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Flame Supervision Device (FSD) existing cooker

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  • 27-06-2014 4:43pm
    #1
    Patrickof
    Registered Users Posts: 669 ✭✭✭


    Hi,

    Advice pls if anyone knows!

    We've recently moved house, and brought our existing Rangemaster Elan 110cm range (dual fuel) cooker with us (cooker about 7 yrs old)

    We had an RGII plumber around today to reconnect the cooker and he claims that as it hasn't an FSD (Flame Supervision Device) it cannot be connected.

    I've spoke to the manufacturer and such a device, while now standard on new cookers, CANNOT be retro fitted to existing cookers.

    I can understand its illegal to now sell a cooker without such a device, but surely it's not illegal to reconnect an existing cooker?

    Any advice?

    Paddy


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    #2
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Patrickof wrote: »
    Hi,

    Advice pls if anyone knows!

    We've recently moved house, and brought our existing Rangemaster Elan 110cm range (dual fuel) cooker with us (cooker about 7 yrs old)

    We had an RGII plumber around today to reconnect the cooker and he claims that as it hasn't an FSD (Flame Supervision Device) it cannot be connected.

    I've spoke to the manufacturer and such a device, while now standard on new cookers, CANNOT be retro fitted to existing cookers.

    I can understand its illegal to now sell a cooker without such a device, but surely it's not illegal to reconnect an existing cooker?

    Any advice?

    Paddy

    Safety, safety, safety

    I wouldn't connect your range either as unfortunately it's inherently dangerious and I wouldn't have it in my home(which is my benchmark).

    As you moved home I would class it as a new installation which would require the appliance to meet today's gas regulation standards

    When a RGI connects a appliance they are responsible for anything that happens so if there was a explosion a few years down the road they are still liable hence the reluctance and gas fitters aren't known for taking risks when life and property are involved.


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    #3
    Patrickof
    Registered Users Posts: 669 ✭✭✭Patrickof


    gary71 wrote: »
    Safety, safety, safety

    I wouldn't connect your range either as unfortunately it's inherently dangerious and I wouldn't have it in my home(which is my benchmark).

    As you moved home I would class it as a new installation which would require the appliance to meet today's gas regulation standards

    When a RGI connects a appliance they are responsible for anything that happens so if there was a explosion a few years down the road they are still liable hence the reluctance and gas fitters aren't know for taking risks when life and property are involved.

    Not the answer I 'd hoped for - how come it was "safe" 7 yrs ago?

    Surely something that important couldn't have been ignored by Irish regulations for so long............


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    #4
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Patrickof wrote: »
    Not the answer I 'd hoped for - how come it was "safe" 7 yrs ago?

    Surely something that important couldn't have been ignored by Irish regulations for so long............

    It was never safe and don't shot the messenger:) Irish gas regs aren't very precise and can leave things open to interpretation, the biggest help for you and your range was regs when they came in weren't retrospect but as you moved the range must now be fitted to the new regs which require a FSD.


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    #5
    scudo2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,008 ✭✭✭scudo2


    Patrickof wrote: »
    Not the answer I 'd hoped for - how come it was "safe" 7 yrs ago?

    Surely something that important couldn't have been ignored by Irish regulations for so long............

    Bit like cars.
    Original no seat belts, then only in the front.
    Now one for everybody.
    Similar story with air bags.
    Safety standards are always getting better. ( for user )

    Not what you want to hear, but well done to your careing responsible gas fitter.


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    #6
    Patrickof
    Registered Users Posts: 669 ✭✭✭Patrickof


    gary71 wrote: »
    It was never safe and don't shot the messenger:) Irish gas regs aren't very precise and can leave things open to interpretation, the biggest help for you and your range was regs when they came in weren't retrospect but as you moved the range must now be fitted to the new regs which require a FSD.

    Cheers, don't worry, not blaming u!

    Turns out we can use it on lpg (which thankfully it's currently set up for as last house was off mains network).


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    #7
    Patrickof
    Registered Users Posts: 669 ✭✭✭Patrickof


    Patrickof wrote: »
    Cheers, don't worry, not blaming u!

    Turns out we can use it on lpg (which thankfully it's currently set up for as last house was off mains network).

    To be honest I'm just surprised there's no retro fit option for a 6/7 yr old cooker.


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    #8
    Dtp1979
    Registered Users Posts: 12,727 ✭✭✭✭Dtp1979


    Patrickof wrote: »
    To be honest I'm just surprised there's no retro fit option for a 6/7 yr old cooker.

    LPG is far more dangerous than Nat gas. If it was set up for mains gas previously then that means Nat gas


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    #9
    Patrickof
    Registered Users Posts: 669 ✭✭✭Patrickof


    Dtp1979 wrote: »
    LPG is far more dangerous than Nat gas. If it was set up for mains gas previously then that means Nat gas

    Not sure what youmean here, the cooker was run off the large red tanks in last house ( not sure what they called, the ones that are 2 x the height of standard calor gas bottle) .

    Are u saying we're stumped even on bottled gas?

    While I accept the safety issue, I'm just stunned that a 3 grand cooker becomes obsolete overnight when a new reg comes into effect.

    I'd guess then that 98% of gas cookers in the country are inherently dangerous and if it was such an issue then shouldn't retro fitting be mandatory? (The car seat belt analogy above did require retro fitting)

    I've no probs paying for the retro fit, but it's simply not available (according to rangemaster UK this afternoon).

    Someone pls say there is a retrofit?


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    #10
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Patrickof wrote: »
    Cheers, don't worry, not blaming u!

    Turns out we can use it on lpg (which thankfully it's currently set up for as last house was off mains network).

    LPG or NAT gas the regulation is the same.


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    #11
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Patrickof wrote: »
    Not sure what youmean here, the cooker was run off the large red tanks in last house ( not sure what they called, the ones that are 2 x the height of standard calor gas bottle) .

    Are u saying we're stumped even on bottled gas?

    While I accept the safety issue, I'm just stunned that a 3 grand cooker becomes obsolete overnight when a new reg comes into effect.

    I'd guess then that 98% of gas cookers in the country are inherently dangerous and if it was such an issue then shouldn't retro fitting be mandatory? (The car seat belt analogy above did require retro fitting)

    I've no probs paying for the retro fit, but it's simply not available (according to rangemaster UK this afternoon).

    Someone pls say there is a retrofit?

    If 98% of gas cookers were the same as yours then they could be left on with a cert identifying the issue as the regs aren't retrospect but if the appliance is moved then it's classed as a new install and the new regs kick in.

    The manufactures are the only ones who could sign of on FSD for their appliance.


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    #12
    scudo2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,008 ✭✭✭scudo2


    gary71 wrote: »
    If 98% of gas cookers were the same as yours then they could be left on with a cert identifying the issue as the regs aren't retrospect but if the appliance is moved then it's classed as a new install and the new regs kick in.

    The manufactures are the only ones who could sign of on FSD for their appliance.

    Basically.
    All new connections (old or new Cooker) whether it be Nat. gas or LPG have to be to current ( today ) standards/ rules.
    Your Cooker could have been used for years at it's old address and gas service engineer would have pointed out it's short comings by today standards.

    Back to a car senario.
    I'd happly go in a car with only seatbelts, but I'd be happier with air bags also.
    I wouldn't get in a car without seat belts.

    Your gas fitter is good. He has a lot of responsibility for what he has to do in his job which is hard for good clients like yourself. But at the end of the day he's responsible for all his work till the day he dies, (legaly its 7 years), but we ( most of us ) don't operate that way.

    Anybody can illegal connect your Cooker.

    BLAME MANUFACTURES as the knew what rules were comings.

    It's not nice to be the bearer of bad


    news, so don't blame the fitter


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    #13
    Patrickof
    Registered Users Posts: 669 ✭✭✭Patrickof


    Whoa, no one is blaming the fitter!

    If the purpose of the new reg is to ensure safer cookers/gas then its a pretty badly thought out new reg.

    Example, someone pulls out cooker to fix/replace broken tiles on wall, calls plumber to put cooker back in, plumber says "no, doesn't meet the regs, can't reconnect it for you".

    Which of the following 2 outcomes are now more than likely going to happen:

    (a) customer says fair enough, runs round to power city and buys a new cooker
    (b) customer says thanks to the plumber, sees him out, and then reconnects it himself (its usually only a bayonet type connector - hardly rocket science)


    Anyway, I'll wait to hear confirmation back from the tech folk at rangemaster on getting the cooker modded to meet the regs.


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    #14
    scudo2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,008 ✭✭✭scudo2


    I know your not blaming fitter.
    So sorry if I came across wrong on that.

    Its when you try to connect appliances in NEW location that the new rules apply.


    I also know plenty of guys who only care about € who would connect it.
    I also know that you understand that.
    Let us know how you get on if you can.
    Thanks
    Scudo


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    #15
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Patrickof wrote: »
    Whoa, no one is blaming the fitter!

    If the purpose of the new reg is to ensure safer cookers/gas then its a pretty badly thought out new reg.

    Example, someone pulls out cooker to fix/replace broken tiles on wall, calls plumber to put cooker back in, plumber says "no, doesn't meet the regs, can't reconnect it for you".

    Which of the following 2 outcomes are now more than likely going to happen:

    (a) customer says fair enough, runs round to power city and buys a new cooker
    (b) customer says thanks to the plumber, sees him out, and then reconnects it himself (its usually only a bayonet type connector - hardly rocket science)


    Anyway, I'll wait to hear confirmation back from the tech folk at rangemaster on getting the cooker modded to meet the regs.

    Natural selection isn't a issue for a gas fitter, safety is, they can do no more than try to protect you and yours with the tools that's been given to him/her.

    If the customer chooses to do other than advised by the RGI then that's on the home owner and the RGI bares no responsibility and nor is responsible for the actions of others.

    Let's not get a way from the fact until you spoke to the RGI you were unaware of a real danger to you and yours and as frustrating as it is you are now safer in your own home which I for one am thankful for.

    As for your frustration with gas regs, welcome to the party:)


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    #16
    DGOBS
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,496 ✭✭✭DGOBS


    Who said it was ok on LPG?

    Without an FSD on LPG (or prepayment meters) appliances, it is actually considered more dangerous, as the operator could run out of gas while using the appliance and connect an new cylinder (or top up the prepayment meter) which would allow unburnt fuel to enter the premise.

    Remember, the guys advising you here are concerned with your safety, not a way of 'getting around' the regulation to reconnect your appliance.

    Current Reg:

    312499.pdf


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    #17
    Patrickof
    Registered Users Posts: 669 ✭✭✭Patrickof


    gary71 wrote: »
    Let's not get a way from the fact until you spoke to the RGI you were unaware of a real danger to you and yours and as frustrating as it is you are now safer in your own home which I for one am thankful for.

    Unfortunately, that is not the case (though I take your point), if I can't connect the rangemaster, then I must retain the existing hob (not yet disconnected), which is a 5 ring gas hob, no name model, and about 5-10 yrs older than my cooker.

    It also has no FSD (which given its age I wouldn't expect).

    So, the regs have failed in their intention.

    Reminds me of a story, not long ago some local council (either in Africa or Australia, can't remember) offered a cash fee to anyone who brought in the skin of a particular type of snake that was causing some hassle for them. They expected this to incentivise folk to kill and thus get rid of the snake problem.
    Unintended Consequence: they now have more snakes than ever, the fee was so good that folk actually started breeding the snakes just so they could "cash their skins in", when the local gov discovered this, they immediately ceased paying for the skins, so the locals promptly released all their snakes.


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    #18
    Patrickof
    Registered Users Posts: 669 ✭✭✭Patrickof


    DGOBS wrote: »
    Who said it was ok on LPG?

    Without an FSD on LPG (or prepayment meters) appliances, it is actually considered more dangerous, as the operator could run out of gas while using the appliance and connect an new cylinder (or top up the prepayment meter) which would allow unburnt fuel to enter the premise.

    Remember, the guys advising you here are concerned with your safety, not a way of 'getting around' the regulation to reconnect your appliance.

    Current Reg:

    312499.pdf


    Not sure, I may have mis-understood a plumber when also discussing the fact that the jets on the burners require to be converted back from LPG to nat gas. I may have taken his admission that that is a trivial matter to be an OK for using the cooker on bottled.

    I think the only real course here is to "give out sh*te" to the manufacturer. 7 yrs is not acceptable for the life of a cooker.

    BTW, can anyone point me to the regs (and who is responsible for them) so I can see how much advance notice the manufacturer would have had of the FSD regs?

    Is the same situation applicable in the UK (as they are a UK based company)?


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    #19
    DGOBS
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,496 ✭✭✭DGOBS


    The requirements for FSDs in appliances are covered by the Gas Appliance Directive (EU policy)
    Irish domestic standard (813)for gas installation required FSDs since Jan 1st 2005, that wouldn't have been an appliance directive for the manufacturer, but an appliance installation requirement.

    I can't see your logic on not having the intended effect, as it has prohibited an installer fitting a sub-standard appliance, and he is also required to issue you a safety notice advising you to also upgrade the fitted hob in the interests of safety.

    To have any appliance in your house that can release in burnt gas without a safety control is madness IMHO.


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    #20
    Patrickof
    Registered Users Posts: 669 ✭✭✭Patrickof


    DGOBS wrote: »
    The requirements for FSDs in appliances are covered by the Gas Appliance Directive (EU policy)
    Irish domestic standard (813)for gas installation required FSDs since Jan 1st 2005, that wouldn't have been an appliance directive for the manufacturer, but an appliance installation requirement.

    I can't see your logic on not having the intended effect, as it has prohibited an installer fitting a sub-standard appliance, and he is also required to issue you a safety notice advising you to also upgrade the fitted hob in the interests of safety.

    To have any appliance in your house that can release in burnt gas without a safety control is madness IMHO.

    I don't think he even looked at the existing cooker, in fairness I didn't ask him too.

    If they really were that dangerous then "issuing a safety notice advising you" is pretty feeble. It should be mandatory.

    Anyway, no point in debating this, I'm aware of the situation and will argue it out with the manufacturer.


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    #21
    Patrickof
    Registered Users Posts: 669 ✭✭✭Patrickof


    "The requirements for FSDs in appliances are covered by the Gas Appliance Directive (EU policy)
    Irish domestic standard (813)for gas installation required FSDs since Jan 1st 2005"

    Hmm, time to go dig out my receipt, might have some comeback if the appliance was bought after this date (which is going to be close, but I think it was late 2006)


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    #22
    Patrickof
    Registered Users Posts: 669 ✭✭✭Patrickof


    Righty oh, found the receipt. Its a bit older than I thought though.

    We bought the cooker in Carlow on 1st September 2004. Would've been then installed on LPG probably that month, then re-installed after some kitchen modifications in about April 2005. It was re-installed by a reg'd plumber, so maybe he wasn't aware of the FSD requirement that had come in on 1st Jan.

    I guess its entirely possible that the cooker had been in the retailers warehouse for a year or more before we bought it.

    What would the rules have been selling a cooker 3 months prior to new regs coming in?


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    #23
    Dtp1979
    Registered Users Posts: 12,727 ✭✭✭✭Dtp1979


    Patrickof wrote: »
    Righty oh, found the receipt. Its a bit older than I thought though.

    We bought the cooker in Carlow on 1st September 2004. Would've been then installed on LPG probably that month, then re-installed after some kitchen modifications in about April 2005. It was re-installed by a reg'd plumber, so maybe he wasn't aware of the FSD requirement that had come in on 1st Jan.

    I guess its entirely possible that the cooker had been in the retailers warehouse for a year or more before we bought it.

    What would the rules have been selling a cooker 3 months prior to new regs coming in?

    It means you ain't gotta leg to stand on basically


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