line was that CIE either didn't feel confident enough up take him on, or were just not bothered since they have no interest in building a railway on it.

eastwest · 15-01-2015 9:21pm

end of the road wrote: »

middle of the night, few lads to take out the cows, digger, demolish, away you go

You'd be tempted, all right.

westtip · 16-01-2015 11:11pm

Has anyone seen the business plan for freight which WOT are now claiming is the new great white hope to keep the rail corridor debate going....
I understand there are about 1000 freight trains per annum to and from Ballina each year serving Dublin & Waterford. This is about 2.73 freight trains per day which are perfectly adequately served on the existing rail infrastructure. To justify a new “freight only” railway from Claremorris to Athenry I would imagine the number of freight trains would have to be increased significantly to justify such a capital investment. I would be surprised if the uplift in freight from the Ballina depot could justify such investment. One of the main users of the freight service from Ballina is Coca-Cola beverages shipping soft drinks concentrate to Coca-Cola bottlers in the UK and Europe, all of this is shipped from East Coast ports Dublin and Waterford. One of the arguments is that this freight could be shipped to the Shannon port of Foynes via the new “freight only Western Rail corridor” through Claremorris Tuam and Athenry. I doubt very much that Coca-Cola wishes to add to shipping times to Europe and the UK by routing their concentrate shipments via Foynes. I also doubt whether Coca-Cola beverages has expressed any dissatisfaction with freight services from Ballina on the current railway network. 2.73 trains a day does not mean a new railway is needed.

I am pretty sure West on Track keep an eye on this forum - perhaps they could come out with some facts figures and proof on this new trick up their sleeve which they went crying to An Taoiseach about. Any news folks? And by the way do remember this is the organisation that had a forecast "demand" for the railway back in 2006 for 750,000 passenger journies per annum....Year 4 and with price discounting we have just hit half of the first year forecast in the business case on which the Athenry Ennis line was built, 50,000 (Year one forecast in business case 100,000 rising to 250,000 in year 3).

Someone at WOT needs to dig out their envelope and biro and sit down in the kitchen to send a Freight forecast to the Minister of Transport, he can then file it in fantasy projects folder.

elastico · 17-01-2015 11:30am

westtip wrote: »

Has anyone seen the business plan for freight which WOT are now claiming is the new great white hope to keep the rail corridor debate going....
I understand there are about 1000 freight trains per annum to and from Ballina each year serving Dublin & Waterford. This is about 2.73 freight trains per day which are perfectly adequately served on the existing rail infrastructure. To justify a new “freight only” railway from Claremorris to Athenry I would imagine the number of freight trains would have to be increased significantly to justify such a capital investment. I would be surprised if the uplift in freight from the Ballina depot could justify such investment. One of the main users of the freight service from Ballina is Coca-Cola beverages shipping soft drinks concentrate to Coca-Cola bottlers in the UK and Europe, all of this is shipped from East Coast ports Dublin and Waterford. One of the arguments is that this freight could be shipped to the Shannon port of Foynes via the new “freight only Western Rail corridor” through Claremorris Tuam and Athenry. I doubt very much that Coca-Cola wishes to add to shipping times to Europe and the UK by routing their concentrate shipments via Foynes. I also doubt whether Coca-Cola beverages has expressed any dissatisfaction with freight services from Ballina on the current railway network. 2.73 trains a day does not mean a new railway is needed.

I am pretty sure West on Track keep an eye on this forum - perhaps they could come out with some facts figures and proof on this new trick up their sleeve which they went crying to An Taoiseach about. Any news folks? And by the way do remember this is the organisation that had a forecast "demand" for the railway back in 2006 for 750,000 passenger journies per annum....Year 4 and with price discounting we have just hit half of the first year forecast in the business case on which the Athenry Ennis line was built, 50,000 (Year one forecast in business case 100,000 rising to 250,000 in year 3).

Someone at WOT needs to dig out their envelope and biro and sit down in the kitchen to send a Freight forecast to the Minister of Transport, he can then file it in fantasy projects folder.

Any link to this new WOT freight proposal?

Foynes tried containers a few years ago and quickly exited it as it was loss making.

Galway port are on about it but I can't see that working either.

westtip · 17-01-2015 6:13pm

elastico wrote: »

Any link to this new WOT freight proposal?

.

In a word no. It does not exist but we are all sitting here waiting with baited breath. Amazing how in all these years of campaigning for the WRC the freight argument has only just emerged from the smoke when the failure of phase one to attract the original number of passengers forecast has become so apparent.:D

corktina · 18-01-2015 12:18pm

FAO westtip

http://www.thejournal.ie/railway-line-midlands-1883898-Jan2015/?utm_source=twitter_self

westtip · 18-01-2015 12:29pm

corktina wrote: »

FAO westtip

http://www.thejournal.ie/railway-line-midlands-1883898-Jan2015/?utm_source=twitter_self

Very interesting as is this other click through from the same article

http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-rail-2-1879288-Jan2015/

deisegreenway · 18-01-2015 12:31pm

One of our group popped into National Photographic Archive this week and said this exhibit is a must-see for greenway supporters

eastwest · 29-01-2015 11:13pm

This from Sligo Today -- FG TD Tony McLoughlin pushing the case for development of the Western Rail Trail. Clearly, he can see which way the wind is blowing. http://www.sligotoday.ie/details.php?id=34842

eastwest · 01-02-2015 7:12pm

Indo calling it like it is, with it's top ten list of the greatest waste of taxpayers money. WRC comes in at #7.
http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/our-shameful-legacy-of-waste-and-incompetence-30953852.html

end of the road · 01-02-2015 7:26pm

eastwest wrote: »

Indo calling it like it is, with it's top ten list of the greatest waste of taxpayers money. WRC comes in at #7.
http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/our-shameful-legacy-of-waste-and-incompetence-30953852.html

its still the indo though. where are they getting the 200000000 from for the WRC? i thought it was 106000000. a lot of money either way but there is a big difference.

corktina · 01-02-2015 7:32pm

end of the road wrote: »

its still the indo though. where are they getting the 200000000 from for the WRC? i thought it was 106000000. a lot of money either way but there is a big difference.

includes the losses (or subsidy if you want to call it that) to date no doubt

end of the road · 01-02-2015 8:24pm

corktina wrote: »

includes the losses (or subsidy if you want to call it that) to date no doubt

oh i don't know. with that rag, you can't be sure

Grandeeod · 01-02-2015 8:35pm

end of the road wrote: »

oh i don't know. with that rag, you can't be sure

Well it was 100+ million anyway, plus whatever subvention it has received since. Still a ****load of money on a rail line that isn't setting the world alight.

westtip · 02-02-2015 12:59am

Whatever the actual figure is, the past few months press coverage and comments by politicians that matter ...like the Minister for Transport and An Taoiseach basically mean it is game over for West on Track. They can put on a brave face and talk about the high % increases in numbers on the Ennis/Athenry line last year but it is still only now hitting 50% of original year one forecasts/business case numbers. The project has failed to deliver, the most damning piece in that article is the sentence in the main body of the report which says

"The Western Rail Corridor was the ultimate Celtic Tiger pipe dream with a business case that never stacked up"

To remind anyone yet again The business case was for 100,000 passengers in year one rising to 250,000 per annum by year 3.
In year 4 and after massive price promotional work 50,000 passengers or 50% of year one forecasts have been achieved.

West on Track forecast a "demand" of 750,000 per annum in a press release in October 2006, read that number again and say it out loudn "Three quarters of a million!" Nobody could ever take a business case presentation from this organisation remotely seriously after these figures.....but watch out they will be coming out fighting soon with some more fairy tale forecasts soon about the potential for freight..... That nonsense will need to be nipped in the bud.

corktina · 02-02-2015 10:10am

the only potential for freight is by taking it away from an existing route.

Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

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