ITC-WIT Southeast University Debacle

artanevilla · 23-10-2014 6:06pm #1

So we've been in the news this week for good and bad reasons.

First the news came out that an agreement had been reached between ITC and WIT to form a University of the South East.

Then came the news that WIT were pulling out of any deal.

Today the Education Minister apparently had a frank discussion with WIT about the whole situation.

http://www.thejournal.ie/it-carlow-waterford-1741496-Oct2014/

The whole situation is a strange one all together.

skooterblue2 · 24-10-2014 2:06pm

I think WIT would be better off pursuing University Status on their own. I have attended Carlow and their Student Welfare and support services is appalling. I also am in contact with Waterford IT and I feel undercurrents of Carlow being viewed as "less than suitable partner".

Meathlass · 24-10-2014 4:08pm

They can't though.

To become a TU they must merge with someone and the govt. has said they aren't creating anymore 'traditional' universities.

PeteFalk78 · 24-10-2014 4:16pm

skooterblue2 wrote: »

I think WIT would be better off pursuing University Status on their own. I have attended Carlow and their Student Welfare and support services is appalling. I also am in contact with Waterford IT and I feel undercurrents of Carlow being viewed as "less than suitable partner".

Luckily decisions are make on more aspects than simply Student Welfare and Support services. Carlow IT is widely recognised as the most improved IoT in the sector constantly attracting increasing numbers of students. Whilst WIT numbers have been dropping ..... 300 students alone last year.

ITC also delivers the same service to nearly identical student numbers with a smaller staff base delivering more bang for their buck.

It should be noted that funding for WIT is through the roof in comparison to ITC mostly helped by their higher number of TDs around there.

You should read an article in the Munster Express this week. About the abysmal mess of the IT Systems in WIT? Ongoing issues with internet connectivity, email and VLE all leading to monikers such as "Faulty Towers" and "Waterford Institute of Non-Technology"

There ya go.

skooterblue2 · 24-10-2014 4:24pm

I am not going to make a political statement but governments should be changed often. I saw the Mechanical Engineering projects at Cork IT and Carlow IT.... they just couldn't be compared. a Two Tier Model should be the way with the ITs. The Top ones like Dublin Area, Waterford, Cork, Limerick, GMIT and a couple of others (know very little about the ones in the Northern part of the Republic) should be upscaled to University Status. The others should remain as IT.

I am not in favour of any particular political brand but a different Government Minister might say something different.

skooterblue2 · 24-10-2014 4:32pm

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

ITC also delivers the same service to nearly identical student numbers with a smaller staff base delivering more bang for their buck.

It should be noted that funding for WIT is through the roof in comparison to ITC mostly helped by their higher number of TDs around there.

You should read an article in the Munster Express this week. About the abysmal mess of the IT Systems in WIT? Ongoing issues with internet connectivity, email and VLE all leading to monikers such as "Faulty Towers" and "Waterford Institute of Non-Technology"

My Ass the service is the same.... not even remotely close...... They are all about the post grads and nothing about their under graduates.
The quality can be seen at project level.

As for the Munster Express ...... Tabloid style writing .... Things haven't been the same since J.J. Walsh left the building.

PeteFalk78 · 24-10-2014 4:37pm

skooterblue2 wrote: »

My Ass the service is the same.... not even remotely close...... They are all about the post grads and nothing about their under graduates.

Other than student services what other services do Carlow lack in comparison? If you could provide some tangible evidence that could support your argument then I might take you a little seriously. It should also be noted that ITC is currently IoT of the year.

skooterblue2 wrote: »

The quality can be seen at project level.

More information needed.

skooterblue2 wrote: »

As for the Munster Express ...... Tabloid style writing

The facts are there though. WITs Moodle server was offline for 2 weeks recently. Their main online learning facility inaccessible for a fortnight :eek:. So stop painting everything as daisies and roses there that's very very far off the mark.

skooterblue2 · 24-10-2014 4:50pm

The Mechanical engineering project were far apart. There was much more co-operation in Cork IT with manufacturing industry. Bubble extractor from a drip and also slow release medication on a heart Stent from from Boston Scientific? Compared with a chimney flue, and a injection molding for a slug trap from Carlow IT...... that sort of difference. Would you like me to continue? If you had been to a number of difference colleges and examined the quality then I would take your arguement a bit more seriously.

The bigger ITs cost more because the give a better degrees. Bigger IT attract better partnerships with Industry. Carlow is not up to [
playing on. At end of the day isnt who turn it is to win an award...... its what sort of way industry grades your degree..... and Carlow is far from University level. They do have fancy titles on courses ... Like computer gaming and Forensics but they dont deliver jobs like Universities degrees

PeteFalk78 · 24-10-2014 5:01pm

skooterblue2 wrote: »

The Mechanical engineering project were far apart. There was much more co-operation in Cork IT with manufacturing industry. Bubble extractor from a drip and also slow release medication on a heart Stent from from Boston Scientific? Compared with a chimney flue, and a injection molding for a slug trap from Carlow IT...... that sort of difference. Would you like me to continue? If you had been to a number of difference colleges and examined the quality then I would take your arguement a bit more seriously.

The bigger ITs cost more because the give a better degrees. Bigger IT attract better partnerships with Industry. Carlow is not up to [
playing on. At end of the day isnt who turn it is to win an award...... its what sort of way industry grades your degree..... and Carlow is far from University level. They do have fancy titles on courses ... Like computer gaming and Forensics but they dont deliver jobs like Universities degrees

I'll do my best to decipher your post.

So you're basing your analysis on a couple of projects you seen that were somewhat similar in their field and you saying that you have been to a number of colleges and seen the differences? Are you an external examiner?
Excuse all the questions, I'm just trying to figure out if you have the right experience, qualifications etc to come to such conclusions.

Bigger colleges are bigger because they are based in cities. I thought that was blatantly obvious. However given the size of Waterford compared to Carlow you think the gap in student numbers would be bigger. WIT have around 9k and Carlow have 7.5k.

Anyway we can dance around in circles as much as we want. The DOE said any technological university can only achieve that status through a merger
So you don't have to continue on with your excellent analytical breakdown of the Irish 3rd level system

.

skooterblue2 · 24-10-2014 5:15pm

Actually I have two degrees one is Computing and the other in Engineering..... with qualifications in Quality and Plant processing and also pursuing a Masters at UCD. I have also had worked for 5 multinational companies in Ireland in both IT and Pharmaceutical so that is my credentials.

I am well qualified look at a projects and decide what it is worth. The ones from the Carlow IT lacked imagination, this was not the fault of the students but more of the interest Industry took in the college.

I have also found on a few occasions that the college played outside the rules and ran courses without HEA approval, which were later shut down.

comeraghs · 24-10-2014 10:20pm

This is very simple.

WATERFORD IT is almost at the level to meet the criteria set by the government to be upgraded. Carlow is light years away from being ready.

WIT should be judged on its merits and not held back by refusing to be used as a pawn by Howlin & Hogan to deliver parish pumps to their constituencies.

skooterblue2 · 24-10-2014 10:29pm

Waterford was always working towards University status agenda. Carlow are only a johnny come lately crowd. Carlow will never achieve University status on its own and i am fine with this. ITs the same as suggesting Ballydung remedial college is on the same playing field as Harvard. Not even in the same ball park. Carlow are a great little college for what they do. An inexpensive solution for people who didnt make Waterford and didn't get Dublin.

Delusions of grandeur that they will be at the same standard as WIT.

PeteFalk78 · 25-10-2014 8:16am

comeraghs wrote: »

This is very simple.

WATERFORD IT is almost at the level to meet the criteria set by the government to be upgraded. Carlow is light years away from being ready.

Source?

The Minister for Education doesn't agree with you.

http://www.thejournal.ie/it-carlow-waterford-1741496-Oct2014/

PeteFalk78 · 25-10-2014 8:29am

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Actually I have two degrees one is Computing and the other in Engineering..... with qualifications in Quality and Plant processing and also pursuing a Masters at UCD. I have also had worked for 5 multinational companies in Ireland in both IT and Pharmaceutical so that is my credentials.

Great, well done. You don't explain how or at what level you managed to compare these projects. How were you privy to them?. You don't explain if the projects at level 6-10. Were they even in the same field?

skooterblue2 wrote: »

I have also found on a few occasions that the college played outside the rules and ran courses without HEA approval, which were later shut down.

Source?
Lets look at the facts given so far
Carlow : IOT of the Year 2014, Student numbers akin to WIT despite much lower funding, lower staff to student ratio than WIT,increasing student numbers year on year.

Waterford : Well you haven't given any facts so far.

All we are seeing is personal opinions (with shady evidence), hearsay and total diatribe (Ballydung Remedial College, courses ran without HEA approval).

Without some evidence and facts then your posts are nothing more than meaningless keyboard warrior rubbish.

entropi · 25-10-2014 1:56pm

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Waterford was always working towards University status agenda. Carlow are only a johnny come lately crowd. Carlow will never achieve University status on its own and i am fine with this. ITs the same as suggesting Ballydung remedial college is on the same playing field as Harvard. Not even in the same ball park. Carlow are a great little college for what they do. An inexpensive solution for people who didnt make Waterford and didn't get Dublin.

Delusions of grandeur that they will be at the same standard as WIT.

Inexpensive? Only compared to Dublin that is. Most towns around the country will have similar rental rates for students, food is the same price all over. You do seem to love Waterford quite a bit...have you even set foot on the Carlow IT main campus?

This university debacle has been going on a few years now, I heard about it 2 or 3 years ago now and they seemingly haven't made much movement towards finally sorting this out.

p.s. WIT wasn't even on my CAO form. Never wanted it, will never go there. Carlow was my 2nd choice, happy I got that.

artanevilla · 25-10-2014 2:03pm

I'm from Dublin, went to a university in Dublin for 3 years, came down to Carlow and much prefer it down here. (Bar the fact there's no bar on campus)

There's a lot of improvements to be made sure, but it's still a great place to study and if they improvements keep up at the same rate in as it has in the two years I've been here it's well on its way.

Waterford was also never on my radar either, although there's only two places in the country that do my course.

I don't want to bash WIT though as I've never been nor met anyone that went there.

skooterblue2 · 25-10-2014 11:32pm

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

Great, well done. You don't explain how or at what level you managed to compare these projects. How were you privy to them?. You don't explain if the projects at level 6-10. Were they even in the same field?

Source?
Lets look at the facts given so far
Carlow : IOT of the Year 2014, Student numbers akin to WIT despite much lower funding, lower staff to student ratio than WIT,increasing student numbers year on year.

Waterford : Well you haven't given any facts so far.

All we are seeing is personal opinions (with shady evidence), hearsay and total diatribe (Ballydung Remedial College, courses ran without HEA approval).

Without some evidence and facts then your posts are nothing more than meaningless keyboard warrior rubbish.

Oh where to begin ? Both Courses were level 8 Mechanical engineering Degrees one was in CIT .... fair comparison. I actually took the time to read each project in Carlow as I had a day to spare, while waiting to talk to a HOD. I was appalled at the lack of imagination. Mechanical Engineering is Mechanical engineering, Level 8 honours or maybe not as it seems.

6 Courses were run in 1996-1999 in out reach centers in Kilkenny in Seville Lodge and Wexford. They did not have HEA approval. They ran OIS, computer programming and Business studies. Chris Fingleton who was supervising the outreach centers Admitted after me questioning him he didnt know what the outcome would be. If that is not playing hard and fast with someone elses education I dont know what is? Running a course with out certification.
How was I privy to this? I was the only student rep on campus who was actively dealing with student issues. Students Union in Carlow never even acknowledged us.

IOT of the year? that is the same as being popular on facebook.... Where were you Peter when all this was going on?

PeteFalk78 · 26-10-2014 9:26am

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Oh where to begin ? Both Courses were level 8 Mechanical engineering Degrees one was in CIT .... fair comparison. I actually took the time to read each project in Carlow as I had a day to spare, while waiting to talk to a HOD. I was appalled at the lack of imagination. Mechanical Engineering is Mechanical engineering, Level 8 honours or maybe not as it seems.

6 Courses were run in 1996-1999 in out reach centers in Kilkenny in Seville Lodge and Wexford. They did not have HEA approval. They ran OIS, computer programming and Business studies. Chris Fingleton who was supervising the outreach centers Admitted after me questioning him he didnt know what the outcome would be. If that is not playing hard and fast with someone elses education I dont know what is? Running a course with out certification.
How was I privy to this? I was the only student rep on campus who was actively dealing with student issues. Students Union in Carlow never even acknowledged us.

IOT of the year? that is the same as being popular on facebook.... Where were you Peter when all this was going on?

And the meaningless opinion based rubbish comes forth once again. Predictably followed by unsubstantiated claims without the hint of a source.
You are totally wasting my time, Skooter.

skooterblue2 · 26-10-2014 7:34pm

Once again.... I think a Degree in Mechanical Engineering (level 8) gives me a right to an opinion.
That was public Knowledge that Carlow RTC ran two out reach centers one in Wexford and another in Seville Lodge in Kilkenny city. The Kilkenny one was closed down. You will probably find my letter to the Editor of the Kilkenny people around that time May 1997 and with the headlines that Seville lodge was in danger of closing, nice how someone in the paper took an interest in that story the same week.

Cant you check who is current head of the business Dept. and his previous Appointments? During my time I also lobbied TD's for the Grant which was paid to Carlow but not paid by Carlow RTC to the student due to disagreement with the Government. I see very little that has changed in 20 years as I was visiting again three years ago. Are you aware the disability officer is not even an Occupational Therapist.

Peter .... what is your general problem? Do you find it so hard to believe that there were no courses ran outside the Kilkenny Road Campus? Do you believe Carlow is the best little town in Ireland with the Best IT in Ireland. The College went ahead with the course and hoped to get HEA Approval afterwards.

Still didnt answer my question what were you doing when this was going on?

Meathlass · 26-10-2014 7:50pm

The courses that were ran without approval (according to you, I can't comment on them) happened 15 years ago.

In the last 4 years WIT have had serious problems with financial mismanagement.

We could all throw stones but I don't think it's helping anyone.

skooterblue2 · 26-10-2014 8:06pm

I would rather see Carlow remain as an IT and have the more developed IT's up graded to full university status based on resources and achievement.

entropi · 26-10-2014 8:08pm

Meathlass wrote: »

The courses that were ran without approval (according to you, I can't comment on them) happened 15 years ago.

In the last 4 years WIT have had serious problems with financial mismanagement.

We could all throw stones but I don't think it's helping anyone.

Agreed. I'm prepared to allow this to continue, only if it stays along debate lines.There is potential for a decent conversation but any further direction towards an argument and I'm locking this one up.

PeteFalk78 · 27-10-2014 10:12am

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Once again.... I think a Degree in Mechanical Engineering (level 8) gives me a right to an opinion.

Of course it entitles you to an opinion. Doesn't make it right though.

skooterblue2 wrote: »

That was public Knowledge that Carlow RTC ran two out reach centers one in Wexford and another in Seville Lodge in Kilkenny city. The Kilkenny one was closed down. You will probably find my letter to the Editor of the Kilkenny people around that time May 1997 and with the headlines that Seville lodge was in danger of closing, nice how someone in the paper took an interest in that story the same week.

Perhaps you are right. But the onus is on you to "find the letter to the editor" as you are the one making the claim. I'm going around in circles here.

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Cant you check who is current head of the business Dept. and his previous Appointments? During my time I also lobbied TD's for the Grant which was paid to Carlow but not paid by Carlow RTC to the student due to disagreement with the Government. I see very little that has changed in 20 years as I was visiting again three years ago. Are you aware the disability officer is not even an Occupational Therapist.

Again all above without any proof.

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Peter .... what is your general problem? Do you find it so hard to believe that there were no courses ran outside the Kilkenny Road Campus?

Of course I know courses are run (and still are) run all over Leinster under the I.T. Carlow name.
I've no problem when people put forth hard facts to back their argument.

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Do you believe Carlow is the best little town in Ireland with the Best IT in Ireland.

The town is not the best and it's not the worst. It's hard to quantify such a statement. Regarding the IT, considering the size of the town it is in, ITC certainly punches well above its weight, proven by increasing students numbers whilst maintaining a very low staff to student ratio.

skooterblue2 wrote: »

The College went ahead with the course and hoped to get HEA Approval afterwards.

Proof?

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Still didnt answer my question what were you doing when this was going on?

I studied on the Kilkenny Road campus from 1995-1999 to an Level 8. Subsequently finishing a Level 9 in Trinity a few years later. My time in Carlow was great, lecturers, atmosphere and facilities. I recently attended a conference down there and the facilities for students look second to none. The new student services building looks excellent and a huge new research building too.

Perhaps you are right regarding the courses ran without HEA approval? If so, I have never heard about it. Perhaps it is a common practice at 3rd level?

As mentioned by a previous poster you are totally ignoring the terrible misuse of public finances in WIT over the past 10 years
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/education/wit-thanks-ex-president-after-he-declines-offer-of-alternative-post-162177.html

Previously-released figures also showed that almost €21,000 was spent on security, furniture and fittings in the president’s office, part of a €21m building opened just three years ago and which was already fitted out at a cost of €50,000. Other expenses included more than €500,000 on publicity, including payments to public relations firms and professional photographers. The figures also include almost €250,000 in travel expenses for governing body members. The boardroom in the tourism and leisure building, which also accommodates the president’s office, cost €86,750 to fit out.

Dunmoreroader · 27-10-2014 12:49pm

Came on to Carlow boards to see what's being said here about this mess; doesn't bode well when you don't even know which region we're all in; ITC-WIT SouthWEST University debacle??

artanevilla · 27-10-2014 1:26pm

Dunmoreroader wrote: »

Came on to Carlow boards to see what's being said here about this mess; doesn't bode well when you don't even know which region we're all in; ITC-WIT SouthWEST University debacle??

Oops...

entropi · 27-10-2014 4:36pm

Dunmoreroader wrote: »

Came on to Carlow boards to see what's being said here about this mess; doesn't bode well when you don't even know which region we're all in; ITC-WIT SouthWEST University debacle??

Only copped that just now, ha! Title amended

oscillating wildely · 29-10-2014 10:29am

I would personally agree that WIT is closer to university status than Carlow. In recent times the emphasis in Carlow has been on attracting money from the likes of the GAA and FAI and in my opinion a university is a place of academic learning not a place that consists of protein shakes.

There is also a lack of direction in terms of their business offerings - I do some lecturing there - and a real disconnect with the local business environment to create courses that are actually tailored to suit the needs of the SME sector in the South-East and beyond. This is on contrast to Waterford who have actively embraced local and multi-nationals to design their syllabus so that it is relevant to today's environment. However, on the flip-side Carlow is probably the best environment for evening and part-time education and has the largest part-time student population of all ITs.

In recent times investment has been geared towards Waterford due to the number of high profile company closures allied with the fact that for a time there were sitting TDS; there was no Springboard funding for Carlow in 2012 it was all allocated to Waterford due to lay-offs in Talk Talk & Waterford Crystal.

I don't really know what is happening behind the scenes but the Minister for Education seems to have realised that there will be no University in the South-East if Carlow is eliminated and hence everything is now apparently back on track with meetings having been held over the last few days; her confidence in Carlow's ability being underlined by the fact she will be at the conferring ceremony next Thursday evening.

imacman · 31-10-2014 2:08pm

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

Lets look at the facts given so far
Carlow : IOT of the Year 2014, Student numbers akin to WIT despite much lower funding, lower staff to student ratio than WIT,increasing student numbers year on year.

.

Ok lets talk facts
The independent John Taylor report stated that the research level in Carlow are light years behind Waterford and would push back the application up to 5 years or longer. This debate isn't about student numbers its about R&D in which Carlow IT has the 2nd smallest research contributor after Tralee IT where as WIT is on the same level as many of the university's.
FACT 1- Carlow are years behind in reaching the levels of research activity to reach the TU criteria
FACT 2- Carlow have nowhere near enough PHD and masters level lecturers to proceed according to the TU criteria.(as stated in independent report )

So no amount of money or Political pressure will speed that up, it would be up to IT Carlow staff and as anyone knows who have studied at post-grad level it will take lots of time.

PS Institute to technology of the year is an award with no critical merit handed out by the Sunday times each year , if you look back at the previous winners , you have WIT,CIT, AIT,GMIT, DIT, etc and strangely nobody has won it twice , Carlows turn just came around

oscillating wildely · 31-10-2014 2:22pm

I think you need to re-evaluate your position.

John Taylor has said that there are errors in the document he produced and that he needs to edit it.

There has been political pressure brought to bear upon WIT and and they have been told to forget about going it alone.

I don't disagree with you regarding the R&D being done and I also agree with you that some lecturers in Carlow leave a lot to be desired but the simple matter is that it's either a joint proposal or none.

PeteFalk78 · 31-10-2014 2:39pm

oscillating wildely wrote: »

......the simple matter is that it's either a joint proposal or none.

And that is the only FACT that matters.

imacman · 31-10-2014 3:22pm

oscillating wildely wrote: »

I think you need to re-evaluate your position.

John Taylor has said that there are errors in the document he produced and that he needs to edit it.

The whole John taylor situation is completely political, he is brought in to do an independent report , the politicians and College presidents didn't like what he came up with and he was nobbled, but that doesn't mean what he said isn't true.

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

And that is the only FACT that matters.

That may be the facts now but thats not to say that things wont change if political pressure is bought to bear

Already the TUI has made its position clear with the TIU in WIT and ITcarlow releasing a joint statement in which they stated

" we remain deeply skeptical about the requirement that institutes of technology must merge before they can apply for technological university status. We believe that this requirement to merge is more related to rationalization of the institutes within the sector than to academic considerations based on institute missions, values and ethos”.

The fact is that the whole merger idea is completely politically driven and doesn't have any academic merit
see former DCU president Ferdinand von Prondzynski really impartial view of the whole process in his blog university diary

With an election coming up this whole merge option isn't set in stone and with the staff in DIT also reveling concerns with their merged TU process the future is very unclear.

ITC-WIT Southeast University Debacle

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