Public sector pay increase

barneystinson · 26-04-2015 9:34pm

To Elland Back wrote: »

So the talented and capable go elsewhere, leaving those with fewer options behind to run the Department. With a recruiting embargo, you think giving the remaining personnel a pay rise sorts the problem?

Recruitment embargo is over.

Even if it wasn't, would it not make sense to pay a reasonable rate to stop the brain drain.

Iwasfrozen · 26-04-2015 9:38pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I very much doubt you would get anyone to work as a principal in a 60 teacher school for that kind of money.

I envision the 50k cap to be a base salary, principals would get the 50k and a bonus based on the size of the school they're managing as they do now.

To Elland Back · 26-04-2015 9:55pm

barneystinson wrote: »

Recruitment embargo is over.

Even if it wasn't, would it not make sense to pay a reasonable rate to stop the brain drain.

But isn't that the whole point of this debate? Pay a good rate for capable people and do away with the journeymen.

evolving_doors · 26-04-2015 9:59pm

stefanovich wrote: »

Just a crazy thought... How about giving a pay rise based on performance rather than across the board. Might encourage some of them to pull the finger out. And in all fairness 2% is crap. Give 5/6 % to those few doing a good job.

Oh pay related performance you mean?

That went down a treat amongst the public for Irish Water didn't it?

Pay Related Performance.... It'll end up being called bonuses, and then you'll be back cribbing about people being payed bonuses for just doing their job!

But shur go on anyway... how would you do it?

Dentists --> Payed by the amount of extractions!
Nurses---> The speed at which patients are discharged (alive or dead).
Bus Drivers---> How fast they can get around the route.
Gardai---> How many Criminials they get to court
Teachers---> The amount of A's in the JC/LC
Social Workers---> The amount of cases resolved
Fireman---> Amount of fires put out

deseil · 26-04-2015 10:01pm

smurgen wrote: »

I'd argue fire services and military are underpaid and teacher are overpaid.that said the total spend on education sound be sustained while I see no need why the total spend on military should increase as a % of gdp.

I can assure you the fire services are the most well paid, and looked after group of the whole public sector.

evolving_doors · 26-04-2015 10:08pm

deseil wrote: »

I can assure you the fire services are the most well paid, and looked after group of the whole public sector.

And why shouldn't they be.. they would literally put their life on the line to save someone they don't know! Not to mention dealing with horrific deaths on an occasional basis..much more than you or I will ever see in our entire lives.

as_mo_bhosca · 26-04-2015 10:10pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Quite a lot. Given the working conditions I don't believe a cap at 45-50k will lead to a shortage of teachers.

You should try working in some of the conditions that I have taught in for that. No way I'd stick at it if I was capped at 45k for the rest of my career. You obviously have no idea what the job entails.

smurgen · 26-04-2015 10:13pm

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Oh pay related performance you mean?

That went down a treat amongst the public for Irish Water didn't it?

Pay Related Performance.... It'll end up being called bonuses, and then you'll be back cribbing about people being payed bonuses for just doing their job!

But shur go on anyway... how would you do it?

Dentists --> Payed by the amount of extractions!
Nurses---> The speed at which patients are discharged (alive or dead).
Bus Drivers---> How fast they can get around the route.
Gardai---> How many Criminials they get to court
Teachers---> The amount of A's in the JC/LC
Social Workers---> The amount of cases resolved
Fireman---> Amount of fires put out

there are many complex performance evaluation methods in the private sector that work just fine. why the resistance?

evolving_doors · 26-04-2015 10:14pm

ANyhow , this is all apples and oranges with averages.. comparing a Hairdresser to a brain surgeon. Or a CEO to an ambulance driver.

Back to some of the reasons why the disparity:

2009 CSO employment survey:

"....on average, public sector employees had higher educational attainment, longer service, were older, and were more likely to be in professional jobs than their counterparts in the private sector ".

So here's the shocker:

The more qualifications you have.... the more you get paid.

Iwasfrozen · 26-04-2015 10:15pm

as_mo_bhosca wrote: »

You should try working in some of the conditions that I have taught in for that. No way I'd stick at it if I was capped at 45k for the rest of my career. You obviously have no idea what the job entails.

What else would you do? It's very well saying people won't stick at it but then they'd need another degree. And as said before there is a greater supply of teachers than demand, there would be plenty to take your place if you did go.

ratracer · 26-04-2015 10:15pm

deseil wrote: »

I can assure you the fire services are the most well paid, and looked after group of the whole public sector.

By what yard stick do you measure that against? A link to something maybe??

evolving_doors · 26-04-2015 10:19pm

smurgen wrote: »

there are many complex performance evaluation methods in the private sector that work just fine. why the resistance?

That's the private sector.

Here's a definition of "profession":

"A profession is a vocation founded upon specialized educational training, the purpose of which is to supply objective counsel and service to others, for a direct and definite compensation, wholly apart from expectation of other business gain."

smurgen wrote: »

there are many complex performance evaluation methods in the private sector that work just fine. why the resistance?

But go on, outline some way to attach a performance element to the public sector. It can't be that complex BTW. My version is very simplistic.

Dentists --> Payed by the amount of extractions!
Nurses---> The speed at which patients are discharged (alive or dead).
Bus Drivers---> How fast they can get around the route.
Gardai---> How many Criminials they get to court
Teachers---> The amount of A's in the JC/LC
Social Workers---> The amount of cases resolved
Fireman---> Amount of fires put out

But the one you've suggested ... have you suggested one yet?

deseil · 26-04-2015 10:21pm

Gebgbegb wrote: »

And why shouldn't they be.. they would literally put their life on the line to save someone they don't know! Not to mention dealing with horrific deaths on an occasional basis..much more than you or I will ever see in our entire lives.

Exactly, they deserve every penny!

CiDeRmAn · 26-04-2015 10:22pm

I'd be happy to see performance reviews brought into my public sector workplace, to weed out the dead weight.
It's been on the cards for a while but hard to implement.
Unlike the private sector it's all stick and no carrot, as we can discipline people for a job done badly but can't give bonuses.

smurgen · 26-04-2015 10:27pm

Gebgbegb wrote: »

That's the private sector.

Here's the definition of profession:

"A profession is a vocation founded upon specialized educational training, the purpose of which is to supply objective counsel and service to others, for a direct and definite compensation, wholly apart from expectation of other business gain."

But go on, outline some way to attach a performance element to the public sector. It can't be that complex BTW. My version is very simplistic.

Dentists --> Payed by the amount of extractions!
Nurses---> The speed at which patients are discharged (alive or dead).
Bus Drivers---> How fast they can get around the route.
Gardai---> How many Criminials they get to court
Teachers---> The amount of A's in the JC/LC
Social Workers---> The amount of cases resolved
Fireman---> Amount of fires put out

But the one you've suggested ... have you suggested one yet?

in not an expert in any one of those fields so I couldn't comment.however I guess panels of expert in those fields could come up with a performance rating system. Also there wouldn't be one variable on which performance would be measured. We are measured in my job using subjective and objective evaluations. Speed , errors, total profit margin all being objective and subjective from supervisors and managers. these would be categories with items such as client attentiveness and interdepartmental relationship management. also clients are sometimes surveyed about their experience with us.it's a time consuming evaluation but measuring performance on simple variables as suggest by yourself would lead to a corruption of the system.

smurgen · 26-04-2015 10:32pm

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

I'd be happy to see performance reviews brought into my public sector workplace, to weed out the dead weight.
It's been on the cards for a while but hard to implement.
Unlike the private sector it's all stick and no carrot, as we can discipline people for a job done badly but can't give bonuses.

this is sometimes the problem in my job also as people only tend to take notice when something goes wrong! it's very hard to prove your worth on a day to day basis.this is why consistence is key. A person who is always ready to deal with problems and consistently turns out good work will more likely to be promoted.or at least I hope they are!

as_mo_bhosca · 26-04-2015 10:42pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What else would you do? It's very well saying people won't stick at it but then they'd need another degree. And as said before there is a greater supply of teachers than demand, there would be plenty to take your place if you did go.

And the cycle of people leaving would continue. Someone else posted on this thread about the brain drain. Luckily for society and services, you are not in charge of pay.
As for what I'd do, move to a career that would adequately reward you in line with your experience and service. It'd be worth starting training again than stay on your ludicrous pay scales.

Iwasfrozen · 26-04-2015 11:38pm

as_mo_bhosca wrote: »

And the cycle of people leaving would continue. Someone else posted on this thread about the brain drain. Luckily for society and services, you are not in charge of pay.
As for what I'd do, move to a career that would adequately reward you in line with your experience and service. It'd be worth starting training again than stay on your ludicrous pay scales.

I don't agree everyone would leave, as I've said before the teaching profession is over subscribed. Yes some would leave but they can be replaced and in the unlikely circumstance where schools are finding it impossible to fill positions the pay could be increased.

barneystinson · 27-04-2015 12:00am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't agree everyone would leave, as I've said before the teaching profession is over subscribed. Yes some would leave but they can be replaced and in the unlikely circumstance where schools are finding it impossible to fill positions the pay could be increased.

You're not really selling me the idea, IWF...

It's not even so much the problem of who would leave - it's the problem that if teaching becomes seen as a shîte job with shîte pay & conditions (like how I see it portrayed on US TV), within 10 years what happens to the calibre of people willing to work as teachers...

joe swanson · 27-04-2015 12:05am

I really hate the way a lot of media push an 'average wage' in certain sectors. An average wage is far from average.

I knows number of front line emergency services and I can tell you they don't get the "average wage" .

Also the indo pushing it as a pay rise when its nothing of the sort. The unions need to band together and demand nothing less than full restoration of pay.

Señor Fancy Pants · 27-04-2015 12:12am

Dustin Refined Flowerbed wrote: »

Now tell me, do you know ANYONE in the private sector who would work for an over time allowance of €47 for a 24 hour weekend (including holiday weekends) shift?... Not €47 per hour ~ €47 for the entire shift.

I think that after deductions we would come out with just less than a Euro an hour. Sooooo, between getting to and from work and if you bring your own rations, we are actually down money by working a 24hr shift.

But the likes of us aren't in it for the money, we always knew we wouldn't be rich. Being happy and being able to pay for what you have is the main thing.

The job is the job. There are easy days and there are hard days and when they are hard they are really hard

People think that we can sit on our ass for 21+ years and not get the boot then live like kings on a pension. We get yearly appraisals (sometimes 2 or 3) that are used for and against us. If you've been a bold boy you can get turfed out. You have to pass an annual fitness test (sometimes multiple times). If you fail it a few times you can be medically boarded and turfed out. You are eligible for random drug testing, fail and you are most likely turfed out (fully agree with this). Get in trouble with the cops, you can be turfed out. Say anything on social media, it can be used against you.

There are plenty of ways to turf us out. It's only a secure environment if you jump through the hoops.

I signed up for an initial 5 years and I was expected to do a certain amount of things in that time to be offered a new contract. I was further lucky enough to have been offered an additional 4, 3 and 9 years. All the while jumping through various hoops to keep my job. In reality, it wasn't an easy thing to do.

It's tougher on the families than it is on the troops. Having a partner that's away for anything from 24hrs to 6/12 months. Somedays Up at 0300 and not back until 2100. Regularly missing weddings, christenings, birthdays, funerals and Christmas's because you have to work. Even things like your friends heading off travelling for a year....at least they will Skype ya!

When I hit 21 years service I will be 39. It's mad to think I can be drawing a pension at that age. It will have been 21 exciting years, full of pride, full of seeing and doing things that a lot of people will never see or do.

But jaysis, my body is broken from it. It's in a heap but I'm still happy. Il still take the 2% though.

Iwasfrozen · 27-04-2015 12:17am

barneystinson wrote: »

You're not really selling me the idea, IWF...

It's not even so much the problem of who would leave - it's the problem that if teaching becomes seen as a shîte job with shîte pay & conditions (like how I see it portrayed on US TV), within 10 years what happens to the calibre of people willing to work as teachers...

We set minimum calibre in university not in the pay packet. Any teacher who can pass their exams should be high calibre, if not the exams aren't hard enough.

as_mo_bhosca · 27-04-2015 12:22am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We set minimum calibre in university not in the pay packet. Any teacher who can pass their exams should be high calibre, if not the exams aren't hard enough.

You really have no idea what it's like. Under your pay scale there would be little or no senior teachers who hold masters degrees. I've worked with quite a few. Who would mentor the younger, lower paid teachers? Can't imagine working in some of the disadvantaged schools I've worked in without the sorry and advice of these higher paid teachers.
Ever heard of the university curve by the way?

Iwasfrozen · 27-04-2015 12:54am

as_mo_bhosca wrote: »

You really have no idea what it's like. Under your pay scale there would be little or no senior teachers who hold masters degrees. I've worked with quite a few. Who would mentor the younger, lower paid teachers? Can't imagine working in some of the disadvantaged schools I've worked in without the sorry and advice of these higher paid teachers.

Are you saying there would be no senior teachers or not senior teachers holding masters degrees? Either are a gross exageration, I have no doubt some senior teachers would leave if their salary was capped at 50k. Most however would not as senior teachers, senior workers in general, cannot easily pay the costs of re-education and fictional unemployment before they get settled in another area. Especially if they have children to put through college.

As for mentoring, teachers should graduate from uni with the skills needed to do their job, that's why we train them for two years.

scary · 27-04-2015 1:01am

[QUOTE=As for mentoring, teachers should graduate from uni with the skills needed to do their job, that's why we train them for two years.[/QUOTE]

absolute rubbish, do you really expect anybody to qualify from college and start a job and expect them to be proficient in that job straight away? your whole arguments are based on ideals not the real world.

Iwasfrozen · 27-04-2015 1:06am

scary wrote: »

absolute rubbish, do you really expect anybody to qualify from college and start a job and expect them to be proficient in that job straight away? your whole arguments are based on ideals not the real world.

Every new teacher fresh out of college in Ireland will have at least two years of experience teaching in a classroom so yes, I expect them to be proficient.

If they aren't, after two years of experience the colleges aren't doing their job and perhaps their funding should be looked at.

scary · 27-04-2015 1:11am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Every new teacher fresh out of college in Ireland will have at least two years of experience teaching in a classroom so yes, I expect them to be proficient.

If they aren't, after two years of experience the colleges aren't doing their job and perhaps their funding should be looked at.

like I said you're all about ideals not the real world, the training placement could be in a nice lovely school in a nice lovely area, when you have to get a job you could end up anywhere and dependent on the area it brings a whole new situation that you may never have dealt with and mentoring is vital for this.

Iwasfrozen · 27-04-2015 1:31am

scary wrote: »

like I said you're all about ideals not the real world, the training placement could be in a nice lovely school in a nice lovely area, when you have to get a job you could end up anywhere and dependent on the area it brings a whole new situation that you may never have dealt with and mentoring is vital for this.

Of course, and in extenuating circumstances you could expect things ike this but the above poster was trying to claim there would be no senior teachers left to mentor if we put a very modest cap of 50k on their salaries.

barneystinson · 27-04-2015 1:39am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Of course, and in extenuating circumstances you could expect things ike this but the above poster was trying to claim there would be no senior teachers left to mentor if we put a very modest cap of 50k on their salaries.

What age are you IWF, you strike me as very young and not very worldly?

What's your particular beef with teachers anyway, why don't you rewrite the rest of public sector pay scales while you're at it?

Iwasfrozen · 27-04-2015 1:43am

barneystinson wrote: »

What's your particular beef with teachers anyway, why don't you rewrite the rest of public sector pay scales while you're at it?

I have no particular beef with teachers we just got on the subject. I do think the public sector as a whole is over paid but a lot of these problems could be solved by workforce de-unionization.

barneystinson · 27-04-2015 1:55am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I have no particular beef with teachers we just got on the subject. I do think the public sector as a whole is over paid but a lot of these problems could be solved by workforce de-unionization.

Oh well if you think it then it must be true... :rolleyes:

Have you a lot of experience in large scale workforce de-unionisation (we spell it with an s on this zide of the Atlantic..!

)

You alzo conveniently ignored the firzt queztion I azked you.

Iwasfrozen · 27-04-2015 2:02am

barneystinson wrote: »

Oh well if you think it then it must be true... :rolleyes:

Have you a lot of experience in large scale workforce de-unionisation (we spell it with an s on this zide of the Atlantic..! )

You alzo conveniently ignored the firzt queztion I azked you.

Yes, I ignored your first question.

Secondly, de-unionization wouldn't be easy in the short term but long term it would allow the government much greater flexibility in dealing with the public sector.

Smidge · 27-04-2015 2:33am

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

What utter horse sh*t! Can you name the private sector counterpart for the following jobs:

Nurses
Gardai
Teachers
Army
Fire service
Prison officers

There is no private sector counterpart for them and they make up a huge percentage of the public sector.

What profession are you in and what are the wage differentials between yours and public service equivalent? Why didn't you join the public service if your own job is so poorly paid? Why did you chose that job? Were you not qualified enough to join the public service???

I'm afraid some of the above I would have to take serious issue with as for some bizarre reason, the above jobs seem to have garnered "reverence" with some people.

Lets deal with Nurses firstly.
I have a friend. He is a care assistant/home help for a private company under contract with the HSE for elderly people.
He is contracted for a half hour visit with each client(takes home after tax less than 5 euro for it).
He has to travel to each clients house(rural location/petrol costs/car running costs none of which there is an allowance for). So he could be 15 mins getting there and 15 back. Already 30 mins unpaid for with extra costs(fuel etc).
He is NEVER only there for 30 mins(for which he is paid less than a fiver)
He is expected to prepare food(breakfast/sandwichs etc), clean up dishes etc and tidy about and attend to the personal hygiene needs of the client.
This means change soiled hygiene products/sheets/clothes and then assist with washing the person and dressing them.
Then assisting the client with personal grooming/shopping. Helping them with their medication(reading labels/making sure they know what tablets they have to take during the day)
And also helping the client emotionally. Chatting. Company. Care giving.
He often spends 6 hours doing the job that pays him €15 for an hour and a half that he is contracted for(3 clients).
So why does he do it? Because no-one else will. Not for that money anyway.
Dont tell me there is, on a day to day basis that much of a difference in what he does than a nurse, so why the pay/benefits disparity?

Teacher

Did anyone see the recent media coverage of people working in the childcare industry?
They are paid a pittance(some not paid at all as such as they are filling these positions nationwide with TUS etc). One woman said around 8 euro per hour before tax and thats with a college degree.
These people are working longer hours than teachers(from 8 to 6 in a lot of cases and throughout the entire summer and other hols in a lot of cases)and whether you like it on not are TEACHING children.
They do a lot of what is done in Junior Infants in these facillities.
And dont get me started about teachers in general. A lot is rotten in the profession(there are some good teachers out there, dont get me wrong.)
We have issues in our school with teachers just not coming IN for classes. No shows. Class after class after class. Have a problem with it? Get told go to DoE about it. Drunk teachers as someone else mentioned? Yep, there have been incidents with the teacher still steaming drunk in class the next morning and losing it with the kids and then telling them to "work on X chapter and I'l be back....to return at the end of a double period :rolleyes:

As for Gardai..I am saddened to say that I have lost respect for them.
There have been 2 incidents in this month alone(April) with family members, that had genuine, serious need for assistance and well, the result was deplorable. Actually, to say "the result" implies there was "a result" from AGS. There wasn't. They didn't respond or assist in either case.

I know of people working in the private sector, security guards, taxi drivers, even cashiers in bookmakers who get attacked and assaulted regularly in their profession.
Where are the people shouting about their rights to better pay because its a job with extra risks?
A friend of mine is a taxi driver. Nice guy and not the boards stereotype of what they are. Many's a time he has dropped a drunken straggler home for free and helped a drunken buffoon after the "free drinkies office partayy" get into the house or A&E dept over his shoulder.
He has been robbed 6 times since xmas and physically assaulted 8 times(punched and kicked by men/scrabbed and slapped by drunken women)
My friend who works in the book makers has been attacked leaving work several times(for some reason these fools think SHE has some money

)

Apologies for the long post but its really boiling my p1ss that some people think that because the are protected within certain professions that their job is MORE worthwhile and valid than someone else's.
Its not. People are doing your job everyday. Just under a different title. And for less pay and perks.

scary · 27-04-2015 2:44am

Smidge wrote: »

Lets deal with Nurses firstly.
I have a friend. He is a care assistant/home help

Care assistants are not the same as nurses.

Smidge · 27-04-2015 2:48am

scary wrote: »

Care assistants are not the same as nurses.

You're right. They are not the same
A care assistant/home help worker does more.
How many nurse do you know that will not only change soiled bedding(and actually a lot of the time hospital assistants, not nurses do this)and wash you and do all of the tasks outlined above(the same as what a nurse does)but also do your shopping for you?

scary · 27-04-2015 2:54am

Smidge wrote: »

You're right. They are not the same
A care assistant/home help worker does more.
How many nurse do you know that will not only change soiled bedding and wash you and do all of the tasks outlined above(the same as what a nurse does)but also do your shopping for you?

if you're parent was in hospital and soiled themselves and there was no nurse to attend to them because they were away at the shops for another patient would you be happy? It's called home help for a reason

Smidge · 27-04-2015 2:58am

scary wrote: »

if you're parent was in hospital and soiled themselves and there was no nurse to attend to them because they were away at the shops for another patient would you be happy? It's called home help for a reason

The issue is the similarity within a role. Both roles are similar but the CA/HH has more duties within a tighter time frame and for less money perks.

You have missed the point completely.
It was comparing like with like in roles.

Go back and re-read the posts again.

Kermit.de.frog · 27-04-2015 3:09am

We are paying for an over staffed, over paid public service.

The right thing to do would be to keep the embargo on recruitment and hold pay as is for 2 more years. That would be in the country's interest.

scary · 27-04-2015 3:24am

Smidge wrote: »

The issue is the similarity within a role. Both roles are similar but the CA/HH has more duties within a tighter time frame and for less money perks.

You have missed the point completely.
It was comparing like with like in roles.

Go back and re-read the posts again.

I have, the comparison was between nurses and care assistants different roles and responsibilities.

Smidge · 27-04-2015 3:34am

scary wrote: »

I have, the comparison was between nurses and care assistants different roles and responsibilities.

Fair enough.
Outline a nurse's role and duties for me so?
Clearly. Point. By. Point

scary · 27-04-2015 4:11am

Smidge wrote: »

Fair enough.
Outline a nurse's role and duties for me so?
Clearly. Point. By. Point

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nursing_specialties

which specialty?

Jawgap · 27-04-2015 5:37am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't agree everyone would leave, as I've said before the teaching profession is over subscribed. Yes some would leave but they can be replaced and in the unlikely circumstance where schools are finding it impossible to fill positions the pay could be increased.

You won't be replacing like for like. There's a world of difference between a teacher with 10 years experience and a new grad.

Or to use my own example, about 24 months ago I was in a job in the PS and there were 3 other managers in the same role - combined experience equated to about 100 years and one of us was in a senior governance role in our professional body.

The PS is now saving a lot of salary. Of the four, two of us left and now work as 'poachers' instead of gamekeepers, one retired and one took early retirement and also took up 'poaching' but on a part-time basis.

I now work as a 'hired gun' for companies in the regulated sector I used to police. Meanwhile the 'sheriffs' are two good lads, well qualified, but less than 10 years experience between them. But there's a lot of salary being saved

as_mo_bhosca · 27-04-2015 8:35am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't agree everyone would leave, as I've said before the teaching profession is over subscribed. Yes some would leave but they can be replaced and in the unlikely circumstance where schools are finding it impossible to fill positions the pay could be increased.

How would you do that? What about areas that still find it very difficult to find sub cover. No one with experience would bother working in areas like inner city Limerick for any long term, believe me. Where is the incentive to upskill? Why would you spend thousands to gain a masters degree?
You are talking nonsense.

as_mo_bhosca · 27-04-2015 8:44am

These people are working longer hours than teachers(from 8 to 6 in a lot of cases and throughout the entire summer and other hols in a lot of cases)and whether you like it on not are TEACHING children.

In classes of 28 plus? No, don't think so. Big difference in standard of education provided too. I recently did a great job putting down a wooden floor for my father. I did it for the price of one of my mom's dinners. Shouldn't all carpenters work for the same? Yes, according to your logic. I use the word logic very loosely.

as_mo_bhosca · 27-04-2015 8:50am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Every new teacher fresh out of college in Ireland will have at least two years of experience teaching in a classroom so yes, I expect them to be proficient.

If they aren't, after two years of experience the colleges aren't doing their job and perhaps their funding should be looked at.

In that space of time a teacher is classified as an NQT. The DES expect mentoring to take place for a very good reason. There is also probation by the inspectorate. If you think an NQT can be be equated to a teacher with twenty years experience you're deluded.

joe swanson · 27-04-2015 9:16am

Smidge wrote: »

I'm afraid some of the above I would have to take serious issue with as for some bizarre reason, the above jobs seem to have garnered "reverence" with some people.

Lets deal with Nurses firstly.
I have a friend. He is a care assistant/home help for a private company under contract with the HSE for elderly people.
He is contracted for a half hour visit with each client(takes home after tax less than 5 euro for it).
He has to travel to each clients house(rural location/petrol costs/car running costs none of which there is an allowance for). So he could be 15 mins getting there and 15 back. Already 30 mins unpaid for with extra costs(fuel etc).
He is NEVER only there for 30 mins(for which he is paid less than a fiver)
He is expected to prepare food(breakfast/sandwichs etc), clean up dishes etc and tidy about and attend to the personal hygiene needs of the client.
This means change soiled hygiene products/sheets/clothes and then assist with washing the person and dressing them.
Then assisting the client with personal grooming/shopping. Helping them with their medication(reading labels/making sure they know what tablets they have to take during the day)
And also helping the client emotionally. Chatting. Company. Care giving.
He often spends 6 hours doing the job that pays him €15 for an hour and a half that he is contracted for(3 clients).
So why does he do it? Because no-one else will. Not for that money anyway.
Dont tell me there is, on a day to day basis that much of a difference in what he does than a nurse, so why the pay/benefits disparity?

Teacher

Did anyone see the recent media coverage of people working in the childcare industry?
They are paid a pittance(some not paid at all as such as they are filling these positions nationwide with TUS etc). One woman said around 8 euro per hour before tax and thats with a college degree.
These people are working longer hours than teachers(from 8 to 6 in a lot of cases and throughout the entire summer and other hols in a lot of cases)and whether you like it on not are TEACHING children.
They do a lot of what is done in Junior Infants in these facillities.
And dont get me started about teachers in general. A lot is rotten in the profession(there are some good teachers out there, dont get me wrong.)
We have issues in our school with teachers just not coming IN for classes. No shows. Class after class after class. Have a problem with it? Get told go to DoE about it. Drunk teachers as someone else mentioned? Yep, there have been incidents with the teacher still steaming drunk in class the next morning and losing it with the kids and then telling them to "work on X chapter and I'l be back....to return at the end of a double period :rolleyes:

As for Gardai..I am saddened to say that I have lost respect for them.
There have been 2 incidents in this month alone(April) with family members, that had genuine, serious need for assistance and well, the result was deplorable. Actually, to say "the result" implies there was "a result" from AGS. There wasn't. They didn't respond or assist in either case.

I know of people working in the private sector, security guards, taxi drivers, even cashiers in bookmakers who get attacked and assaulted regularly in their profession.
Where are the people shouting about their rights to better pay because its a job with extra risks?
A friend of mine is a taxi driver. Nice guy and not the boards stereotype of what they are. Many's a time he has dropped a drunken straggler home for free and helped a drunken buffoon after the "free drinkies office partayy" get into the house or A&E dept over his shoulder.
He has been robbed 6 times since xmas and physically assaulted 8 times(punched and kicked by men/scrabbed and slapped by drunken women)
My friend who works in the book makers has been attacked leaving work several times(for some reason these fools think SHE has some money )

Apologies for the long post but its really boiling my p1ss that some people think that because the are protected within certain professions that their job is MORE worthwhile and valid than someone else's.
Its not. People are doing your job everyday. Just under a different title. And for less pay and perks.

Biggest load of rubbish iv read in a long long time. Absolute tripe.

Polo_Mint · 27-04-2015 9:22am

How about the Public sector gets stripped down and made more efficient, Then increase the pay of the whoever is left.

I dont mean Garda and nurses but the backroom staff

scary · 27-04-2015 9:26am

Smidge wrote: »

He has to travel to each clients house(rural location/petrol costs/car running costs none of which there is an allowance for). So he could be 15 mins getting there and 15 back. Already 30 mins unpaid for with extra costs(fuel etc).

seriously, you're giving out because your friend has to make his way to work at his own expense and its only a 15 min journey to it? my heart bleeds purple piss for him.

ratracer · 27-04-2015 9:29am

Polo_Mint wrote: »

How about the Public sector gets stripped down and made more efficient, Then increase the pay of the whoever is left

But stripped down where exactly? Anywhere I've read, including this thread, its front line staff getting hammered:

Cut teachers -> bigger class size -> not good enough
Cut health staff -> long hospital waiting times etc, poor patient care in wards
Cut/freeze AGS -> more crime/less response.

In all cases, the top heavy management make decisions on critical staffing levels etc, and they are never going to vote themselves out of a job.

There are a lot of way PS money could be saved without ever cutting staff.

27-04-2015 10:13am

Smidge wrote: »

The issue is the similarity within a role. Both roles are similar but the CA/HH has more duties within a tighter time frame and for less money perks.

You have missed the point completely.
It was comparing like with like in roles.

Go back and re-read the posts again.

Firstly he is a care assistant working for a private company a care assistant working directly for the HSE is paid quite ok for the role with Sunday and night time allowances taken into account.

Comparing the work of a care assistant to that of a Nurse is like comparing a labourer to a site engineer. The labourer may work physically harder (some of the time) but they won't be paid as much as they didn't study for 4 years (minimum) in order to have an extremely in depth knowledge of health care, treatment of patients, identifying issues, understanding all about medications and administering them (and the huge responsibility that goes with this) etc etc etc.

Nurses also do all of the above the work that care assistants do when required but if possible they should concentrate on their other duties.

Public sector pay increase

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