Des Hanlon Memorial, March 23 2014, Carlow

fortis · 24-03-2014 2:28pm

I don't think it is too difficult to design a system that caters for all, Juniors and seniors alike.

But like someone pointed out, a system where 8 people can amass 1100 points without promotion is clearly dysfunctional.

It's apathy is keeping the situation as it is, apathy on the part of CI, and apathy on the part of race organizers who can't (won't) seem to count past 6.

But organizing races is a thankless job (I know I've been involved before) so I think the majority of the burden lies with CI. Why not implement a timing chip system? Triathlon and running have been doing this for years. Different sports in that you are essentially racing yourself, but still participation and even competition is encouraged.

To turn up to races to constantly see the same faces constantly handing out a beating, it's demoralising. For the same reason being A2 is demoralizing. Seems to me the majority aren't being catered for at all

And all the talk of juniors. Don't get me wrong but is the purpose of open racing to develop juniors for the international ranks? What are the rest of us there for so? This doesn't happen in other amateur sports (a sole focus on developing junior talent, it tends to happen organically, talent will always emerge). This is amateur sport especially at the lower levels, treat it as thus. Guys are paying a license to race in open races among their peers, not to get a hammering week in week out. Leave the juniors out of it for a second as I think that is a parallel argument.

If CI have determined (for good reasons it seems) that constantly putting Junior with A3 is a good idea, but don't see that the reverse is not true...It can't be that hard to fix. It's not. Just reading this forum, plenty of good suggestions have been put forward. Act on them.

ED is fantastic, but not an isolated case. Ryan Mullen was handing out drubbings two years ago ( A solo win in Nenagh springs to mind). I guess you could argue it didn't do him any harm mind, he has gone on to great success. I think he would have had that success however even if he was racing A1 as a junior because like Dunbar he was/is just unbelieveably talented at a young age.

So I guess the question ultimately is, does CI care about the average eejit licence holder or do they only care about high performance? I think they only care about high performance and couldn't give a hoot about the ordinary A4/3/2 type.

This is reflected in the current setup

Lumen · 24-03-2014 2:30pm

fondriest wrote: »

I would rather earn an A2 licence than tick a box on a licence form to get it.

There is no difference in outcome, so that is not rational. Just be your own grading officer.

ragazzo · 24-03-2014 3:03pm

There have always been talented youth and junior riders throughout the years. Look back at any 3Day classification sheet from the last decade and you will see the evidence. Unfortunately there are not too many of those names who made it past 19 or 20. Years of overtraining and riding A level races turned them off the sport. Used and physically abused when they should have been nurtured and developed to their full potential.
This behaviour led to a serious lack of junior riders in this country (20 Irish riders or less in the junior tour some years) and the inability to continue with a separate Junior grade.
Thanks to the input of a few people like Wav1 this situation is being slowly turned around. Now we are beginning to witness a credible and talented group of junior riders. This is what the sport is all about. Developing the present to build and maintain the future.

To argue that juniors should be riding A1 races so that 'normal' A3 riders can gain points and upgrades is entertaining but based on ignorance or self interest.

Leave the juniors develop and we might have a decent A1 category in the near future. We don't have one now as can be witnessed by the age of the various winners and the reality that numbers cannot sustain a separate racing programme. Plenty of A2 riders for their own race, small number of racing A1 riders seems to be the problem.

The future is looking good regarding talent and hopefully that talent will be allowed to develop to its fullest instead of being burnt out and tossed aside like so many in the past.

As for A3 riders worrying about points and upgrades... If you cannot obtain points in an A3 race then the higher category is probably not the place for you. It might be in the future as development and progress happens to a certain extent for all riders.

lennymc · 24-03-2014 3:08pm

ragazzo wrote: »

As for A3 riders worrying about points and upgrades... If you cannot obtain points in an A3 race then the higher category is probably not the place for you. It might be in the future as development and progress happens to a certain extent for all riders.

this.

fortis · 24-03-2014 3:10pm

"If you cannot obtain points in an A3 race then the higher category is probably not the place for you. It might be in the future as development and progress happens to a certain extent for all riders."

Catch 22 springs to mind.

I don't think most A3 riders are "worried" about points and upgrades. But they would like a fair race and not to be sitting there after 10K on a training spin. Same for A2.

At the moment the races are not fair. That's obvious.

The same could be said of Super Vets dropping back to collect a few pots. If that's not self interest...

ragazzo · 24-03-2014 3:19pm

fortis wrote: »

"If you cannot obtain points in an A3 race then the higher category is probably not the place for you. It might be in the future as development and progress happens to a certain extent for all riders."

Catch 22 springs to mind.

I don't think most A3 riders are "worried" about points and upgrades. But they would like a fair race and not to be sitting there after 10K on a training spin. Same for A2.

At the moment the races are not fair. That's obvious.

The same could be said of Super Vets dropping back to collect a few pots. If that's not self interest...

When the burnt out juniors make their comeback to the sport as vets will you be trying to regrade them then too.... When they win a race or show a flash of their wasted talent.
Will you call them supervets and castigate them as mere pothunters?

Good job!

i_surge · 24-03-2014 3:20pm

Just for the point of argument - why not get the best juniors to race with A1/A2 where they're evidently competitive but race less often under the guidance of a good coach.

All the mistakes of the past with over training and burnout at 19 or 20 can be easily managed by a good coach.

I'm speculating but I guess the cause was often unrestrained over enthusiasm leading to burnout (too much hard training AND hard racing) not that the races themselves were overly hard or long.

It could be a solution to let the average frustrated A3 catch a break every now and then.

morana · 24-03-2014 3:22pm

Amos Eager Headboard wrote: »

Is this true? I used LCHF to drop the weight but now eating normally....would be interesting to know their usage of it now especially prep for racing....

yes according to Ryan Sherlocks twitter feed

fortis · 24-03-2014 3:23pm

Yes! Because anyone young or old, big or small who has the talent and ability to amass 15 points in a year (which means two race wins or a number of placings) should be promoted to the next level!

Simples!

I can't see how there can be a counter argument to that!

joe50 · 24-03-2014 3:36pm

also, anyone pretending that irish young lads getting "burnt out" on the continent wasn't at least partly due to rampant doping in the peloton is deluding themselves...

nobody's arguing that the juniors flogging themselves from post to pillar is what we're aiming for.. but if one option sees the best juniors having competitive racing and occasionally having their asses handed to them.. and the other option has them routinely doing 100k time-trials.. then surely anyone in their right minds would go for the latter option?

ragazzo · 24-03-2014 3:39pm

fortis wrote: »

Yes! Because anyone young or old, big or small who has the talent and ability to amass 15 points in a year (which means two race wins or a number of placings) should be promoted to the next level!

Simples!

I can't see how there can be a counter argument to that!

The last time I checked 1 race win would not earn an upgrade and as far as I know there are no CI points awarded for showing flashes of former talent.

You need to comprehend the circumstances to get past the simples and maybe then you would see more than your own slanted view.

fortis · 24-03-2014 3:40pm

Agreed

No-one here is advocating whipping the juniors to death. Just a fair and equitable system.

Same goes for the vets. Anyone capable of getting 15 points in a season should be promoted. Period. If they don't like that they don't need to race.

fondriest · 24-03-2014 3:41pm

Lumen wrote: »

There is no difference in outcome, so that is not rational. Just be your own grading officer.

I think it perfectly rational to earn something instead of being handed it on a plate. MY LEGS CAN BE MY GRADING OFFICER .

fortis · 24-03-2014 3:46pm

ragazzo, I said TWO race wins (read it again) or a number of placings

And judging from the general consensus on this forum, it is you who seems to have the slanted view that people should not be promoted on reaching 15 points as stated clearly in the CI rules.

Were the system being run as it should be there would already have been a number of promotions in all categories. Thereby evening out the numbers in all cats (including A1).

Like I said, it is simple.

smurphy29 · 24-03-2014 3:47pm

Out of interest, does anyone know how these things work in other countries, say UK, where cycling is taking off in a similar way to over here.

I presume in Belgium and France and the like they have the numbers for the juniors to have their own category?

Lumen · 24-03-2014 3:55pm

fondriest wrote: »

I think it perfectly rational to earn something instead of being handed it on a plate. MY LEGS CAN BE MY GRADING OFFICER .

But you're arguing for the rules to be changed to make it easier, which is just asking for it to be handed to you on a plate.

The only difference is that you're recruiting a third party into your self-aggrandisement, which suggests you have some sort of pro-authoritarian personality defect. :pac:

ragazzo · 24-03-2014 4:03pm

fortis wrote: »

ragazzo, I said TWO race wins (read it again) or a number of placings

And judging from the general consensus on this forum, it is you who seems to have the slanted view that people should not be promoted on reaching 15 points as stated clearly in the CI rules.

Were the system being run as it should be there would already have been a number of promotions in all categories. Thereby evening out the numbers in all cats (including A1).

Like I said, it is simple.

Yes, but you were referring to one of my posts in your answer which mentioned a race win or showing a flash of wasted talent. Not 15 points available for that.

I am not sure where I ever posted about riders not being upgraded on amassing the appropriate number of points. My argument is about protecting and developing our junior riders. I am not too perturbed by the general consensus on this forum as I believe in my argument. Others may not ... That makes the world go around. I have not reached dictator status yet and respect the notion that sometimes people may disagree with me.

Riders are always upgraded when they reach the appropriate number of points. There have been many upgrades in all categories(except A1 obviously) already this season. The system seems to be working as it should. Who are all these riders who should have been upgraded, according to yourself, but have been mysteriously overlooked by the 'system'.

fortis · 24-03-2014 4:14pm

This for example:

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/carrick-veteran-martin-oloughlin-tops-a3-early-season-rankings-after-very-strong-run/

Before that race Martin O Loughlin was already on 15 points. So he shouldnt have even been in it technically but in the A2 bunch. But he was. And he won it.

And I'm not taking a swipe at him (don't know him from adam tbh), just pointing out the fact.

Same for the other 6. Can you definitively say they are all now promoted to A2 and no longer racing A3?

mark kiernan · 24-03-2014 4:15pm

a rider over 50yrs of age doesnt upgrade they can stay were they are ,and rightly so
a rider reaching 46 can downgrade to a3 but when they get 15 points they move up

fondriest · 24-03-2014 4:21pm

Lumen wrote: »

But you're arguing for the rules to be changed to make it easier, which is just asking for it to be handed to you on a plate.

The only difference is that you're recruiting a third party into your self-aggrandisement, which suggests you have some sort of pro-authoritarian personality defect. :pac:

So racing against other A3s is equal to it being handed on a plate ? By the way I'm not actually racing this year but I can see what's fair and what isn't . And thank you for pointing out my personality defect . I'll try get that sorted .

Chips Lovell · 24-03-2014 4:24pm

fortis wrote: »

To turn up to races to constantly see the same faces constantly handing out a beating, it's demoralising.

[...]

Guys are paying a license to race in open races among their peers, not to get a hammering week in week out.

I'm sorry, but you're exaggerating this out of all proportion. Nobody's getting hammered week in, week out. I've been doing these races myself. It's only in a minority of races that the good juniors can dominate like that.The day before, at the Lucan GP, the boot was on the other foot and they were the ones suffering when it was lined out at 50-60kph.

i_surge wrote: »

Just for the point of argument - why not get the best juniors to race with A1/A2 where they're evidently competitive but race less often under the guidance of a good coach.

All the mistakes of the past with over training and burnout at 19 or 20 can be easily managed by a good coach.

That's pretty much what the situation is at the moment. They are under guidance and how much top level racing they do is really rationed out.

ragazzo · 24-03-2014 4:24pm

fortis wrote: »

This for example:

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/carrick-veteran-martin-oloughlin-tops-a3-early-season-rankings-after-very-strong-run/

Before that race Martin O Loughlin was already on 15 points. So he shouldnt have even been in it technically but in the A2 bunch. But he was. And he won it.

And I'm not taking a swipe at him (don't know him from adam tbh), just pointing out the fact.

Same for the other 6. Can you definitively say they are all now promoted to A2 and no longer racing A3?

It seems that he was on 15 points before the Carrick race and was therefore an A2 rider. Riders are upgraded as soon as they reach the points quota and do not have to be informed by CI. There is a delay in receiving new numbers and licence. I would never seek to defend Martin and he should address that issue himself.

Riders knowingly signing on for a race below their category... Sad!

fortis · 24-03-2014 4:27pm

I wouldn't say rightly so. If they are capable of winning races and getting places week in week out why is that rightly so? Are we discriminating on age now?

The same rules should apply to everyone. Otherwise it's tampering to suit a few.

It really is very simple (if it were applied properly). You get 15 points you get promoted. Period. What is the major problem with a system like that? Seems fair.

joker77 · 24-03-2014 4:32pm

Jaysus this is getting very boring. Same arguments as last year

Get over it. Racing is hard. If you're in A3 and whinging about juniors and vets, maybe downgrade yourself to A4. Oh wait, the racing in A4 wouldn't be hard enough and then the whinging would be about bunch sprints every weekend.

joker77 · 24-03-2014 4:36pm

pvcycling.wordpress.com/2014/03/21/ill-have-another-bag-of-sand-please-with-an-extra-dollop-of-cream-on-top/

Let the wailing begin

The cuddly puppies were outraged. They’d trained hard. They’d committed millions of dollars to this fine sport. They’d hired a coach, given up smoking meth, and told all their friends at work that they were going to do a “bicycle race.” How unfair that a pro, a superstar, a hard woman, a ruthless, toothy, shark-blooded killer with a zillion miles under her belt would sandbag the Cuddly Puppy division? At the Scratchypits race, no less! The outrage!

A measure of just how much of a beginners race it was bubbled to the surface merely by airing the “Sandbagger!” complaint. If USA Cycling were a book with a subtitle, it would be this: “USA Cycling: Sandbagging for Fun and Trinkets.”

The whole purpose of categories is to allow for organized sandbagging. If bikers wanted a real bike race, here’s how it would be run:

Men, women, mutants, cuddly puppies, ex pros, current pros, leaky prostates, loose bowels, juniors, seniors, and almost-corpses would line up together.
The ref would blow a whistle.
The first person across the line would be declared the winner.
This would result in a genuine bike race with genuine results. The winner could say, “I was the best racer that day.” The down side is that races would have only thirty or forty riders, all of them would be in their late 20′s, and the same three people would win every single race. In other words, hardly anyone would get a trinket. The bigger down side is that USA Cycling and the various race promoters wouldn’t be able to promote races, because with entry fees from thirty riders you can’t cordon off a street, supply ambulances, promote the event, and hire a couple of cheap plywood boxes for a podium.

Harrybelafonte · 24-03-2014 4:51pm

Actually all (almost all) the A4 races this year have been won by break always? In Leinster anyway.

Also can we lay off the whole "real men win their way to upgrading" bull****. You wanna win your way there all well and good but I'll be ticking a box rather than spending a couple of years in the same category.

Pawlie · 24-03-2014 4:53pm

A3 racing will become so negative if they where no juniors racing,why because it is them along with a very few other A3 lads that ride the front and are always trying to tear one another apart especially in Munster races,you have Fintan Ryan,Eddie Dunbarr,Dylan O Brien,Stephan Shanahan, etc all top lads that would be able to ride with the 1s & 2s and if you cannot ride the front with them and tango with them yea prop will not survive up another grade,do people think that it is easier up there and that the attacking is alot less and not as persistent,just read what Paudi and Robin said about Ras Luimni couple weeks back,they kill one another,its kill or be killed with the 1's and again if lads cant earn the points in A3 they'll get some fright up with the top tier.

fortis · 24-03-2014 5:11pm

joker77 wrote: »

pvcycling.wordpress.com/2014/03/21/ill-have-another-bag-of-sand-please-with-an-extra-dollop-of-cream-on-top/

Good Article! Very Entertaining!

But surely the biggest offenders for obtaining "trinkets" is the ex-pro, national whats it, super blah blah blah, who races against a field of eejits who he/she is clearly far superior to just to obtain yet another bauble and put the hands in the air!

And someone makes the point futher down (in that article):

"A cat 3 with 40 points is really by definition no longer a cat 3, so then it’s not even sandbagging, it’s really cheating. Let’s call it “point doping.”

!!! A new type of doping

Would agree also that A2/1 is no joke. I guess people would like to be able to find that out for themselves though without ticking a box. And wanting to "earn" it is surely a commendable quality is a sportsperson/person amateur or else.

But anyways, going round in circles...!

Inquitus · 24-03-2014 5:14pm

nvm

fortis · 24-03-2014 5:17pm

Inquitus wrote: »

nvm

That's only for 50+ (it says in article he is 47)

Anyways pretty arbitrary rules arbitrarily enforced...

Morrisseeee · 24-03-2014 5:29pm

A solution for me would be that in big races like yesterday that you would have a seperate A2/Junior(with x amount of pts) race, and maybe also allow A3s with 10+ points the option of entering. The race would be A3 distance and hence not burning out the Juniors.
The rest of the year, at smaller events, and smaller distances these A2s/Jun's would race with the A1s.

There is obviously a problem and a solution needs to be found, but I'm also thinking that the current crop of Juniors are exasperating the issue, perhaps when they move on, the issue will even out !

Max_Charger · 24-03-2014 5:30pm

fortis wrote: »

But surely the biggest offenders for obtaining "trinkets" is the ex-pro, national whats it, super blah blah blah, who races against a field of eejits who he/she is clearly far superior to just to obtain yet another bauble and put the hands in the air!

Not quite sure what you mean by that. Are you saying the ex-pro and national super "blahdey blahs" shouldn't be there in the first place?

XtotheZ · 24-03-2014 5:42pm

smurphy29 wrote: »

Out of interest, does anyone know how these things work in other countries, say UK, where cycling is taking off in a similar way to over here.

I presume in Belgium and France and the like they have the numbers for the juniors to have their own category?

In belgium Juniors have there own catagory as far as I know and are only allowed to race 4 times a week, and arnt aloud to race the day before a stage race or for a week after it.

I was under the impression this year they were going to do seperate points for a3 and Juniors in races? in ireland

fortis · 24-03-2014 5:46pm

Max_Charger wrote: »

Not quite sure what you mean by that. Are you saying the ex-pro and national super "blahdey blahs" shouldn't be there in the first place?

Not at all! The more people cycling and racing the better!

I think I've been pretty clear in what I have said. Upon obtaining 15 points someone is upgraded to the next cat. No exceptions.

This didn't happen with Martin O Loughlin (though perhaps that was an admin error due to the closeness of the races)

And the same rule should apply to all. So an ex-pro or whatever will quickly rise up the ranks (again). Or else if they sat on their a** since retirement they won't!

The junior thing is another discussion. But again I would argue a junior with 80-100 whatever points in A3 is just wasting his time there and is capable of mixing it in the next category. But that's another discussion

And this is going around in circles! So that's my last word on it!

J Madone · 24-03-2014 5:48pm

Pawlie wrote: »

A3 racing will become so negative if they where no juniors racing,why because it is them along with a very few other A3 lads that ride the front and are always trying to tear one another apart especially in Munster races,you have Fintan Ryan,Eddie Dunbarr,Dylan O Brien,Stephan Shanahan, etc all top lads that would be able to ride with the 1s & 2s and if you cannot ride the front with them and tango with them yea prop will not survive up another grade,do people think that it is easier up there and that the attacking is alot less and not as persistent,just read what Paudi and Robin said about Ras Luimni couple weeks back,they kill one another,its kill or be killed with the 1's and again if lads cant earn the points in A3 they'll get some fright up with the top tier.

Pawlie
If the juniors are scooping all the points in A3 it is very difficult to promoted, the first six or eight A3s should get the points imo

smurphy29 · 24-03-2014 5:54pm

Pawlie wrote: »

A3 racing will become so negative if they where no juniors racing,why because it is them along with a very few other A3 lads that ride the front and are always trying to tear one another apart especially in Munster races,you have Fintan Ryan,Eddie Dunbarr,Dylan O Brien,Stephan Shanahan, etc all top lads that would be able to ride with the 1s & 2s and if you cannot ride the front with them and tango with them yea prop will not survive up another grade,do people think that it is easier up there and that the attacking is alot less and not as persistent,just read what Paudi and Robin said about Ras Luimni couple weeks back,they kill one another,its kill or be killed with the 1's and again if lads cant earn the points in A3 they'll get some fright up with the top tier.

Your point is valid, but a bit of a straw man. I don't think anyone is really saying 'These bloody juniors are too good, but if I could just get the upgrade to A2 I know I could get on Bryan McCrystal's wheel'. The complaints are that A3 racing should be A3 racing and not racing against a field that has a handful of A1s in all but name. That's understandable and legit.

The issue is ultimately one of numbers; if we had enough numbers for a separate junior cat and a standalone A2 cat, we wouldn't have the issue. As it is, we don't, so it's a bit of a fudge; a necessary fudge, but a fudge nonetheless. That's not to say it's not the best available solution at this time, but it's obviously less than perfect.

petethedrummer · 24-03-2014 6:05pm

Once you accumulate enough points to go up a category you should not accumulate any more points in your current category. Those points would get shifted down to the next placed rider. The podium & placings for the day would still stand but the points awarding where possible would be a seperate issue. I would assume that this would only work where there is a finish line camera but I think it should be implemented on those days. If there is no camera you could still shift the points downwards but you may not be able to go passed 6th place. But giving the 6th place guy 2 points instead of 1 if someone ahead is already at the quota would seem like a good idea. The 1 point would just go un-awarded if 7th place could not be identified.

Then you are free to stick in the category if you don't want to move up and you are not inhibiting the next man from moving up on points.

hammerheadjack · 24-03-2014 6:07pm

Junior /A2 over the 115Km distance might have been better for the race yesterday. Three laps of that circuit is too much for any Junior and many A2. Of the huge field of A3 that started, I'd estimate that only 30 actually finished..20% of the field...many of them Juniors. I'd imagine a lot of the A3 would have pulled out after the first lap having nothing to race for.

mark kiernan · 24-03-2014 6:07pm

smurphy29 wrote: »

Your point is valid, but a bit of a straw man. I don't think anyone is really saying 'These bloody juniors are too good, but if I could just get the upgrade to A2 I know I could get on Bryan McCrystal's wheel'. The complaints are that A3 racing should be A3 racing and not racing against a field that has a handful of A1s in all but name. That's understandable and legit.

{The issue is ultimately one of numbers; if we had enough numbers for a separate junior cat and a standalone A2 cat, we wouldn't have the issue. As it is, we don't, so it's a bit of a fudge; a necessary fudge, but a fudge nonetheless. That's not to say it's not the best available solution at this time, but it's obviously less than perfect.

}"" the nail on the head""

Pawlie · 24-03-2014 6:09pm

lads its no diff to what was happening last year while racing with the young guns,lads should have upgraded themselves when they had the chance before season started

Peterx · 24-03-2014 6:34pm

petethedrummer wrote: »

Once you accumulate enough points to go up a category you should not accumulate any more points in your current category. Those points would get shifted down to the next placed rider. The podium & placings for the day would still stand but the points awarding where possible would be a seperate issue. I would assume that this would only work where there is a finish line camera but I think it should be implemented on those days. If there is no camera you could still shift the points downwards but you may not be able to go passed 6th place. But giving the 6th place guy 2 points instead of 1 if someone ahead is already at the quota would seem like a good idea. The 1 point would just go un-awarded if 7th place could not be identified.

Then you are free to stick in the category if you don't want to move up and you are not inhibiting the next man from moving up on points.

An easier system just gives separate junior joints to the A3 points.

Your solution requires the organisers to know who has what points, which is a bit much considering they already have 4 or 5 actual race prize winners results to get sorted.

killalanerr · 24-03-2014 6:37pm

Some interesting views,my earlier points seems to be agreed by most that we need to look after our juniors and outside having their own class having them in A3 seems to be working well,i still maintain that when a special rider comes along he/she should be allowed to up a grade.But as a 50+ a3 i am more than happy to ride with them
May be its different outside leinster but all the A3 races i have been in have being quite combative with brakes going away in most i believe that a lot of the A3s i ride with would hold their own as A2s the gap is not the big for thoses that have put in the work,I have probably found my level in A3 but if i was a younger man and finding hard to amass the required points i would have no problem going for the self upgrade so this hang up about getting points has been dealt with by CI,if you think you can hack it just tick the box,keep moving forward

petethedrummer · 24-03-2014 6:47pm

Peterx wrote: »

Your solution requires the organisers to know who has what points,

No, it just requires they record the first 10-12 finishers (or as many as is feasible) and send that to CI. CI then apply the points to those under the quota.

Peterx wrote: »

An easier system just gives separate junior joints to the A3 points.

You could do that but my system accounts for those who don't want to or can't move up for whatever reason and those who do want to on points only.

wav1 · 24-03-2014 7:01pm

Clarity on one issue folks.
Martin O loughlin had 13 points and only 13 points before the Carrick race.
6 pts for 3rd in newbridge and 7 points for 2nd in Blarney all equals 13.He then got 10 pts at the race in Carrick [over 100k] which brought him to the grand total of 23 =upgrade,but he had only 13 prior to the event

ragazzo · 24-03-2014 7:33pm

fortis wrote: »

I wouldn't say rightly so. If they are capable of winning races and getting places week in week out why is that rightly so? Are we discriminating on age now?

The same rules should apply to everyone. Otherwise it's tampering to suit a few.

It really is very simple (if it were applied properly). You get 15 points you get promoted. Period. What is the major problem with a system like that? Seems fair.

Based on the summation of Wav it seems that the points were applied fairly and correctly and there is no evidence of anybody riding A3 instead of A2.

You are the one who seems to be incorrect and yet you are telling all about the simplicity of running a fair system for all abilities and ages.

How did you describe it? Oh yeah, simples!

Morrisseeee · 24-03-2014 8:00pm

Should I mention that the Carrick Race was only 99.4km ?

/hmmmmm.......maybe not :pac:

wav1 · 24-03-2014 8:08pm

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Should I mention that the Carrick Race was only 99.4km ?

/hmmmmm.......maybe not :pac:

doesnt matter 13+8 still =21 which is upgrade anyway.Grading can only work off the published distance as i doubt if CI are going to pay them to go and measure every race.Yesterday was about 114k anyway so way over the 100 so points for first ten

wav1 · 24-03-2014 8:12pm

fortis wrote: »

Race organisers won't even run a separate A2 race usually (which is why it is such a toxic category, they always get landed with the A1's except for the likes of Gorey where A1's are excluded)

There is no need for A3+, if proper promotion is taking place the A2 ranks would be bigger anyway (and A3 smaller and more fairly distributed). And then a separate A2 race could take place (and A1).

Any talented junior would be promoted same as everyone else (albeit perhaps after amassing twice the points at a lower level, hence avoiding "burn out")

Everyone knows this is the way it should be

I dont know thats the way it should be,and nothing you say will convince me either.

buffalo · 24-03-2014 8:21pm

wav1 wrote: »

doesnt matter 13+8 still =21 which is upgrade anyway.Grading can only work off the published distance as i doubt if CI are going to pay them to go and measure every race.Yesterday was about 114k anyway so way over the 100 so points for first ten

In 2012 I successfully appealed the points awarded for a certain Dunsany GP.

Comm on the day wanted to award only first 3, but distance was recorded as 51km+.

I got my points a couple of weeks later, being just outside the top three.

slow · 24-03-2014 8:24pm

There must have been some kickings given out in the Hanlon yesterday given the grumpy comments. As my mother used to say when I threw a bedtime strop: "He's tired".

And tired those juniors are today after 120km yesterday. For Dunbar & O' Brien it's a third big weekend in a row after racing trips to Holland & the UK.

A3 racing is proper racing thanks to the young fellas. If you can't beat them, you shouldn't be A2.

They were back in school today. First and second are Leaving Cert students. If you upgraded them, are you suggesting they'd ride the 160km Hanlon? Training for a 4 hour race is a totally different ball game. It's 6 months to the Road Worlds, not 6 weeks.

MOL tweeted earlier in the year that the CI system would only give him an A4 licence as he had a club competition licence last year. Any 47 year old who comes back and gets upgraded in effectively two weekends - fair play. And as wav1 pointed out, contrary to previous allegations still on this thread, he broke no rule (Mods???)

Des Hanlon Memorial, March 23 2014, Carlow

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