60% of parents opposed to Teacher Assessment JC

acequion · 24-05-2014 10:32pm

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

You are such a hypocrite! You have sought to do the exact same, but from the other side.

Having read and thought, I have decided the JCSA is a positive reform. I do not agree that the contributors to this thread have given "excellent reasons and examples as to why Quinn's reforms at best are a bad idea", which is why my opinion hasn't changed. However, and it's happened on several occasions, I am perfectly willing to change strongly-held opinions if presented with evidence and convincing arguments.

Are you incapable of giving any evidence?! All of the above is hearsay!

How dare you call me a hypocrite!! There are many names you could be called but I have more manners. I couldn't care less about winning debates and especially not with people like you. I happen to be passionate about this because I am a very experienced and dedicated teacher and can see that the JCSA is all wrong for Irish education. In any case Ruari Quinn is only interested in cutting costs.

Typical of your attitude that you reject the evidence that I've given you as you've rejected everything that everyone has written. This isn't a court of law where I have to produce something irrefutable.Hearsay from other professionals with first hand experience of the negative impact of increased bureaucracy on the education of their pupils is good enough for me.There have been several published criticisms of OBE. If you're so widely read as you claim,you must be aware of them.

In any case I will not be responding to any more of your posts.

endakenny · 24-05-2014 10:33pm

km79 wrote: »

It has been confirmed. Another ballot !!!
Ballot is on strike action and will take place early August........unless of course it's all posturing and we will be sold out over the summer again.......
http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/asti-to-ballot-on-further-industrial-action-over-junior-cycle//back_to/latest-news/

I haven't heard of a case in which the CEC of the ASTI decided to hold a ballot on industrial action and then revoked that decision.

acequion · 24-05-2014 10:41pm

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

You are such a hypocrite! You have sought to do the exact same, but from the other side.

Having read and thought, I have decided the JCSA is a positive reform. I do not agree that the contributors to this thread have given "excellent reasons and examples as to why Quinn's reforms at best are a bad idea", which is why my opinion hasn't changed. However, and it's happened on several occasions, I am perfectly willing to change strongly-held opinions if presented with evidence and convincing arguments.

Are you incapable of giving any evidence?! All of the above is hearsay!

I have reported the above post because of the name calling,"hypocrite" and the tone.

Mr Pseudonym · 24-05-2014 10:46pm

I used the noun in question to describe the poster who, I believe, was being hypocritical - defined by The Free Dictionary as being characterised by "the practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess." I stand by that.

spurious · 24-05-2014 10:52pm

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

I used the noun in question to describe the poster who, I believe, was being hypocritical - defined by The Free Dictionary as being characterised by "the practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess." I stand by that.

You clearly attacked the poster, not the post.
Don't do it again.

rainbowtrout · 25-05-2014 1:13am

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

The bulk comes from the course-work because it's not challenging and doesn't seek to differentiate students. If the children of parents who meddle end up doing badly as a result of that, the parents will soon stop.

I don't think your impression of fee-paying schools is accurate.

Why do you dismiss everybody else's view because it's different from your own? This information comes from teacher friends of mine working in private schools. This is their experience. Are you suggesting they are all lying? It is also my experience having examined in private schools.

I think your perception of what goes on in a private school as a former student of one and my perception of what goes on as an examiner dealing with teachers in one are vastly different scenarios.

And I know the coursework isn't challenging, but that makes no difference to the student who lands into 5th year with their D in Science telling you they are going to do LC Physics/Chemistry because they passed higher level. They don't perceive the grade the same was as I do. And therein lies the problem.

Mr Pseudonym · 25-05-2014 1:50am

I debate in uni, so maybe my style of posting comes across as more aggressive than it actually is. The reality is that I am a shy, slightly geeky, and generally well-liked student who is very interested in education. When I say that I think a poster is wrong, it's not that I am dismissing their opinion, just explicitly stating that it's not compatible with my opinion (which I don't hold to be fact). I'm used to having intense debates which divide opinion but after which there are no hard feelings, therefore, I'm surprised by the level of acrimony I receive in this sub-forum, and intend to discontinue contributing to it.

evolving_doors · 25-05-2014 9:14am

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

The bulk comes from the course-work because it's not challenging and doesn't seek to differentiate students. If the children of parents who meddle end up doing badly as a result of that, the parents will soon stop.

I don't think your impression of fee-paying schools is accurate.

I work in said school and rainbowtrout is spot on.

"The parents will soon stop!" .... not necessarily.

Those parents are a small minority though. But then again they usually shout the loudest.

Balance an anonymous marker in a high stakes exam with a teacher correcting their own student. Which would you prefer?

There are plenty of reasons why teachers are against it so the ' potential for grade tampering' is only one aspect. Previously I would have been of the opinion that I correct 1st,2nd,ty,5th year exams so how is this any different? Now I realise that there is much more devil in the detail...
1. A poorly laid out curriculum modeled on UK buzz words.."key skills and outcomes" .
2. No attempt at standardisation of results with the continuous assessment model..one class paints a lovely picture of historical event/everyone gets A's...another class undertakes indepth research with primary and secondary sources and gives a presentation/only one student gets A ...the result is that both teachers are given a gentle trap on the shoulder and told to ammend their grades if they want to keep their job.
3. Linking results to pay and teacher performance. Its not explicit but if you have been following the comments in the media by the powers that be, you will understand.

Have a look through previous threads on the Jc and then maybe come back to the debate again

the_syco · 25-05-2014 9:59am

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

WHY WOULD ANYONE PAY?!!! Also, why would any private-school-parent risk the embarrassment of that becoming known?

"If my child passes with full A's, I'll be giving the school X amount of cash for Y upcoming project". It's quite clear that the school won't get the money if the kid doesn't get the grades.

rainbowtrout · 25-05-2014 10:54am

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

I debate in uni, so maybe my style of posting comes across as more aggressive than it actually is. The reality is that I am a shy, slightly geeky, and generally well-liked student who is very interested in education. When I say that I think a poster is wrong, it's not that I am dismissing their opinion, just explicitly stating that it's not compatible with my opinion (which I don't hold to be fact). I'm used to having intense debates which divide opinion but after which there are no hard feelings, therefore, I'm surprised by the level of acrimony I receive in this sub-forum, and intend to discontinue contributing to it.

The problem is Mr. Pseudonym that you are dismissive. You have dismissed pretty much every teacher's opinion on this forum based on the fact that you claim to be more widely read than the rest of us and every one of our real life daily experiences in the classroom has been dismissed by you as only happening in a tiny minority of cases and when teachers claim that it happens regularly you dismiss that as well.

You can debate points in theory to the end of the earth in your college debating society but the people on this forum are not here for a theoretical debate or to score points off each other. Quinn is trying to push through a new method of assessment. Teachers are concerned because they can see with their own eyes from their everyday experience a variety of reasons why it won't work.

MrJones1973 · 27-05-2014 7:00am

We all know cases of Teachers being unprofessional. ie Practically writing or doing projects. Happens all the time. What about a student who has drawn a huge pxxxx on your desk. How professional would you be then? I dont mean to be base but we are human beings. In the private sector-arse lickers get promoted. Those who are independently minded often dont. Sure look how the electorate fell for Gilmore and Bertie. So please please spare me the magic totem pole of Professionalism which all teachers supposedly bow to. They dont and wont. They try but often fail. They are only human. What I call professional-you might not. We aim for objectivity but we are human. Who will present a list of failures when writing a passage will get the student over the line? You shouldnt but many will.

I know of a kid in England who got a C grade in English GSCE-turns out he couldnt speak or write English. Look at TES site-they are very professional in the way they teach in UK-OTT but it still happens over there.
One teachers help is another' s non professionalism.

Btw-Pat king pointed out the flip flops on Indo. The previous week they had a story showing parents trust teachers to be professional or something similar. If they were one human being-you would accuse them of muliple personality disorder. Quinn uses media but ultimately its how much teachers want to fight this. We tangle ourselves up in knots worrying about a media-whose pages have more on Kim Khardistain than serious issues.

Peter Flynt · 29-05-2014 10:42am

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

We all know cases of Teachers being unprofessional. ie Practically writing or doing projects.

If you have continuous assessment (coursework worth a large percentage of a grade) then students are going to receive considerable and varying assistance depending on their abilities.

For example - In JC Science the coursework A/B element (worth 35%) is quite difficult for some students and considerable teacher help is required. Now is this classified as "unprofessional" . . . I don't think so but it seems pathetic to me that there are some on here who adopt a holier than thou attitude to assisting students.

CA creates problems everywhere and leads to inequality between those students who have access to extra tuition and those who do not. For instance in LC History a project component worth 25% of the final examination is included. If you're a history teacher/graduate does your son or daughter doing the LC get preferential treatment. . . Of course they do. Is that teacher unprofessional? Nope - Absolutely not.

So less of the labels as a teacher who adopts an indifferent attitude to a student clearly struggling to understand what they're doing could also be labelled unprofessional

Peter Flynt · 29-05-2014 10:54am

The most interesting part of the JC reform is on how Quinn keeps talking about exams and of the need to remove exams blah, blah, blah. . . .

Every teacher on here knows that the whole purpose of these "reforms" is to save money - roughly 30 million a year - by getting secondary teachers to supervise and mark the examinations themselves (without paying them of course).

Rather than admit that this is the real policy Quinn has been fudging the issue with "children are not learning" in secondary schools as they're "preparing for exams when they should be having fun, play groups, discussions [anything which involves them having to work basically]

Yet every JCSA subject has a 60% TERMINAL examination component. . . . Is Quinn trying to infer that these are not exams at all . . . Only students sitting in an exam hall writing down stuff on paper?

The assessment criteria is not changing dramatically but Quinn is using the media to state that this new JCSA is some sort of revolutionary course that will transform Education (this is to appease parents and it is nothing of the sort).

acequion · 29-05-2014 12:47pm

Peter Flynt wrote: »

The most interesting part of the JC reform is on how Quinn keeps talking about exams and of the need to remove exams blah, blah, blah. . . .

Every teacher on here knows that the whole purpose of these "reforms" is to save money - roughly 30 million a year - by getting secondary teachers to supervise and mark the examinations themselves (without paying them of course).

Rather than admit that this is the real policy Quinn has been fudging the issue with "children are not learning" in secondary schools as they're "preparing for exams when they should be having fun, play groups, discussions [anything which involves them having to work basically]

Yet every JCSA subject has a 60% TERMINAL examination component. . . . Is Quinn trying to infer that these are not exams at all . . . Only students sitting in an exam hall writing down stuff on paper?

The assessment criteria is not changing dramatically but Quinn is using the media to state that this new JCSA is some sort of revolutionary course that will transform Education (this is to appease parents and it is nothing of the sort).

You are completely right here and it's a point I've made at union meetings and it's a crucial point that needs widespread recognition. All this spin by Quinn that 14 year old boys disengage and that the new programme will be so much more student friendly is horseshyte in the extreme!

For example,take the present JC English course which is not "fit for purpose" according to Quinn. Let's say you've got a good class.You push them, you do a Shakespearian play,you do maybe six poems in detail and a smattering of others. You do a novel.You spend a lot of time developing their imaginations and their writing skills in different tasks.Plenty oral discussions take place as well. The teacher has the freedom to choose the texts.

Now let's say you've a fairly weak class,maybe full of the said 14 year old boys who're disengaged. They still want to try the higher level though. Now these young lads and lassies are disengaged,as you'd expect to varying degrees with 14 year olds. Do you foist Romeo, with the proverbial hots for the virginal Rosalind, upon them and expect them to engage with Petrarchan love poetry and learn a rake of quotes? Not, if you've a whit of sense, you don't. You do something like The Field,with the Bull roaring around the place and you act that out with them.Huge engagement.Great craic. Everyone is happy. Now you'll get those with all sorts of arguments that all higher level JC English should do a Shakespearian play,but that's another argument.

Now fast forward to Quinn's "ground breaking" reforms. Higher and ordinary still there but the choice of texts is now removed from the teacher, as it will be a prescribed course.A Shakespearian play will now be compulsory at higher level, as well as a hugely increased number of poems and also more novels. Does that sound much more enjoyable and more "fun"?? You'd want to have a very strange sense of "fun" to think so. And is that more student friendly?? People have to see that this is a high handed way of getting "more for less" from teachers,while actually making the course harder,more pressurised and in reality, much less student friendly.

And folks, that's just one subject,that's only the start!

Have a great summer everyone! Because we've a lot of work to do in September to resist this farce which Ruari Qunn,from his nearly redundant Labour Party,calls "reform".

MrJones1973 · 29-05-2014 10:15pm

If Quinn gets dumped over summer-anyone on for a few pints in town -Dublin?

60% of parents opposed to Teacher Assessment JC

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