First-world guilt

KyussBishop · 10-11-2013 3:18pm

Rabelais wrote: »

The modern European Left are in dire need of a figurehead and set of principles that actively challenge the general consensus, and put forward workable proposals on a genuine alternative.

It has been injured since the Marshall Plan poured money into Europe, hamstrung once the French student protests became a 'hot topic' issue, and utterly handicapped since the liberalisation of economic policy as a result of the downfall of the Iron Curtain and marxist socialism.

There is an overarching consensus that modern left wing ideology must concern itself with social issues. So we have righteous indignation over things like the abortion debate and the legalisation of cannabis; issues that are of very little concern for the broader working and middle classes. The centre right are taking such broad concepts on board and legislating for them, and have thus been in power across most European jurisdictions since the early 40's. Social and Christian democracy is an appealing concept to most voters, and those further left have to come up with reasonable alternatives.

Yes I don't understand this myself - most of the actual solutions aren't all that complicated, and they are explicitly intertwined with how we run our own countries as well (politically and economically), but there is an almost complete lack of leaders on 'the left' for actually working towards this politically. I wonder why that is.

Seaneh · 10-11-2013 3:28pm

KyussBishop wrote: »

Yes I don't understand this myself - most of the actual solutions aren't all that complicated, and they are explicitly intertwined with how we run our own countries as well (politically and economically), but there is an almost complete lack of leaders on 'the left' for actually working towards this politically. I wonder why that is.

There is no real mainstream "left" in Europe any more. The Right has gone so far Right that the centrists look "left" in comparison. The mainstream "left" has totally moved to the centre. In Europe we have almost exclusively centrist and centre right governments, even France's current "socialist" government is far more centre than left.

KyussBishop · 10-11-2013 3:53pm

Seaneh wrote: »

There is no real mainstream "left" in Europe any more. The Right has gone so far Right that the centrists look "left" in comparison. The mainstream "left" has totally moved to the centre. In Europe we have almost exclusively centrist and centre right governments, even France's current "socialist" government is far more centre than left.

True yes - in my own view, this is entirely down to economics: Teaching of economics itself, is very much right-leaning today, and much of what is taught is just plain wrong as well - and is kept that way for political purposes.
So even if you consider yourself 'left', you can end up indoctrinating yourself into economics that is fundamentally on the right.

Slowly though, there is more left-leaning economics emerging (the 'Post-Keynesian' crowd; they've been around for many decades but slowly gaining more support) - but they are having a really hard time gaining any kind of traction publicly/politically.

daRobot · 10-11-2013 4:01pm

No, I don't feel any guilt about it whatsoever. I have empathy for them, yes, but not guilt.

If you take on all the sadness of the world (and there is plenty there), it'll bring you to a very bad place.

Unfortunately, a lot of poverty throughout the world is due to corrupt governments, who plunder the natural resources of their own county for personal gain, and live like emperors, while their own people starve.

That's nothing for you, or I to feel guilty about, as you're not in any form responsible.

MadYaker · 10-11-2013 4:01pm

Why should I feel guilty? It's not my fault I was born into a middle class family in a first world country. I had no control over it, but I'm grateful and I'll make the most of it.

czx · 10-11-2013 4:05pm

KyussBishop wrote: »

Yes I don't understand this myself - most of the actual solutions aren't all that complicated, and they are explicitly intertwined with how we run our own countries as well (politically and economically), but there is an almost complete lack of leaders on 'the left' for actually working towards this politically. I wonder why that is.

Because anyone with half a brain steers well clear

Capt'n Midnight · 10-11-2013 5:56pm

gw80 wrote: »

i dont think there is a lot we can do, maybe help out as much as we can here and their but thats more of a band aid on a gapping wound.Its the people of those countries that have to pull themselves out of their situation ultamatley.

You cant just go in and force it to happen as is evident from history recent and further back.

The reality of the situation is that wealth transfer from the "third world" is several times that going back to it.

All we have to do is replace Aid with Trade

And all we have to get that to happen is remove the protectionism , trade barriers and most importantly the transfer pricing and account scams whereby stuff like half the GDP of Zambia magically vanishes and reappears in a small town in Switzerland.

China are cleaning up in Africa because there's no hidden agenda, it's simple exploitation, and when they offer to build a road as a sweetner , the road gets built.

And like carbon footprint there is also the concept of "Human Rights Footprint"

camel jockey · 10-11-2013 6:03pm

whirlpool wrote: »

Look at ye, there, with your roof over your head, your bearable climate, your food and water, your antibiotics, your freedom and your safety from barbarism.

Ever feel like a d*ckhead for getting to live in humane conditions? Guilty for getting to have been born in the first-world?

The third world sucks for its citizens. It could have been any of us.

(And yet, most of us still find stuff to moan about.)

No. They all sound like third world problems, we live in the first world.

HansHolzel · 10-11-2013 6:04pm

Haven't we given up trying to find what happened to our missing four mill in Uganda?

PizzamanIRL · 10-11-2013 6:05pm

whirlpool wrote: »

This reminds me. I have to add these kinds of replies to the "trivial things that annoy you" thread.

You mean you want to moan?

Look at you.

camel jockey · 10-11-2013 6:13pm

If I had a choice of giving money to an Irish animal charity or a third world charity, I'd go for the Irish animal charity.

padma · 10-11-2013 6:21pm

camel jockey wrote: »

If I had a choice of giving money to an Irish animal charity or a third world charity, I'd go for the Irish animal charity.

cos you ride camels?

camel jockey · 10-11-2013 6:24pm

padma wrote: »

cos you ride camels?

Exactly. There are a lot of neglected camels here.

Capt'n Midnight · 10-11-2013 6:37pm

camel jockey wrote: »

If I had a choice of giving money to an Irish animal charity or a third world charity, I'd go for the Irish animal charity.

What if reducing the rate at which we asset strip the third world reduced the number of economic migrants following the money ?

Lunni · 10-11-2013 6:47pm

No, I don't feel guilty because none of it is my fault and I didn't cause any of it. I do give to charity and try to help out where I can.

What does annoy me is 'first world problems' people like the OP. I find that people who trot out the first world problems line are the ones who have the blessed lives and can't see that not everyone in the first world has it as easy as they do.

Plenty of people in Ireland are suffering from terrible diseases and mental health problems and can't easily get the medical help they need. Plenty of people have to cope with bereavements, break-ups and things like that, plenty of people have financial worries that keep them up all night.

No, things are probably never as bad here as they are for poor people in the third world, but it doesn't mean that nobody in the first world has nothing to moan about except for not being able to afford a new pair of heels or to go out drinking 3 nights a week.

MadsL · 10-11-2013 8:46pm

Seaneh wrote: »

I've seen real poverty, I've seen entire villages where the locals live on less than $1 per day, I've seen families living in a rubbish dump.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOW4QiOD-oc

Femme_Fatale · 10-11-2013 10:41pm

KyussBishop wrote: »

Just because standards somewhere else in the world are so low, does not mean we should stop demanding higher standards ourselves - we should always demand higher standards, and a more fair distribution of wealth/resources both locally and internationally, and shouldn't ever feel guilt or schadenfreude that someone, somewhere else, has it worse - when we have absolutely no direct control over that (but we do have indirect control, through politics).

It's kind of ironic that, that the common comforting sentiment of "things might be bad, but at least we're not in Africa!", is really like a big dose of schadenfreude, mixed with trying to guilt/shame someone into accepting crap standards in their own situation - if you're putting up with shítty standards in one way or another, you probably should be angry about it (if nobody ever is, nothing will change), so when you get that from someone, let them know just how unhelpful and actively harmful it is.

But it doesn't change the dumbness of saying "Ireland is a third world country" and it doesn't change that we are lucky to have been born here. You can still demand improvements here yet acknowledge the above.

mad muffin · 10-11-2013 10:54pm

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

But it doesn't change the dumbness of saying "Ireland is a third world country" and it doesn't change that we are lucky to have been born here. You can still demand improvements here yet acknowledge the above.

Third world? No. Third rate? Most definitely.

KyussBishop · 11-11-2013 12:23am

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

But it doesn't change the dumbness of saying "Ireland is a third world country" and it doesn't change that we are lucky to have been born here. You can still demand improvements here yet acknowledge the above.

I didn't see anyone argue that we were a third world country though, and where we are born doesn't have much to do with luck - we will quite definitively gain the nationalities of our parents, and there isn't any luck involved in that.

whirlpool · 11-11-2013 9:54pm

mikom wrote: »

First world problems..........

Indeed.

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs51/f/2009/337/3/8/Loser_by_mysticalpha.jpg

Boombastic · 11-11-2013 9:58pm

There are only so many wells we can build. No guilt here

whirlpool · 11-11-2013 9:58pm

Lunni wrote: »

No, I don't feel guilty because none of it is my fault and I didn't cause any of it. I do give to charity and try to help out where I can.

What does annoy me is 'first world problems' people like the OP. I find that people who trot out the first world problems line are the ones who have the blessed lives and can't see that not everyone in the first world has it as easy as they do.

Plenty of people in Ireland are suffering from terrible diseases and mental health problems and can't easily get the medical help they need. Plenty of people have to cope with bereavements, break-ups and things like that, plenty of people have financial worries that keep them up all night.

No, things are probably never as bad here as they are for poor people in the third world, but it doesn't mean that nobody in the first world has nothing to moan about except for not being able to afford a new pair of heels or to go out drinking 3 nights a week.

It doesn't mean that nobody in the first world has nothing to worry about?

They don't allow images here so please go ahead and just imagine the face-palm.

whirlpool · 11-11-2013 10:01pm

Lunni wrote: »

No, I don't feel guilty because none of it is my fault and I didn't cause any of it. I do give to charity and try to help out where I can.

What does annoy me is 'first world problems' people like the OP. I find that people who trot out the first world problems line are the ones who have the blessed lives and can't see that not everyone in the first world has it as easy as they do.

Plenty of people in Ireland are suffering from terrible diseases and mental health problems and can't easily get the medical help they need. Plenty of people have to cope with bereavements, break-ups and things like that, plenty of people have financial worries that keep them up all night.

No, things are probably never as bad here as they are for poor people in the third world, but it doesn't mean that nobody in the first world has nothing to moan about except for not being able to afford a new pair of heels or to go out drinking 3 nights a week.

I call bullsh*t on an astronomical amount of your post.

dd972 · 11-11-2013 10:12pm

I wish these Somalians would stop starting threads, haven't they their own boards ?

Fighting Irish · 12-11-2013 1:20am

whirlpool wrote: »

Look at ye, there, with your roof over your head, your bearable climate, your food and water, your antibiotics, your freedom and your safety from barbarism.

Ever feel like a d*ckhead for getting to live in humane conditions? Guilty for getting to have been born in the first-world?

The third world sucks for its citizens. It could have been any of us.

(And yet, most of us still find stuff to moan about.)

luck of the draw my friend

12-11-2013 1:29am

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

One example: the elderly are living in cold homes because they are afraid that their heating will be cut off if they can't pay their bill. Eh... no it won't. The key is in "They are afraid that" - a fear doesn't mean a reality. Newspapers scaremongering such shyte is just going to make it worse for them.
Disconnection is an absolute last resort following countless notifications - and is carried out on people who don't bother their arses paying; not people who genuinely struggle.

Saw a good one in the local paper last week. The latest argument to not do anything about Travel Passes is that OAPs are using them to get out of the house for the day because they can't afford to pay their heating bills.

donegal__road · 12-11-2013 1:34am

clairefontaine wrote: »

8000 Irish people died building the canal in New Orleans because they were cheaper to replace than slaves, who only knows how many Irish dead bodies are at the bottom of bridges in NYC.

So I hate to tell you this folks, no Irish person is entitled to feel first world guilt.

a bit of a time difference there Claire.. plus the OP is referring to Ireland today... not the Ireland of 1830's when the New Orleans canal was constructed, so I dont get your point

A Primal Nut · 12-11-2013 1:39am

clairefontaine wrote: »

8000 Irish people died building the canal in New Orleans because they were cheaper to replace than slaves, who only knows how many Irish dead bodies are at the bottom of bridges in NYC.

So I hate to tell you this folks, no Irish person is entitled to feel first world guilt.

What do those people have to do with us? They suffered that way, we didn't. The fact we are the same nationality is irrelevant.

By the same logic you can compare David Beckham with a British miner in the 1800s because they are the same nationality.

hatrickpatrick · 12-11-2013 1:51am

Nobody, no matter who they are, should ever feel in any way ashamed or guilty of the background and context they are born into. One has absolutely no control of that. One DOES have control of what they make of it subsequently, however.

To quote Batman: "It's not who I am underneath... But what I do, that defines me."

poundapunnet · 12-11-2013 1:59am

I don't feel guilty really, I am grateful if I stop and think about it. One thing which does annoy me is when something good happens (I'm thinking of a specific example when by a pure fluke I happened to find a friend of mine who needed an ambulance very badly and was able to call one) and someone will always say

"Everything happens for a reason

"

That's a very troubling philosophy given the truly **** living conditions of most of the people on the planet.

First-world guilt

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