RTE Staff training on pronounciation

bobbyss · 17-02-2014 12:24am #1

What training do RTE give its staff regarding pronounciation?

The debt has occurred of Shirley Temple.
Ireland's owes tirty tree million euros.
Dis is not good enough.

soc160 · 17-02-2014 12:26am

None probably, most people don't care that much, people have different accents and pronunciations.

Arbiter of Good Taste · 17-02-2014 12:27am

The inability of many RTE presenters to pronounce the "Th" sound drive me crazy. There are plenty of people in the country who can speak properly, what can't RTE employ some of them?

catallus · 17-02-2014 12:29am

Enunciate, peepil!

bobbyss · 17-02-2014 12:31am

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

The inability of many RTE presenters to pronounce the "Th" sound drive me crazy. There are plenty of people in the country who can speak properly, what can't RTE employ some of them?

It makes my blood boil.

I forgot: 'He scored a great pint wit de hurley'

Qualitymark · 17-02-2014 12:31am

What makes me laugh is when some English person comes on and mispronounces an Irish place name (eg 'Louth', which they pronounce in a way that's correct for the English town but incorrect for the Irish county), and then everyone in Ireland obediently starts mispronouncing it the same way. Hilarious!

Annasopra · 17-02-2014 12:32am

The Doon Leera and Port Leesha annoy me

Absoluvely · 17-02-2014 12:33am

I hope you don't say "pronounciation" the way you spell it.

SeantheMan · 17-02-2014 12:34am

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

The inability of many RTE presenters to pronounce the "Th" sound drives me crazy. There are plenty of people in the country who can speak properly, what can't RTE employ some of them?

*WHY

People in glass houses

Frank Lee Midere · 17-02-2014 12:36am

Nobody in this country - outside the North - prounounces the th. Not even Dublin 4.

bobbyss · 17-02-2014 12:45am

Absoluvely wrote: »

I hope you don't say "pronounciation" the way you spell it.

I stand corrected.

On a slightly different topic. This notion of 'uptalk' (as I think it is called). This is the habit of some people, maybe a lot of people, who give a rising intonation to the ending of a sentence. Typically American and perhaps originating in Australia I have always assumed it was a young person's thing. A teenage thing.

My oh my how endemic it is. Even Miriam O'Callaghan indulges. Why do some people revert to this. She is not an impressionable young thing.

Worst of both worlds is someone with a 'th' issue using uptalk.

Frank Lee Midere · 17-02-2014 12:45am

But enunciation is crap here. Ireland used to teach it in schools but probably that became too PC. Looking back at old RTE footage they did enunciate very carefully in the early days.

SpaceTime · 17-02-2014 12:46am

The training that they seem to get is all about irrelevancies:

Pronouncing the "R" of RTE strangely "Arrrrr! TE"

Ensuring they pronounce Portlaoise and Dún Laoghaire in a way nobody from either of those places pronounces them.

Calling a "kilometer" a ki·lo·me·ter instead of a 'kilom·iter'

Not recognising Dingle.

Making sure to take the G out of Aer Lingus (technically correct, but nobody says it, including the company itself)

Mispronouncing Westminster as "West Minister" - the whole thing is normally run together.

Sports people talking about "DeRby" instead of "Darby"

Chicago becoming "ChicaRgo" whatever that's all about!

That kind of thing.

diomed · 17-02-2014 12:47am

Portlaoisa

17-02-2014 12:47am

I was once told that RTE used to have a Speech Standards department, known to staff as "the SS" - where presenters would be called in if they slipped up.

How true or not, I don't know.

RayM · 17-02-2014 12:49am

soc160 wrote: »

None probably, most people don't care that much, people have different accents and pronunciations.

As long as the person speaks clearly, different accents are fine. Different pronunciations aren't. With a public service broadcaster, pronunciation shouldn't be a matter of personal preference. I mean, newspapers don't give journalists the freedom to spell words in whichever way they see fit. They all have their own 'house style'. RTE should have one too.

Frank Lee Midere wrote:

Nobody in this country - outside the North - prounounces the th. Not even Dublin 4.

That's not true at all. Irish people might not pronounce it as strongly as people in certain parts of the UK (where it almost sounds like an 'f'), but a lot of people here pronounce it correctly.

Frank Lee Midere · 17-02-2014 12:50am

Karsini wrote: »

I was once told that RTE used to have a Speech Standards department, known to staff as "the SS" - where presenters would be called in if they slipped up.

How true or not, I don't know.

I bet they did. Look at footage pre 1970 and the speech is very careful. Still an Irish accent but careful, slow and enunciated. I'd bring that back for anybody who has to make announcements including iarnrod Eireann.

SpaceTime · 17-02-2014 12:52am

RayM wrote: »

As long as the person speaks clearly, different accents are fine. Different pronunciations aren't. With a public service broadcaster, pronunciation shouldn't be a matter of personal preference. I mean, newspapers don't give journalists the freedom to spell words in whichever way they see fit. They all have their own 'house style'. RTE should have one too.

That's not true at all. Irish people might not pronounce it as strongly as people in certain parts of the UK (where it almost sounds like an 'f'), but a lot of people here pronounce it correctly.

I think as long as it's clear, when it comes to speech it's not like spelling. Accents vary a lot.

Where something's a total mispronunciation it shouldn't be let slip though.

"Comm-iT-TEEEEEEE" being one.

and "Sah-ur-day"

Stilted RP-style presentation is gone out with the dinosaurs though.

There are also a large number of Irish newscasters who can't pronounce NEWS!

It's not Nooze!

bobbyss · 17-02-2014 12:54am

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

But enunciation is crap here. Ireland used to teach it in schools but probably that became too PC. Looking back at old RTE footage they did enunciate very carefully in the early days.

Yes. How clearly does the great Michael Murphy read the news on RTE. He is only on at the weekend but how professional he is. There are some 'newscasters' who you would think were dragged in from the street five minutes ago to read the news without any idea of what it means to pronoune words properly.

When you listen to BBC Radio 4 or the World Service , the chasm in class and clarity is very deep.

Frank Lee Midere · 17-02-2014 1:00am

RayM wrote: »

As long as the person speaks clearly, different accents are fine. Different pronunciations aren't. With a public service broadcaster, pronunciation shouldn't be a matter of personal preference. I mean, newspapers don't give journalists the freedom to spell words in whichever way they see fit. They all have their own 'house style'. RTE should have one too.

That's not true at all. Irish people might not pronounce it as strongly as people in certain parts of the UK (where it almost sounds like an 'f'), but a lot of people here pronounce it correctly.

I've lived in England, was schooled here and there and I can tell you that vast majority of people I meet here, from whatever social class, except northerners don't pronounce it. The th in Bath is prounced so it's not like it's an impossibility of the tongue ( like how the Chinese can't really pronounce an l). It's learned. Sometimes there is a vague glottal stop , I t'ink but mostly it's I tink.

The other form is a D, which seems to English ears to be used by most Americans too: Derefore I tink.

The working class East Coast of America and some American black accents do that too, dey be hatin I be rollin, but not the th to t. Which sounds worse. I tink.

bobbyss · 17-02-2014 1:05am

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

I've lived in England, was schooled here and there and I can tell you that vast majority of people I meet here, from whatever social class, except northerners don't pronounce it. The th in Bath is prounced so it's not like it's an impossibility of the tongue ( like how the Chinese can't really pronounce an l). It's learned. Sometimes there is a vague glottal stop , I t'ink but mostly it's I tink.

The other form is a D, which seems to English ears to be used by most Americans too: Derefore I tink.

The working class East Coast of America and some American black accents do that too, dey be hatin I be rollin, but not the th to t. Which sounds worse. I tink.

What is the situation with Jonathon Ross (and I think Jools Holland and some others that I can't think of at the moment) with Rs? I never see that in Irish people.

P. Breathnach · 17-02-2014 1:16am

Ross has a speech impediment. I have heard Irish people with a similar impediment.

Absoluvely · 17-02-2014 1:32am

RTÉ should actually be pronounced like R-T-A because that's how to pronounce é.

Or alternatively you could call it R-T-E-fada

StreetLight · 17-02-2014 2:10am

bobbyss wrote: »

Yes. How clearly does the great Michael Murphy read the news on RTE. He is only on at the weekend but how professional he is.

Have a look at RTE News Now when Michael Murphy is reading for a radio show. His gesticulations are sometimes quite pronounced!

Superb newsreader, though.

Qualitymark · 17-02-2014 7:05am

mango salsa wrote: »

The Doon Leera and Port Leesha annoy me

Both are correct. Dún Laoghaire has three optional pronunciations: dunleary, dhoon layra and dhoon leerah. Portlaoise is correctly pronounced with the final 'e' sounded, though it became fashionable to drop the 'e' so it rhymes with Laois in recent years.

Arbiter of Good Taste · 17-02-2014 9:15am

SeantheMan wrote: »

*WHY

People in glass houses

Oh no! I made a typo late at night on an iPad. I must be illiterate!

Qualitymark · 17-02-2014 9:18am

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

Oh no! I made a typo late at night on an iPad. I must be illiterate!

You're an illegible bachelor!

CountyHurler · 17-02-2014 9:23am

They run a fillum course in Stockhollum that Joe Duffy went to..

Slutmonkey57b · 17-02-2014 9:28am

SpaceTime wrote: »

I think as long as it's clear, when it comes to speech it's not like spelling. Accents vary a lot.

Where something's a total mispronunciation it shouldn't be let slip though.

"Comm-iT-TEEEEEEE" being one.

and "Sah-ur-day"

Stilted RP-style presentation is gone out with the dinosaurs though.

There are also a large number of Irish newscasters who can't pronounce NEWS!

It's not Nooze!

"Is gone out"??

I'm far more worried about Irish spelling and grammar than pronunciation, although many of their most heinous affectations result from speech.

willowthewisp · 17-02-2014 9:29am

They should definitely get Matt Cooper in (I know he is not RTE), so he could talk better about Radiahors on Sahurdays.

Qualitymark · 17-02-2014 9:30am

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

"Is gone to"??

I'm far more worried about Irish spelling and grammar than pronunciation, although many of their most heinous affectations result from speech.

Their? You're not Irish?

True, Irish education is now pretty useless in teaching grammar and spelling. Every school should have http://grammar-monster.com on every computer, and no child should leave primary school unable to spell "its".

o1s1n · 17-02-2014 9:31am

Why can't they say 'finance' properly?

(first one to say it's 'fin-ance' gets a box in the ear!)

pauldla · 17-02-2014 9:33am

Don Cockburn was yer only man for the pronunciationing and elocuting.

Gosub · 17-02-2014 9:41am

While some of the pronunciations make me smile, I get really wound up about the "EMMM" "ERRRR" and AHH" brigade. Some of the professional speakers can't put a sentence together without at least three of them in there. "Now ah over em to ah Mike eeeh in em Cork ah with the em flood report."

I can understand ordinary people being interviewed doing it but these people are paid huge salaries to present programmes professionally!

Bard · 17-02-2014 10:00am

StreetLight wrote: »

Have a look at RTE News Now when Michael Murphy is reading for a radio show. His gesticulations are sometimes quite pronounced!

Superb newsreader, though.

Pretty common practise, that... Many newsreaders - myself included - move their arms around a lot while reading. It can ... help.

Qualitymark · 17-02-2014 10:07am

o1s1n wrote: »

Why can't they say 'finance' properly?

(first one to say it's 'fin-ance' gets a box in the ear!)

FIEnance and fihNANCE are optional pronunciations. I grew up with fihNANCE and am sticking with it. I'm so sorry if this offends you.

A Primal Nut · 17-02-2014 10:11am

bobbyss wrote: »

What training do RTE give its staff regarding pronounciation?

The debt has occurred of Shirley Temple.
Ireland's owes tirty tree million euros.
Dis is not good enough.

I'd hate for public license payer's money to be spent on irrelevant sh*te like this.

People have different accents in this country. Embrace it instead of moaning for the sake of moaning. It would be boring if we all spoke the same.

Qualitymark · 17-02-2014 10:15am

A Primal Nut wrote: »

I'd hate for public license payer's money to be spent on irrelevant sh*te like this.

People have different accents in this country. Embrace it instead of moaning for the sake of moaning. It would be boring if we all spoke the same.

But Nut, it's not a question of accents. I *love* accents, and get great pleasure out of the accents of my friends from Galway, Finglas, Dalkey, Crumlin, Kerry, Derry and Mayo. But they all pronounce words correctly, and don't say renumerate when they mean remunerate, and nucular when they mean nuclear, and nuptual when they mean nuptial. There's a difference between speaking with a pleasant local accent and mispronouncing.

(I'd have to say that I don't particularly mind the dis-dat-dese-dose pronunciation; I'd see that as an accent rather than a mispronunciation.)

17-02-2014 10:17am

Are T E

Qualitymark · 17-02-2014 10:21am

6781 wrote: »

Are T E

Correct. Ore T E incorrect.

Or if you want to be super-Gaelach, err tay ae!

CountyHurler · 17-02-2014 10:38am

6781 wrote: »

Are T E

Jacqui Hurley says that the whole time. She sounds like a pirate.

"Welcome to Arrrrrrr TE Sport, (me hearties)"

P. Breathnach · 17-02-2014 11:05am

In England there is a degree of consensus on what constitutes best pronunciation, and that is often referred to as "Received Pronunciation" or "RP". It's a language of the educated middle class, and does not have strong regional markers.

We don't speak of Irish RP, but there is one. It has a good deal in common with English RP, but is not identical. For a start, it is generically Irish, albeit not easily tagged as associated with any region within Ireland. To my mind, the use of Irish RP should be preferred in professional broadcasters on a national station, especially in those areas where authority is involved. That applies particularly in newscasting (and while we are at it, it should also be a requirement that the newsroom be staffed with journalists who know the basics of grammar).

I could make a list of broadcasters whose accent is Irish RP, or fairly close to it.

[Our pronunciation of D and T sounds is somewhat influenced by the Irish language. It's tricky to trace through, and not entirely consistent because there are probably other factors at play.]

Imhof Tank · 17-02-2014 11:06am

Don't know if its overcompensation for the th issues, but the letter T itself seems to be phasing out, as in "traffic is heavy in the Cidy this morning" or "join us at eight twenny this morning........." Have heard this described as the Disney effect??

My pet hate is the random jumbling of vowels among some - a is now o (car/ cor), I is now o (million/ mollion), o is e (oven/evan) and u is e (mustard/ mestard). E has been left alone.

Qualitymark · 17-02-2014 11:25am

P. Breathnach wrote: »

In England there is a degree of consensus on what constitutes best pronunciation, and that is often referred to as "Received Pronunciation" or "RP". It's a language of the educated middle class, and does not have strong regional markers.

We don't speak of Irish RP, but there is one. It has a good deal in common with English RP, but is not identical. For a start, it is generically Irish, albeit not easily tagged as associated with any region within Ireland. To my mind, the use of Irish RP should be preferred in professional broadcasters on a national station, especially in those areas where authority is involved. That applies particularly in newscasting (and while we are at it, it should also be a requirement that the newsroom be staffed with journalists who know the basics of grammar).

I could make a list of broadcasters whose accent is Irish RP, or fairly close to it.

[Our pronunciation of D and T sounds is somewhat influenced by the Irish language. It's tricky to trace through, and not entirely consistent because there are probably other factors at play.]

Yup. RP replaced regional accents in England (/Britain) in the 18th century when the sons of the landed class were typically sent to schools around Oxford; they grew up with that regional accent instead of their own. You can kind of see it in Tom Jones, where old Squire Western has a rural accent but the next generation don't have it.

In Ireland, the equivalent accent comes originally from a series of 19th- and 20th-century boarding schools, and became normalised when all the kids started going to university. A pity; I love a strong west Cork or Leitrim or Cyavan accent. Though it's how I speak myself; have been much mocked for my 'classy' accent.

bureau2009 · 17-02-2014 12:34pm

There are no speech standards in RTE and it shows.

I don't mind a person's accent. However, I want people to speak clearly so that I can hear what they're saying!

I consider Miriam O'Callaghan a poor speaker - and interviewer. Ryan Tubridy is no great shakes either.

If you want to hear wonderfully crisp clear and easy to listen to speech listen to Gay Byrne on Lyric FM on Sunday afternoons.

He's in a class of his own - and there's nobody coming after him. Every word is so clearly and beautifully spoken it's a pleasure to listen to.

As this is a Radio forum all you presenters and would be presenters should listen to Uncle Gaybo and hear how REAL radio is put together and presented.

Learn from the master - while he's still around!

bureau2009 · 17-02-2014 12:38pm

2FM news over the weekend - newsreader is talking about the stormy weather here and then goes on to talk about the weather in the UK........."across the pond"

Journalistic standards? No standards more likely :eek:

lufties · 17-02-2014 12:39pm

bobbyss wrote: »

What training do RTE give its staff regarding pronounciation?

The debt has occurred of Shirley Temple.
Ireland's owes tirty tree million euros.
Dis is not good enough.

Bring back Don Cockburn

lufties · 17-02-2014 12:40pm

pauldla wrote: »

Don Cockburn was yer only man for the pronunciationing and elocuting.

As a child I found him scary :eek:

lufties · 17-02-2014 12:43pm

bureau2009 wrote: »

2FM news over the weekend - newsreader is talking about the stormy weather here and then goes on to talk about the weather in the UK........."across the pond"

Journalistic standards? No standards more likely :eek:

Yeah but 2fm is 'hip and trendy'...isn't it ? :rolleyes:

SpaceTime · 17-02-2014 12:47pm

Absoluvely wrote: »

RTÉ should actually be pronounced like R-T-A because that's how to pronounce é.

Or alternatively you could call it R-T-E-fada

Actually, in most languages that use accents on letters, you don't include them in acronyms.
Certainly not normal in French for example.

The logic being that they're there for pronunciation help only.

P. Breathnach · 17-02-2014 12:56pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

Actually, in most languages that use accents on letters, you don't include them in acronyms.
Certainly not normal in French for example.

The logic being that they're there for pronunciation help only.

RTÉ is not an acronym; it's an initialism. An acronym can be spoken as a single word.

It's not usual in French to place accents on capital letters. It is usual in Irish.

RTE Staff training on pronounciation

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