New agreement on 33 Hours

vamos! · 14-05-2014 7:38pm

RH149 wrote: »

Wouldn't mind Aug 25th.....we haven't had our meeting yet to decide on it yet but there's been talk of Thurs 21st... I think we have to start on Aug 22nd even if we don't add on CP hrs before that.

Thurs 21st and Fri 22nd being considered in my place at the mo. 25th is also an option. Will be decided early next week. I know it's allowing our conditions be eroded but if we coulnd't agree on 25th (what I would prefer), I would be happier with 21st than 22nd and get a CP day out of the way. We don't have a concrete proposed schedule but I would be interested to know how many evenings people are doing? We seemed to be at some form of a meeting or event every 2nd week this year.

km79 · 14-05-2014 8:08pm

RH149 wrote: »

Wouldn't mind Aug 25th.....we haven't had our meeting yet to decide on it yet but there's been talk of Thurs 21st... I think we have to start on Aug 22nd even if we don't add on CP hrs before that.

If the agreed calendar is stuck to and leaving cp hours aside then the 167 days can be fulfilled by starting in Tuesday 26tj!!!!
There is no way I'd agree to starting before Monday the 25th. NO WAY !!!
There is no need. And where will it end if that's agreed to........
We are starting back as Monday 25th a cp day.
Paddys days is a Tuesday this year so maybe your school is taking the Monday off too leading to the early August start.
I would not agree to that.
If people want a weekend drinking that's their business.
The holidays are about the only perk left. And I'd fight tooth and nail to keep them.
Also keep in mind any croke park session over 2 hours has to have been arranged with staff consultation

TheDriver · 14-05-2014 8:29pm

km79 wrote: »

If the agreed calendar is stuck to and leaving cp hours aside then the 167 days can be fulfilled by starting in Tuesday 26tj!!!!
There is no way I'd agree to starting before Monday the 25th. NO WAY !!!
There is no need. And where will it end if that's agreed to........
We are starting back as Monday 25th a cp day.
Paddys days is a Tuesday this year so maybe your school is taking the Monday off too leading to the early August start.
I would not agree to that.
If people want a weekend drinking that's their business.
The holidays are about the only perk left. And I'd fight tooth and nail to keep them.
Also keep in mind any croke park session over 2 hours has to have been arranged with staff consultation

A few factors to keep in mind: 167 days from Tues 26th don't leave anything for 8th Dec or 6th Jan if its a religious school (and they are the patrons and hence can force it via the board)
Staff consultation doesn't mean 100% staff vote yes either. And maybe people want a weekend's drinking. Indeed we might need it with the way things are going with the Govt....

km79 · 14-05-2014 8:41pm

TheDriver wrote: »

A few factors to keep in mind: 167 days from Tues 26th don't leave anything for 8th Dec or 6th Jan if its a religious school (and they are the patrons and hence can force it via the board)
Staff consultation doesn't mean 100% staff vote yes either. And maybe people want a weekend's drinking. Indeed we might need it with the way things are going with the Govt....

I'd prefer to have the weekend of 23/24th August for drinking

Our school is a catholic school.
We opened on dec 8th and jan 6th this year.
We had mass on the 2 days I think.
The days of schools opening/closing because of the church are/should be gone ......

linguist · 14-05-2014 8:59pm

As a language teacher, coming back early in August to get a couple of days off, particularly in the spring, is cutting off your nose to spite your face. The last thing I want coming up to the orals is to be losing class time. I imagine it's the same for a range of teachers with practicals etc. I would much rather take the month of August off, insofar as we possibly can, and then when we're back, we're back.

km79 · 14-05-2014 9:04pm

linguist wrote: »

As a language teacher, coming back early in August to get a couple of days off, particularly in the spring, is cutting off your nose to spite your face. The last thing I want coming up to the orals is to be losing class time. I imagine it's the same for a range of teachers with practicals etc. I would much rather take the month of August off, insofar as we possibly can, and then when we're back, we're back.

My sentiments EXACTLY
With the threat of working into June looming large I think its crazy to be AGREEING to come back earlier than even the dept are asking .......

Moody_mona · 14-05-2014 9:09pm

We're back on the 22nd for CP to take a long weekend during the first term, have the first Monday in October off, breaks up the long first few weeks.

evolving_doors · 14-05-2014 9:27pm

km79 wrote: »

My sentiments EXACTLY
With the threat of working into June looming large I think its crazy to be AGREEING to come back earlier than even the dept are asking .......

I think itll be put to the staff that ...shur look we come back early and get CP hours done and dusted, and maybe have better holidays during the school year...

Meanwhile down the tracks... New Jc has us in in june doing correcting/paperwork/meetings.

June gone
August half-gone

linguist · 14-05-2014 9:42pm

I can see the point in a long weekend at the end of September alright - it's actually good for the first years after the big transition to secondary school not to mention us.

On the June thing, what I would question is how they could expect teachers to be in and still have the numbers to superintend the LC and commence the marking process. I wouldn't be too pessimistic on that score yet because bluntly it doesn't add up.

happywithlife · 14-05-2014 10:01pm

linguist wrote: »

I can see the point in a long weekend at the end of September alright - it's actually good for the first years after the big transition to secondary school not to mention us.

On the June thing, what I would question is how they could expect teachers to be in and still have the numbers to superintend the LC and commence the marking process. I wouldn't be too pessimistic on that score yet because bluntly it doesn't add up.

LC could be supervised in house and there's currently plenty of marking conferences running concurrent with school timetable. I know leaving cert home ec for example have their marking conference on a fri/sat and marking is done by teachers during nov/dec/jan whilst they are still teaching their regular timetable. Most of the marking is completed before Xmas hols in case someone jumps the gun to say marking is done over the hols. It ain't. That's mostly revisions and reports afaik. So I'd be plenty pessimistic about the possibility of June being completely eroded too. 😫😫

linguist · 14-05-2014 10:24pm

Well with respect, the marking of the final examinations is done during the school holidays. I just think we need to deal in fact rather than fear on this one. The Minister has said that there is no plan to change the external nature of the Leaving Cert. If you have had any involvement in the process, then you would know that it would simply not be possible for Athlone to run every conference over a couple of weekends in June. Have you ever seen the type of logistical operation at the SEC there and the pressure it's under? Moreover, good luck getting the Hodson Bay and the other hotels to sacrifice some of the biggest wedding weekends of the year even if they could accommodate everyone at once which I don't believe they could.

The JCSA will happen in late May and yes, we may find ourselves assessing our own students and I don't like it one bit. But June will still belong to the SEC for the reasons I've outlined. And if, in four years time, I am proved totally wrong, well the virtual pint is on me:)

teacherhead · 14-05-2014 10:26pm

Id be of a mind to have a full croke park day in feb maybe rather than august. It allows fir a days work on getting reports done, planning for mocks and practicals etc.

a load of planning tine in august is useless Imo. Particularly if you only have students for morning sessions for the first day or so...

i know the day we did for the jc in march was welcomed by all and just gave a bit of headspace for the day.

happywithlife · 14-05-2014 10:33pm

linguist wrote: »

Well with respect, the marking of the final examinations is done during the school holidays. I just think we need to deal in fact rather than fear on this one. The Minister has said that there is no plan to change the external nature of the Leaving Cert. If you have had any involvement in the process, then you would know that it would simply not be possible for Athlone to run every conference over a couple of weekends in June. Have you ever seen the type of logistical operation at the SEC there and the pressure it's under? Moreover, good luck getting the Hodson Bay and the other hotels to sacrifice some of the biggest wedding weekends of the year even if they could accommodate everyone at once which I don't believe they could.

The JCSA will happen in late May and yes, we may find ourselves assessing our own students and I don't like it one bit. But June will still belong to the SEC for the reasons I've outlined. And if, in four years time, I am proved totally wrong, well the virtual pint is on me:)

Good points. Didn't think of the logistics 😏

On a different point following teacher heads post - have you all had info days/sessions in school at this stage on the new framework?

km79 · 14-05-2014 10:36pm

happywithlife wrote: »

Good points. Didn't think of the logistics ðŸ˜

On a different point following teacher heads post - have you all had info days/sessions in school at this stage on the new framework?

No

acequion · 14-05-2014 10:56pm

km79 wrote: »

No

No,because thankfully that's blocked by the union ballot to not cooperate.

In our school we were asked about coming back on 21st /22nd August and thankfully it was a resounding no. There appears to be unanimity on the need to protect the erosion our holidays and I am fully with those who want the summer hols and not drinking long weekends.

We have the same problem as many about the 6th January. It's crazy that that kind of church straitjacket control still exists.

evolving_doors · 15-05-2014 1:14am

acequion wrote: »

No,because thankfully that's blocked by the union ballot to not cooperate.

In our school we were asked about coming back on 21st /22nd August and thankfully it was a resounding no. There appears to be unanimity on the need to protect the erosion our holidays and I am fully with those who want the summer hols and not drinking long weekends.

We have the same problem as many about the 6th January. It's crazy that that kind of church straitjacket control still exists.

Aye we're being offered 20th 21st or 22nd combinations, and I know it'll be sold to the staff as a good thing to get CP over and done with as early as possibly in august, coupled with the promise of Long weekends to break up the term. I have a feeling that the staff will buy into it too... time to start some Derren Brown mind manipulation as it's the thin end of the wedge I reckon.

The 'drinking weekends' are a real killer if you have any double classes on Mondays... compounded with Bank holidays etc. and you have lost a significant proportion of the course. This year was nuts for Mondays.

teacherhead · 15-05-2014 7:25am

Armelodie wrote: »

Aye we're being offered 20th 21st or 22nd combinations, and I know it'll be sold to the staff as a good thing to get CP over and done with as early as possibly in august, coupled with the promise of Long weekends to break up the term. I have a feeling that the staff will buy into it too... time to start some Derren Brown mind manipulation as it's the thin end of the wedge I reckon.

The 'drinking weekends' are a real killer if you have any double classes on Mondays... compounded with Bank holidays etc. and you have lost a significant proportion of the course. This year was nuts for Mondays.

make that point and ask for Fridays instead. 6 hours is all you can count a day for so one day will leave you with 27 hours less 5 as none whole school is 22. That's 11 evenings.

with ptm's if you are buying back hours and if you have other things like a graduation that used to happen in school time you can eat up a few more hours.

km79 · 15-05-2014 7:46am

Armelodie wrote: »

Aye we're being offered 20th 21st or 22nd combinations, and I know it'll be sold to the staff as a good thing to get CP over and done with as early as possibly in august, coupled with the promise of Long weekends to break up the term. I have a feeling that the staff will buy into it too... time to start some Derren Brown mind manipulation as it's the thin end of the wedge I reckon.

The 'drinking weekends' are a real killer if you have any double classes on Mondays... compounded with Bank holidays etc. and you have lost a significant proportion of the course. This year was nuts for Mondays.

Excellent point about the doubles actually . This year 2 of my 5th year classes had doubles on Mondays. Was chasing my tail most of the year making up for lost Mondays

teacherhead · 15-05-2014 10:54pm

New circular on S&S. They have taken a very simple process ad made it very difficult from what I can see.

and all to be ready before school reopens!

TheDriver · 15-05-2014 11:05pm

It looks terribly complicated but at same time, ensures all staff follow the procedure......

teacherhead · 15-05-2014 11:07pm

TheDriver wrote: »

It looks terribly complicated but at same time, ensures all staff follow the procedure......

yeah it is fair at least. And it leaves you with options for last class Friday. May get the ould excel up and running

Chancer3001 · 15-05-2014 11:15pm

What's so complicated about it?

RH149 · 16-05-2014 7:30pm

Arggh...Quote not working....

No, we don't have any extra time off for St. Patricks Day but we have absolutely no say about Jan 6th and Dec 8th- our principal may as well wear a collar as we are completely tied to the church holidays- he tells us its the BOM but I'm pretty sure they just rubber stamp whatever he says.
Of course come Dec 8th the day off is nice especially as both of my kids have school(in their Catholic primary and secondary schools) and I can actually get a bit of shopping done but its not worth the gradual eroding of August....its also playing havoc with childcare arrangements. Each year I have to ask my child minder to start earlier and earlier- I feel like she's doing CP hours too....except she's getting paid for them! I used to feel bad asking her to keep the last week in August free, now its heading for the last two weeks.

implausible · 16-05-2014 10:37pm

teacherhead wrote: »

6 hours is all you can count a day for

According to TUI president, a full day has been agreed as 7 hours.

teacherhead wrote: »

New circular on S&S. They have taken a very simple process ad made it very difficult from what I can see.

and all to be ready before school reopens!

One good thing is it specifies that staff have to receive timetables before returning to school. This has never happened in my school, so this is progress imo.

teacherhead · 16-05-2014 11:48pm

implausible wrote: »

According to TUI president, a full day has been agreed as 7 hours.

One good thing is it specifies that staff have to receive timetables before returning to school. This has never happened in my school, so this is progress imo.

Gerry is a great man for saying stuff that pleases the crowd. Id like to see it in writing myself.

the TT will be a provisional timetable if it's coming in mid august. It will be subject to alteration as additional allocation comes and appointments are confirmed etc. My worry about this is that if there is change that people will be sour over it whereas if they never saw the earlier version they would be ok.

implausible · 16-05-2014 11:58pm

teacherhead wrote: »

Gerry is a great man for saying stuff that pleases the crowd. Id like to see it in writing myself.

The writing is what we're all waiting on. A clarification document was due this week. They don't seem to have learned from the last time when the IVEA released their own guidelines first and the VECs stuck (well our one anyway) to them like glue, ignoring the TUI document. It's a large part of the reason why the CP hours have been so inflexible and resented in our schools.

In fairness to him, it sounded like the seven hours thing had been mutually agreed. We'll have to wait and see.

implausible · 17-05-2014 12:06am

teacherhead wrote: »

the TT will be a provisional timetable if it's coming in mid august. It will be subject to alteration as additional allocation comes and appointments are confirmed etc. My worry about this is that if there is change that people will be sour over it whereas if they never saw the earlier version they would be ok.

I still reckon it's an improvement on landing into school being unaware of who or what you're teaching. It doesn't really affect me personally, I have first year to LC English every year, but there are teachers in my school who have often had 2 days (if even) notice of taking on a different subject and/or level. Other teachers will appreciate knowing if they have a late morning or early evening.

It might cut out some of the nonsense around resource hours too and force principals to plan for them instead of firing them into a timetable as an afterthought. And yes, I know all of the issues around allocations coming late and being subject to change and appeal, but there are plenty that are predictable and can be planned for.

ustazjoseph · 20-05-2014 6:58pm

teacherhead wrote: »

New circular on S&S. They have taken a very simple process ad made it very difficult from what I can see.

and all to be ready before school reopens!

I thought it was just me. ! it feels like as time and my career moves on i am becoming less competent. I have a small staff team and this system makes no sense at all.

implausible · 20-05-2014 10:34pm

ustazjoseph wrote: »

I thought it was just me. ! it feels like as time and my career moves on i am becoming less competent. I have a small staff team and this system makes no sense at all.

I think this is arising out of problems where principals were just assigning teachers to slots with no consultation. This seemed to happen in schools where a lot of teachers previously hadn't done s/s. When our VP saw this, he thought it was daft as it's pretty much what he had been doing anyway - the system was fairly transparent. I'd say it's to make sure it's fair and transparent (and complicated) everywhere.

deiseindublin · 22-05-2014 11:53pm

***

teacherhead · 23-05-2014 12:18am

I wouldn't think so

Chancer3001 · 23-05-2014 8:05am

Only if staff agreed

teacherhead · 23-05-2014 2:43pm

Even at that if you had one person who was unhappy you'd leave yourself open to serious grief.

Peter Flynt · 29-05-2014 3:49pm

teacherhead wrote: »

Gerry is a great man for saying stuff that pleases the crowd. Id like to see it in writing myself.

the TT will be a provisional timetable if it's coming in mid august. It will be subject to alteration as additional allocation comes and appointments are confirmed etc. My worry about this is that if there is change that people will be sour over it whereas if they never saw the earlier version they would be ok.

. . . And you're a great man for revealing your own ignorance

This is from the ASTI website from September 2011.

evolving_doors · 29-05-2014 4:30pm

Peter Flynt wrote: »

. . . And you're a great man for revealing your own ignorance

This is from the ASTI website from September 2011.

Speaking of which...

Mod warning:

Member banned for being uncivil

teacherhead · 29-05-2014 6:00pm

Peter Flynt wrote: »

. . . And you're a great man for revealing your own ignorance

This is from the ASTI website from September 2011.

Which proves nothing. A working lunch for God's sake. It's either 6 or its 7 one or the other. My understanding is tgat it can be counted as 7 now without a working lunch which was the whole point.

Peter Flynt · 31-05-2014 11:41am

teacherhead wrote: »

Which proves nothing. A working lunch for God's sake. It's either 6 or its 7 one or the other. My understanding is tgat it can be counted as 7 now without a working lunch which was the whole point.

A "working lunch" is me sitting around having lunch with my subject department colleagues . . . Which I do in anyway.

Basically a full Croke Park day is 7 hours.

Of course many management only include it 6 hours

endakenny · 31-05-2014 6:45pm

teacherhead wrote: »

I think that everyone should be prepared to accept that some teachers only want to do their teaching, they don't want to do extra curricular or get into management etc. That is a personal choice and should be respected.

I also think, however, that all teachers should give a bit back to the school if they can and help out with things like open evenings and graduations etc.

The traditional understanding of the word "graduation" is that it means receiving a certificate for the course that you have studied after passing the final exams of that course. The farewell ceremonies for Leaving Cert students take place before even the first exam starts, never mind before the results are published. Therefore, the referral to farewell ceremonies as "graduations" is blatantly erroneous and one of the most BS forms of political correctness.

seavill · 31-05-2014 6:53pm

endakenny wrote: »

The traditional understanding of the word "graduation" is that it means receiving a certificate for the course that you have studied after passing the final exams of that course. The farewell ceremonies for Leaving Cert students take place before even the first exam starts, never mind before the results are published. Therefore, the referral to farewell ceremonies as "graduations" is blatantly erroneous and one of the most BS forms of political correctness.

What has that got to do with anything, get a grip for god sake

Peter Flynt · 31-05-2014 7:00pm

What day are you returning on?

Aug 25 for me.

Last year it was Aug 21 . . .

One Croke Park day

seavill · 31-05-2014 7:03pm

25tg also had option of 21 or 22. Voted as 25th

endakenny · 31-05-2014 8:14pm

seavill wrote: »

What has that got to do with anything, get a grip for god sake

It was teacherhead who mentioned "graduations". Why shouldn't I respond to it?

seavill · 31-05-2014 8:27pm

endakenny wrote: »

It was teacherhead who mentioned "graduations". Why shouldn't I respond to it?

Because the technicalities of the word grad which is used all over has got nothing to do with the thread in fairness

teacherhead · 31-05-2014 9:47pm

endakenny wrote: »

The traditional understanding of the word "graduation" is that it means receiving a certificate for the course that you have studied after passing the final exams of that course. The farewell ceremonies for Leaving Cert students take place before even the first exam starts, never mind before the results are published. Therefore, the referral to farewell ceremonies as "graduations" is blatantly erroneous and one of the most BS forms of political correctness.

blatantly erroneous or otherwise that is what they are called. it doesn't change what I was saying.

this post adds nothing to the debate, it splits a hair.

in any case the ceremonies are a very important part of every school year in most schools and will continue unabated....

New agreement on 33 Hours

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