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can you get a job in development without degree

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    #32
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 9,989 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    jester77 wrote: »
    Well, anyone who is anyway semi-serious about being a developer would need to understand fundamental design patterns, identify them by looking at existing code and know which patterns are best to apply in a given situation based on requirements. It's not hard to throw code together, anyone with basic knowledge can do this, but being able to build a solution using best practices based off existing templates requires some level of skill and knowledge. If someone can display this level of knowledge without a degree then I don't see why they wouldn't be able to land a development position.

    The problem is that they will not get past the first HR filter - a degree...


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    #33
    L.Jenkins
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,240 Mod ✭✭✭✭L.Jenkins


    It is possible to bypass HR and go straight to the hiring manager themselves.


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    #34
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 9,989 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Itzy wrote: »
    It is possible to bypass HR and go straight to the hiring manager themselves.

    Not in the vast majority of situations as you would need to know who actual hiring manager is and he would need to be willing to by pass the hiring process, in other words not a very realistic prospect. I really don't have much time for 'flying pigs'.


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    #35
    croo
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 1,333 Mod ✭✭✭✭croo


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    ...in other words not a very realistic prospect. I really don't have much time for 'flying pigs'.
    So we can take it, you believe there are no people (or few at least) in developer positions today who don't have CS/IT degrees?

    Personally, I never found there was much relationship between having a CS degree and being a good developer, usually the students knowledge was quiet dated. In fairness, the IT world changes so rapidly that you could learning something in first year that is obsolete by the time you complete... well not quite but nearly :)

    Case in point, there was someone, in another post here recently, asking for grinds in DFD's & ER Diagrams! For a business degree admittedly but this was a computing module, I'd say there is a good chance that the CS students get the same. Those topics might be interesting for the history of computing courses :rolleyes:

    When I think back, to the people I worked with, which I considered were the best developers, more didn't have a CS degrees than did - while many did have some other degree though! Personally I look for people who just love developing but then I'm not HR!


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    #36
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    croo wrote: »
    So we can take it, you believe there are no people (or few at least) in developer positions today who don't have CS/IT degrees?...

    I think you need to differentiate between experienced people and new entrants.

    In my experience the vast majority of pure developers (as in its their primary activity) I've worked all have a diploma or degree, or masters in Computing in some form.

    Lots of people are in development but aren't really pure developers. As in its not their primary activity. You might get those with other degrees. They tend to be older experienced people.


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    #37
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 9,989 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    croo wrote: »
    So we can take it, you believe there are no people (or few at least) in developer positions today who don't have CS/IT degrees?

    No not at all, put most of them are my age (50+) or 10 years younger.
    croo wrote: »
    When I think back, to the people I worked with, which I considered were the best developers, more didn't have a CS degrees than did - while many did have some other degree though! Personally I look for people who just love developing but then I'm not HR!

    It really does not matter what we think, a degree is the standard filter these days with agencies, HR depts etc... And anyone starting out now would be very foolish to think that a degree is not necessary.


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    #38
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    croo wrote: »
    So we can take it, you believe there are no people (or few at least) in developer positions today who don't have CS/IT degrees?
    There are practically none who have no degree at all.

    As for CS degree, there would be very few who will have no third level CS qualification (be it a CS primary degree or CS postgraduate with a non-CS primary), after their first few years as developers.

    As Jim2007 pointed out, whether one believes that a CS degree makes you a better developer or not is irrelevant, as this is simply one of the primary filters employed by HR, like it or not.

    As such it's cyclical, in that during the boom times, those without CS degrees will be able to find jobs, as will those without degrees in the first place (although, this has been uncommon since the Dotcom), but my experience has been that even if they enter the industry without a degree or CS degree, almost all will end up getting one within their first decade because of how hiring works.


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    #39
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    ....but my experience has been that even if they enter the industry without a degree or CS degree, almost all will end up getting one within their first decade because of how hiring works.

    Apart from that most IT depts, will encourage people to do courses, and CS degrees part time. This best suits people with no commitments outside of work, family etc. As you get older you most likely have less free time. So the people without degrees tend to older people, who were already working IT lots experience, before it became a de facto standard.

    Even then you'll find internal roles will look for qualifications and CS degrees as a requirement for promotions.


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    #40
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    beauf wrote: »
    So the people without degrees tend to older people, who were already working IT lots experience, before it became a de facto standard.
    No, a degree was always sought. It's just that between about 1996 and 2000 we had such an unprecedented boom in IT that the capacity to switch on and off a computer qualified you for a job. So it's not so much older developers, but those who would have entered the industry during those years will be less likely to have any degree, let alone a CS one.


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    #41
    amen
    Registered Users Posts: 2,781 ✭✭✭amen


    croo wrote: »
    In fairness, the IT world changes so rapidly that you could learning something in first year that is obsolete by the time you complete... well not quite but nearly :)

    You seem to be missing the point of a CS Degree. The CS degree is not there to teach someone how to program in Java/C/VB etc. The degree is there to provide a solid theoritical understanding and background in how computers work, how programmes work and an understanding of algorithms. A good way to teach this is be using a programme language.

    A good CS student should hopefully be able to pick up any programming language with relative ease. The fundamentals are the same. For instance when Civil Engineers learn about bridge design they are taught about the forces in play, how to calculate the forces, loads etc.

    They can then take this knowledge and build a bridge out of wood, concrete, steel etc. Similarly a CS Grad can take their CS knowledge and build you a system in C/Java/C# etc
    croo wrote: »
    Case in point, there was someone, in another post here recently, asking for grinds in DFD's & ER Diagrams! For a business degree admittedly but this was a computing module, I'd say there is a good chance that the CS students get the same. Those topics might be interesting for the history of computing courses :rolleyes:
    I'm not sure you if you are joking or no but what is wrong with knowing ow DFDS & ER work ? How do you intend to model your system ?
    croo wrote: »
    When I think back, to the people I worked with, which I considered were the best developers, more didn't have a CS degrees than did - while many did have some other degree though! Personally I look for people who just love developing but then I'm not HR!

    yeah but they had a degree in something which is the what the OP asked. Basically no degree = very hard to get a job


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    #42
    croo
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 1,333 Mod ✭✭✭✭croo


    amen wrote: »
    You seem to be missing the point of a CS Degree. The CS degree is not there to teach someone how to program in Java/C/VB etc. The degree is there to provide a solid theoritical understanding and background in how computers work, how programmes work and an understanding of algorithms. A good way to teach this is be using a programme language.
    I don't think I misunderstand. And I agree, learning the syntax of a programming language is straight forward but you don't have to have a degree to know the rest and you might have a degree and not know the rest.
    amen wrote: »
    A good CS student should hopefully be able to pick up any programming language with relative ease. The fundamentals are the same. For instance when Civil Engineers learn about bridge design they are taught about the forces in play, how to calculate the forces, loads etc.

    They can then take this knowledge and build a bridge out of wood, concrete, steel etc. Similarly a CS Grad can take their CS knowledge and build you a system in C/Java/C# etc
    Yeah, that's really just the same point again. I think it depends on what the student will be working on. In software as well as bridge building there is one (or few at least) architect but many doing the actual work who are equally skilled (in other ways).
    amen wrote: »
    I'm not sure you if you are joking or no but what is wrong with knowing ow DFDS & ER work ? How do you intend to model your system ?
    I'm not joking! I have not seen DFD's used in a project since the 1980's... maybe early 90's. I used various Object Orientated modelling methodologies in the early-mid 90s and now would use UML.
    If I was modelling a database it would depend on the database.. now more than ever it is not necessarily a relational database.
    amen wrote: »
    yeah but they had a degree in something which is the what the OP asked. Basically no degree = very hard to get a job
    yes, but the point is. Can you practice law without a law degree? can you be an accountant [not a bookkeeper but sign off accounts] without an accounting degree? Can you practice medicine without a medical degree? No, but you can design, develop & deploy software. I degree is not a legal requirement.

    And don't get me wrong, knowledge is a great thing. And, as with anything, having a degree would always make life easier when looking for work.
    But if someone had a specific project with specific needs to complete and they have the option was between an industry certified developer (perhaps with some experience) and a CS graduate, albeit with knowledge of DFD & ER basics :) ... well I don't believe it is so clear cut.
    And yes, maybe [big maybe] the CS graduate could build the software equivalent of a bridge but most developer roles have more in common with the brickies/carpenters/whatever.


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    #43
    Evil Phil
    Registered Users Posts: 7,468 ✭✭✭Evil Phil


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    No, a degree was always sought. It's just that between about 1996 and 2000 we had such an unprecedented boom in IT that the capacity to switch on and off a computer qualified you for a job. So it's not so much older developers, but those who would have entered the industry during those years will be less likely to have any degree, let alone a CS one.

    Ha! My first job was in testing - and they hired me because I was using windows 95 which had been released a few months before the interview (installed of 24 floppy disks IIRC). They didn't have anybody else who had even seen it.

    As far as the qualifications are concerned. Yes, a qualification will get you past the HR process and it seems like little else I guess. I have a MSc in Internet Systems - I don't get asked a lot about it in interviews but I use the knowledge gained during my studies every day. I would expect anybody with a formal qualification to do the same - and their ability to do that will come out in the interview.

    However, as The Corinthian pointed out some academic courses are stale to say the least. I switched my course after 6 months for this reason, not all courses/universities are created equal after all.

    Somebody asked about treehouse and code.org - I wouldn't consider them if interviewing somebody BUT they are good perks to get from an employer and something to consider when applying for a position.


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    #44
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Evil Phil wrote: »
    Ha! My first job was in testing - and they hired me because I was using windows 95 which had been released a few months before the interview (installed of 24 floppy disks IIRC). They didn't have anybody else who had even seen it.
    Ahh... that glorified GUI for Windows 3.11, better known as Windows 95. I installed it in the Summer of 1995, and I vaguely remember I had a CD. Floppies were for the little people...
    Yes, a qualification will get you past the HR process and it seems like little else I guess.
    The qualification, I agree, but the theory and fundamentals I do believe are valuable.


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    #45
    Evil Phil
    Registered Users Posts: 7,468 ✭✭✭Evil Phil


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Floppies were for the little people...

    :pac:

    I didn't have access to a CD burner at the time. Not that I was making a copy of anything *cough*


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    #46
    amen
    Registered Users Posts: 2,781 ✭✭✭amen


    croo wrote: »
    yes, but the point is. Can you practice law without a law degree? can you be an accountant [not a bookkeeper but sign off accounts] without an accounting degree? Can you practice medicine without a medical degree? No, but you can design, develop & deploy software. I degree is not a legal requirement.

    But at one point in time anyone could practice as lawyer, doctor, engineer without formal qualifications and that lead to so many issues that society said nope, you have to be qualified.

    In the case of an Accountant you don't need to have a degree but you need to pass your relevant professional bodies exams.


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    #47
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    amen wrote: »
    But at one point in time anyone could practice as lawyer, doctor, engineer without formal qualifications and that lead to so many issues that society said nope, you have to be qualified.
    I think increased competition and wage inflation were the principle issues...


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    #48
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,381 ✭ [Deleted User]


    When people talk about github projects and you're working with something like Wordpress or Drupal, all your custom plugins/modules be a good part of a portfolio?
    Along with the finished product in the cv?


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