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Knock Airport Will Have Air/Rail Connections

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  • 21-10-2007 2:49pm
    #1
    Transport21 Fan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 696 ✭✭✭


    That's what I was told by somebody deeply involved in it and they seem very confident about it. Apparently as part of the the development of a new SDZ beside Knock airport, a rail link from the Sligo line (via the Burma Road) is part of the plans. EU funding is being sought and is there for the taking. One of their lads got an EU funding sorted for rail links to regional airports.

    Do not ask me the timeline for this, but it's a very serious plan already being developed. How I know is I am on a group which was trying to get heritage money to restore one of the stations on the line and retain the remaining Victorian features and so on.

    The West of Ireland lobbies are simply awesome, you have to hand it to them. I know there is a lot of whinging and so on, but this is real creative thinking outside the box and it's very clever I think. Create the SDZ, rezone the land for higher density, develop the airport and bring in the rail line.

    I have long been a critic of the Northern WRC and their initial plans for holy water refills at Knock was shocking, but this is a very cute plan B I must say. This might just work. The main gripe for me was their notion of "build it and they will come" which is utter Walty Mittyism, but developing the SDZ does at last make some case for the WRC north of Tuam. WestonTrack were putting the cart before the horse, but the people at Knock Airport are doing it right this time.


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    #2
    shortys94
    Registered Users Posts: 2,401 ✭✭✭shortys94


    Are you sure this wont take as long as the Galway Claremorris line:)


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    #3
    Chris_533976
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    Rail links to airports are vital, fair play to Knock.

    Though from the point of view of the country as a whole, Knock airport being the first railway connected airport is embarassing :D


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    #4
    Transport21 Fan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 696 ✭✭✭Transport21 Fan


    Chris_533976 wrote: »
    Rail links to airports are vital, fair play to Knock.

    Liam Scanlon is a really interesting guy. I had a long chat with him one night and he is not only a very positive and forward looking person, but he is interested in urban design, socially sympathtic architecture and the like. He them went on to give a speech about developing Connacht towns around public transport link, predestrian cores and cycling paths. I never heard any other business leader in the West talk in such urbane and modernist terms. He was a breath of fresh air and lovely bloke as well.

    Chris_533976 wrote: »
    Though from the point of view of the country as a whole, Knock airport being the first railway connected airport is embarassing :D

    That's says more about the visionaries in the Department of Transport than anyone else.


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    #5
    BrianD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    i don't think that the construction of a rail link could ever be justified. Knock is a regional airport and that's it. Would the presence of a rail link bring in extra passengers? Unlikely, given that a rail link would only benefit some of its users in the region. The rest would still use car or bus. Would it bring in potential passengers from further afield? Unlikely again unless there is a substantial increase in the range of flights - given that similar sevices are available from other regional airports - and even still it would hardly justify a 2-3 hour trip from the east or south.

    Kerry Airport has a rail link very close by and it has not been able to capitalise on it. It's there and nobody is coming! Knock take note.


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    #6
    dermo88
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,000 ✭✭✭dermo88


    God help us.

    I travelled to and from Dublin Airport using public transport in October. It cost 6 Euro to get to BusAras using a Bus. Then I had to pay another 2 Euro 10 Cent to get to Tallaght. A total cost of 8 Euro 10 cent. To me thats a complete ripoff, when I convert to other currencies and compare other transport links in Europe and around the world that get people to and from the Airport.

    It seems to me that they are not willing to invest in a rail link knowing full well it keeps the taxi companies in operation. It keeps the car hire companies going, and thats of far more benefit to the exchequer in terms of tax revenue.

    Its all stick, and no carrot.

    I would'nt mind Irelands cost of living if there was a carrot, but all there seems to be is a big stick, whacking the arse out of anyone who wants to get around easily without a car.


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    #7
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    dermo88 wrote: »
    God help us.

    I travelled to and from Dublin Airport using public transport in October. It cost 6 Euro to get to BusAras using a Bus. Then I had to pay another 2 Euro 10 Cent to get to Tallaght. A total cost of 8 Euro 10 cent. To me thats a complete ripoff, when I convert to other currencies and compare other transport links in Europe and around the world that get people to and from the Airport.

    It seems to me that they are not willing to invest in a rail link knowing full well it keeps the taxi companies in operation. It keeps the car hire companies going, and thats of far more benefit to the exchequer in terms of tax revenue.

    Its all stick, and no carrot.

    I would'nt mind Irelands cost of living if there was a carrot, but all there seems to be is a big stick, whacking the arse out of anyone who wants to get around easily without a car.
    Well seeing as an all day pass for ALL public transport in Berlin is €6.10, it is a complete ripoff. It also takes a fraction of the time to make the journey from the airport in and you have multiple ways of completing your journey.


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    #8
    dermo88
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,000 ✭✭✭dermo88


    Lets take a few. Alright, I am going to a suburb, so I have to change.

    Kuala Lumpur.....ERL (Express Rail Link), RM35.00 one way, change at KL Sentral for LRT to suburbs, and with that, most of it is within an hour. Not good, and very expensive by local standards.

    Hong Kong. HK$80.00 one way. Fast and efficient, but then, the chinese could teach us paddies a thing or two. I could get used to a rice diet over spuds with those guys running the show.

    Singapore......cheap as chips in one of the most expensive places in the world. I have a choice of three modes. The taxi from Changi to the city centre costs HALF that of Dublin. The bus costs a THIRD for the Airport to city centre link. The underground, HALF of the Bus and Luas link combined. They obviously have thought of all those immigrant workers coming from Bangladesh and Thailand, and saving their money. They've thought.....well if they can get around for less, live on less, then the basics will cost a lot less. These boyos have it all planned out as far as 2030.

    London.....ripoff, but its London. Definitely a case of stick and more stick when you want to travel, breathe, or live. They have'nt figured a way of taxing cardboard boxes over there yet, but when they do, Brian Cowen will be sure to take a leaf from their book.

    Cologne. German efficiency at its finest. An all day pass, for 4 PEOPLE travelling together, E8.50.

    Birmingham Intl. Good, efficient and frequent. One of the best. A definite incentive for avoiding London.

    Manchester Ringway. As above.....

    Now.....linking Knock. Sounds utterly insane right now, but who knows in 5 or 10 years time.

    Berlin is in a country facing a recession, and its one of the cheaper capital cities in the Eurozone, plus the Germans always had their eye on the 8 ball when it came to keeping costs down. These are the guys who had the Deutschmark and controlled inflation. Of course, come to Ireland, and we have'nt a fricking clue how to do that, and our costs shoot through the roof. As usual, its as if we had the old Punt back. The currency which pretended to be a Deutschmark and behaved like a Peso.

    But thats not totally relevant to transport, but there is a loose correlation. Its called "bums in seats"


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    #9
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Knock Airport rail linked? sheer lunacy promoted by vested interests at OUR expense ultimately.
    How can such a link carrying handfuls of passengers per hour carry enough traffic to cover its running costs, never mind the capital costs....even if ALL the passengers through Knock used the train it wouldnt pay, and you would need at least one train an hour in each direction to make it attractive AT ALL.


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    #10
    Zoney
    Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    dermo88: Re: the big stick -

    Well, despite the inconvenience and the cost of some trips, I would think a lot of people who get by in Ireland without a car save quite a bit of money. No purchase cost, VRT, road tax, insurance, petrol, maintanance and replacements, parking costs.

    I'm not of course arguing that public transport here isn't atrocious, but I'm just saying that however much I may wish to set fire to CIÉ property while waiting over 45 minutes for a bus that's supposed to be every 15 mins, I can to some extent still count the positive things about not running a car. Besides, all the car users are stuck in the very traffic that's snared up the buses. At least I'm not having to drive as my time is wasted.


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    #11
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,736 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    1 day dublin bus ticket (which covers the airlink service) is €6 which seems ok to me - does airlink use the tunnel?

    rail to Knock is mad though - from the sounds of the original post they are proposing a rail link to Sligo. FFS - how many of Knock's (relatively small amount of) passengers come from Sligo. Millions of euro to connect a small regional airport to a town of less than 20000 people.


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    #12
    Transport21 Fan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 696 ✭✭✭Transport21 Fan


    corktina wrote: »
    Knock Airport rail linked? sheer lunacy promoted by vested interests at OUR expense ultimately.
    How can such a link carrying handfuls of passengers per hour carry enough traffic to cover its running costs, never mind the capital costs....even if ALL the passengers through Knock used the train it wouldnt pay, and you would need at least one train an hour in each direction to make it attractive AT ALL.

    They are trying to rezone the land between Charlestown and Knock Airport for an Adamstown style development. If that was to happened they would get the rail passengers if it were a suburban service to Sligo.

    Anyways, won't cost us a penny as the EU are paying for it. So I am not that bothered really if it went ahead.


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    #13
    Zoney
    Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    loyatemu wrote: »
    1 day dublin bus ticket (which covers the airlink service) is €6 which seems ok to me - does airlink use the tunnel?

    rail to Knock is mad though - from the sounds of the original post they are proposing a rail link to Sligo. FFS - how many of Knock's (relatively small amount of) passengers come from Sligo. Millions of euro to connect a small regional airport to a town of less than 20000 people.

    I'm not a fan of Knock; considering I'm from the Midwest I feel that Shannon, being in the location that it is, and being reasonably well developed, should serve the West from Sligo to Kerry - despite the official opinion being that we should have everyone travel the breadth of the country to an already over-crowded and hideously disorganised Dublin airport.

    However, it's silly to consider Knock as only serving a single town. To be honest, I think the only valid argument against Knock is that for the northwest, border, west, midlands; there are already airports at Derry, Belfast, Dublin and Shannon - and the transport infrastructure should be in place to allow people to get to those airports.


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    #14
    Schuhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,835 ✭✭✭Schuhart


    Transport21 Fan wrote: »
    They are trying to rezone the land between Charlestown and Knock Airport for an Adamstown style development.
    There’s a useful little discussion of the Knock SDZ proposal here. Basically, it’s on foot of An Bord Pleanala turning down Knock Airport as a suitable location for a central Government Department to be headquartered as it’s not near any significant town (and is simply a stupid place to put an office).

    I’ve a feeling they’re selling you a pup with all the gas about the SDZ concept having to do with promoting cutting edge urban design. What attracts them to the concept is, pure and simple, being able to avoid appeals to an Bord Pleanala whenever Mayo County Council next decides to amend the law of gravity.

    Bottom line – if there’s one thing Mayo isn’t short of its small towns. They really, really don’t need another one. I don’t doubt the CEO of Knock Airport is a grand guy, but pushing for this does nothing for regional development. It’s just putting a thin rhetorical veneer of sophistication over the usual ‘send a barrel of pork to my parish and feck the expense’.
    Transport21 Fan wrote: »
    Anyways, won't cost us a penny as the EU are paying for it.
    It pains me to say it, but I think you are losing it. I think the worse possible attitude is the idea that EU funds are free money. If we use EU funds on this then we are diverting them from some useful project that might actually do something for the regions. EU funds are not free – if we spend them carelessly, then problems that might have been solved remain unsolved.

    Something either makes sense or it doesn’t. This doesn’t.
    Zoney wrote: »
    despite the official opinion being that we should have everyone travel the breadth of the country to an already over-crowded and hideously disorganised Dublin airport.
    The ‘official opinion’ is that Dublin could be ignored while for decades we put up a pretence that Shannon is ‘Ireland’s Gateway’ rather than ‘Ireland’s Millstone’. You also seem to leave Cork out of your equation – is that accidental?


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    #15
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,736 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Zoney wrote: »
    However, it's silly to consider Knock as only serving a single town.

    I never said it did, but a rail link from Sligo isn't going to be much use to people in Ballina or Castlebar.

    Talk of building an Adamstown-style development there is crazy as well. Adamstown is probably bigger than Sligo (in population terms) - unless they transplant the entire population of Sligo to the new town, who is going to live there? and where are they going to work?


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    #16
    Zoney
    Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    Schuhart wrote: »
    You also seem to leave Cork out of your equation – is that accidental?

    Cork is problematic - it's a poor airport - being closed cause of fog or whatever all the time. It's also on the wrong side of the city for anywhere directly north of Cork (and directly south of Cork being well, the sea). Really, hard to see how Cork can serve anything but Cork city and county, the southeast and southwest. I believe all isn't well with the new terminal either - that operations can't switch entirely to it with the old one closing.

    Shannon's cachement area will be greatly expanded though once the N7 Limerick Southern Ring Road phase II including the tunnel under the River Shannon opens, and the N7 Limerick-Nenagh dual carriageway/motorway and N18 Ennis-Gort/Gort-Athenry and N17 Athenry-Tuam dual carriageways open.


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    #17
    Winters
    Registered Users Posts: 14,761 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    If a rail link to Shannon Airport is not economically viable as announced today, can we safely assume Knock would be a massive mistake?


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    #18
    daveirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,483 ✭✭✭✭daveirl


    This post has been deleted.


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    #19
    Neworder79
    Registered Users Posts: 607 ✭✭✭Neworder79


    I'm not convinced of the viability of a rail link, but I don't see the problem in leveraging the success of the airport to boost the economy of the region which I believe is the aim of the business zone development. It's common the world over for airports to attract industry and develop related services.

    It's a shame that many people remain ignorant of the benefits Ireland West Airport - Knock is providing to an area with historically poor access. Anyone who lives in the West and North West will know that the facility provides a vital service be it regular connections to the UK or convenient tourist links to Europe. Many commercial and tourism businesses are dependent on the direct access it brings and the airport has become key piece of infrastructure in the region, with a focused management team who have turned the facility into a economic development powerhouse.

    I'm sure part of the drive in re-branding the airport was to lose the homegrown negative image that has always been associated with the "Knock" nickname outside of Connaught. If you think airport is still there to supply a few pilgrims to a shrine village your mad. The amount of pilgrim charters are minuscule in comparison to the commercial traffic.

    A few facts. What ever you think about it's history it is centrally situated by the junction of the national primary N5 and N17 routes, within about an hour of most towns in Connaught. Access is improving with the N5 Charlestown, N17 Claremorris/Tuam bypass and the Atlantic corridor projects. Many choose to people travel from other provinces to avoid the congestion and expense of parking in Dublin.

    They will carry up to 700,000 this year and with daily scheduled connections to 8 UK, 2 US airports, 13 regular European charter destinations, and are on track to reach 1 million by 2010. It is the the only international capable runway in the BMW region, offering high capacity jet services. The major infrastructural program in place will improve technical facilities for airlines and increase terminal facilities for passengers.

    So I think the future looks far more positive for Knock than some would have you believe.


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    #20
    dmeehan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭dmeehan


    BrianD wrote: »
    Kerry Airport has a rail link very close by and it has not been able to capitalise on it. It's there and nobody is coming! Knock take note.
    thats because you have to walk the 500m - 1km from the airport to the train station, with all of your luggage, crossing two national primary routes with out any pedestrian crossings on the way.

    At least they now have a footpath and street lighting from the airport to the village, and Bus Eireann have decided to service the airport also. There were rumours about Germans been run over carrying their luggage while walking on the road at night


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    #21
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Cork Airport has one huge advantage often overlooked....being built on top of a mountain means its closer to the sky and the planes save a lot of fuel when landing and taking off...

    .Cork Airport,,,,the GREEN Airport....

    No?

    oh well.....

    Like to repeat the sentiment above, if Shannon isnt getting a rail link from a line just a handful of miles away, the Knock has no chance (hopefully)


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    #22
    paulm17781
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭paulm17781


    dermo88 wrote: »
    London.....ripoff, but its London. Definitely a case of stick and more stick when you want to travel, breathe, or live.

    I'd have to disagree with that. I just came back from London. An Oyster card with £7 did me for three days. Heathrow to Kings cross, bus from there. Then several other journeys over the next couple of days. Then back to Heathrow.

    Sure it is more expensive than a lot of places but once you use the integrated ticketing (take note powers that be) it works out far cheaper than Dublin.


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    #23
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,700 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    corktina wrote: »
    Cork Airport has one huge advantage often overlooked....being built on top of a mountain means its closer to the sky and the planes save a lot of fuel when landing and taking off...
    nope, the air up there is thinner so planes have a higher take off speed / lighter load / need bigger engines which have to be carried the whole journey. :D

    With highs peed rail just how far away can you go to an quiet airport to beat the queues at a busy one. If Knock or Shannon took an hour less to get from the Car park to the plane than Dublin then a TGV could look attractive. Probably cost less than the taxi to Dublin Airport too.


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