Confiscating Free Travel Passes?

AlekSmart · 27-12-2013 6:43pm

V.W.L 11 wrote: »

means test it,same criteria as the medical card perhaps?if you qualify for one get the other????

Whilst as yet there is no indication from the DSP of a change in practice,the introduction of new validation arrangements for DSP Free Travel Recipients would appear to suggest something is afoot.

Over the past ten days I have also noted that most of the new DSP FT Cards I've inspected have a vaildity up to 2020,so the DSP must be confident of it's budget till then....:)

Victor · 27-12-2013 9:17pm

JJ Kavanagh have a notice up also.

http://jjkavanagh.ie/timetables

"All passengers availing of our services using their Free Travel Pass will be required to complete an information slip.
You will also be required to carry photo id which may be requested for inspection by the driver from time to time."

Jamie2k9 · 27-12-2013 9:55pm

The slip has always being around for JJ's but the other part hasn't. I hope that bus operators in particular actually bother to inspect as it's much bigger problem for them and while IE keep going at this, people will move to the bus as they can get away with it.

Th3B1tcH · 27-12-2013 11:21pm

New credit style 1s are being rolled out got mine week before christmas so hopefully will cut down alot of the abuse
IMO they shud reveiw all before sending out the new
its not a big deal when ur called for the new pps card they add it to that and post out then u ring to active whole card
This shud least kill 1s that werent handed back if a timeframe eg. 6mths as everyone getting new cards,they shud do these 1st with new claims

AlekSmart · 28-12-2013 2:11pm

Th3B1tcH wrote: »

New credit style 1s are being rolled out got mine week before christmas so hopefully will cut down a lot of the abuse
IMO they should review all before sending out the new.
Its not a big deal when ur called for the new pps card,they add it to that and post it out,then u ring to activate whole card.
This should at least kill 1s that werent handed back,if a timeframe eg: 6mths as everyone getting new cards,they should do these 1st with new claims

Very true indeed B1tcH.

The situation regarding the "exchange" of old for new Free Travel Document is currently a grey area.

It appears that the DSP initially (unsurprisingly) saw no benefit in adopting a form of accountability based introduction for the Free Travel Card.

Whilst only on a very basic level,an exchange of document at least allowed for some small level of reconciliation in terms of valid documentation.

However,as it stands,I understand the CIE companies are lobbying at a high level for the DSP to be required to implement some form of actual process to allow for OLD Free Travel Documents to be taken up.

This approach,is quite simply based upon reality,and that reality being that for a significant period,the DSP's insistance upon the Old-Style Free Pass remaining valid leaves the Free Travel Scheme wide open to an even greater level of Fraud and Misuse than is currently the situation.

A non-urban Free Travel Scheme member,say with Spouse/Companion endorsement,not required to exchange their old style Free Pass,is then free to leave it around where it may fall into the hands of a non-entitled person who may then see fit to use it until the old type is declared invalid,which may well be quite some time...:rolleyes:

This scenario,taken to it's limit,could well double the numbers of people actually presenting for Free Travel at the point of use,which given the current lack of ability to physically check,leads to a very interesting situation indeed in accounting terms.

It may well turn out,that Vehicles and Locations of the CIE group will end up as locations where old "Corn Flakes Box" documents will be accepted for disposal.

Interesting times ahead !

punisher5112 · 28-12-2013 2:32pm

Sure I had a passenger get on yesterday and showed me his hand now I mean hand as he had nothing in it and he proceeded to go upstairs.

He didn't get far as he wasn't travelling on my bus after that.

Wonder when there will be new checkers drafted in?

AlekSmart · 28-12-2013 3:04pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Sure I had a passenger get on yesterday and showed me his hand now I mean hand as he had nothing in it and he proceeded to go upstairs.

He didn't get far as he wasn't travelling on my bus after that.

Wonder when there will be new checkers drafted in?

You could have offered to read his palm for him.
......cue spooky theme tune as the Busdriver mournfully intones...."I see you talking a Lonnnng Walk....OHmmmm...all alone...in the rain....You will go far".

Victor · 29-12-2013 1:22pm

Th3B1tcH wrote: »

New credit style 1s are being rolled out got mine week before christmas so hopefully will cut down alot of the abuse
IMO they shud reveiw all before sending out the new
its not a big deal when ur called for the new pps card they add it to that and post out then u ring to active whole card
This shud least kill 1s that werent handed back if a timeframe eg. 6mths as everyone getting new cards,they shud do these 1st with new claims

Could I ask that you use full words?

Moderator

bmaxi · 29-12-2013 11:45pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Sure I had a passenger get on yesterday and showed me his hand now I mean hand as he had nothing in it and he proceeded to go upstairs.

He didn't get far as he wasn't travelling on my bus after that.

Wonder when there will be new checkers drafted in?

Whatever about his hand, I'd wager if you inspected his neck you'd discover a startling resemblance to a jockey's bollocks.

:) You have to have a grudging admiration for that.

mikemac1 · 31-12-2013 10:29am

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

In six years of using DB so that is thousands and thousands of journeys I've met an inspector once.

A team of three got on and they had some hotline setup with welfare to verify if passes were genuine or not. They were getting answers super quick. They got dogs abuse on the infamous 40 and it all came it an end when they removed a ne'er do well who kicked in the door and shattered the glass. Bus out of action

This thread is welcome news. I wonder where these inspection teams were for the last few years though

Hotblack Desiato · 31-12-2013 11:54am

mikemac1 wrote: »

A team of three got on and they had some hotline setup with welfare to verify if passes were genuine or not. They were getting answers super quick. They got dogs abuse on the infamous 40 and it all came it an end when they removed a ne'er do well who kicked in the door and shattered the glass. Bus out of action

So, were the Gardai called, perp arrested, and charged with criminal damage (and fraud.) ?

I think I know the answer... laws in Ireland only apply to those who choose to be bound by them.

galaxor · 01-01-2014 4:22am

This will be good if it stops the freeloaders and traders.

It won't be good if it stops those of us who need it to get to our appointments with the health service .

Bof No1 · 02-01-2014 1:50am

Anyone who's supposed to have a FT pass shouldn't feel threatened by people doing their job, whether on their way to medical appointments, or not.

Morf · 02-01-2014 2:26am

Bof No1 wrote: »

Anyone who's supposed to have a FT pass shouldn't feel threatened by people doing their job, whether on their way to medical appointments, or not.

I wouldn't say it's "people doing their jobs" rather than some of the rhetoric being thrown about every time the FTP is mentioned.

Jamie2k9 · 02-01-2014 5:15am

galaxor wrote: »

It won't be good if it stops those of us who need it to get to our appointments with the health service .

What nonsense, why would it affect such a thing, if you entitled to a pass you health appointments won't be affected or any other trips.

Bof No1 · 02-01-2014 2:35pm

Morf wrote: »

I wouldn't say it's "people doing their jobs" rather than some of the rhetoric being thrown about every time the FTP is mentioned.

The "people doing their jobs" I was referring to, were the inspectors checking FTP's, apologies for my lack of explanation. Rhetoric will always be thrown about when Govt. Depts. and peoples "entitlements" meet!

Morf · 02-01-2014 3:11pm

Bof No1 wrote: »

The "people doing their jobs" I was referring to, were the inspectors checking FTP's, apologies for my lack of explanation. Rhetoric will always be thrown about when Govt. Depts. and peoples "entitlements" meet!

I did understand your point, no need to apologise.

I was just adding that it was reasonable for legitimate pass holders to feel defensive whenever this topic comes up.

Bof No1 · 02-01-2014 3:40pm

Morf wrote: »

I was just adding that it was reasonable for legitimate pass holders to feel defensive whenever this topic comes up.

No problem. Unfortunately, I don't understand this. If, as you state, someone is a legitimate pass holder, what's to be defensive about? The operative word here being, "legitimate". I understand the "normal" Irish guilt factor, whereby you have something that others don't and you shouldn't flaunt it, but as I've already said, if you're entitled to to it, you're entitled to it.

Morf · 02-01-2014 8:48pm

Bof No1 wrote: »

No problem. Unfortunately, I don't understand this. If, as you state, someone is a legitimate pass holder, what's to be defensive about? The operative word here being, "legitimate". I understand the "normal" Irish guilt factor, whereby you have something that others don't and you shouldn't flaunt it, but as I've already said, if you're entitled to to it, you're entitled to it.

You make a good point.

It just rings with the agenda to have the working class round on people with state benefits, entitlements and unpleasant terms for people committing benefit fraud. It's a smokescreen for turning a blind-eye to white-collar crime, cronyism and deliberate inequality designed by the politicians, higher civil service, business leaders and so on.

It annoys me from this perspective.

Bof No1 · 03-01-2014 1:01am

I don't disagree entirely with what you're saying, but that's for another discussion thread, because I think we'd be so far off topic as to be on another planet, which might be a good thing, or not!

Morf · 03-01-2014 1:28am

I would be happy with the proposed smartcard system with biometric data.

My only reservations would be about data collection of FTP-smartcard holders.

kumate_champ07 · 03-01-2014 1:33am

Gatling wrote: »

Be interesting to see what will happen to the apparently thousands of fake passes being currently been sold around the country,
Probably end up with masses of them been dumped on the market before there totally useless

sounds like an urban myth

kumate_champ07 · 03-01-2014 1:36am

I was at heuston station during the summer and some guy carrying and drinking a can of beer skips to the front of the que with his free travel pass, didnt show ID and the pass looked crumpled. suppose they were afraid to say anything to him

Gatling · 03-01-2014 1:43am

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

sounds like an urban myth

No 12+ thousand recovered in the last few months alone in tallaght

Fred Swanson · 03-01-2014 1:48am

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L1011 · 03-01-2014 10:52am

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The major raid I heard of turned up blanks, unknown if fake or real - the current one is not hard to fake. Along with blank NCT and tax discs and similar.

There's been reported cases of real blank NCT certs being stolen so the supply of that sort of thing can be either false-on-real or fake.

Victor · 03-01-2014 6:12pm

Morf wrote: »

You make a good point.

It just rings with the agenda to have the working class round on people with state benefits, entitlements and unpleasant terms for people committing benefit fraud. It's a smokescreen for turning a blind-eye to white-collar crime, cronyism and deliberate inequality designed by the politicians, higher civil service, business leaders and so on.

It annoys me from this perspective.

Let's stay on topic.

Moderator

Bof No1 · 03-01-2014 6:35pm

Morf wrote: »

I would be happy with the proposed smartcard system with biometric data.

My only reservations would be about data collection of FTP-smartcard holders.

I'd agree with having a smartcard FTP to make fraudulent use harder, both in use of and copying/cloning of the FTP. Where I'd have the problem, would be with the data collection from same. If the data was analysed and a percentage of cards were found to be unused/little used over a set period of time, it would allow the relevant dept. leeway to cancel/remove the FTP, in a similar way to what they're doing with the discretionary medical cards. I understand it's different criteria, but the basic principle is the same. "Use it or lose it."

donegal11 · 11-01-2014 2:14am

Bof No1 wrote: »

I'd agree with having a smartcard FTP to make fraudulent use harder, both in use of and copying/cloning of the FTP. Where I'd have the problem, would be with the data collection from same. If the data was analysed and a percentage of cards were found to be unused/little used over a set period of time, it would allow the relevacriteria, but thent dept. leeway to cancel/remove the FTP, in a similar way to what they're doing with the discretionary medical cards. I understand it's different basic principle is the same. "Use it or lose it."

Discretionary medical cards relate to level of means and nothing to do with "use it or lose it". The majority of FTP relate to you position whether your a carer/disabled/pensioner, if FTP was less then expected(unlikely) payments to CIE might be reduced but to say someone in say donegal or mayo would loss there travel pass over someone in dublin just because they had less access to public transport. There's no comparison.

Fred Swanson · 11-01-2014 2:58am

This post has been deleted.

cdebru · 11-01-2014 12:24pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

How do you know ?
Just based on you don't use yours or have you actual data ?

Obviously as was stated previously if you live in a rural area your opportunity to use your free travel pass would be quite limited but in Dublin they are heavily used, certain routes and times those traveling on DSP passes would greatly outnumber those paying.

Bof No1 · 11-01-2014 4:00pm

Bof No1 wrote: »

I'd agree with having a smartcard FTP to make fraudulent use harder, both in use of and copying/cloning of the FTP. Where I'd have the problem, would be with the data collection from same. If the data was analysed and a percentage of cards were found to be unused/little used over a set period of time, it would allow the relevant dept. leeway to cancel/remove the FTP, in a similar way to what they're doing with the discretionary medical cards. I understand it's different criteria, but the basic principle is the same. "Use it or lose it."

Donegal11, I refer you to part of the above quote, where it says," I understand it's different criteria". I'd suggest you read the above post again, as it's to do with information gathering through the means of a smartcard FTP and the possible uses of that information by the information gatherers. I fail to see where in that post I suggest that someone in Dublin not using/losing their FTP, impacts on another FTP holder in another part of the Country.

the groutch · 11-01-2014 6:35pm

shouldnt be use it or lose it, but should be a nominal annual fee (eg. €50 per year).

Fred Swanson · 11-01-2014 6:56pm

This post has been deleted.

suicide_circus · 11-01-2014 7:23pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Indeed. Charge them full fees.

donegal11 · 11-01-2014 11:42pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

If they can cut phone allowance and chip away at the medical card, introduce subscription charges, property tax and water rates I don't think nominal fees are out of the question.

They could also limited it by giving Pass holders an annual fare limit such as a topped up leap card and once used you have to pay for yourself. It would make people value there free travel more,limit needless travel,subvention would be directed at services actually used and limit fraud (couldn't pass card around or balance would be used up)

thebrick · 12-01-2014 1:47am

donegal11 wrote: »

They could also limited it by giving Pass holders an annual fare limit such as a topped up leap card and once used you have to pay for yourself. It would make people value there free travel more,limit needless travel,subvention would be directed at services actually used and limit fraud (couldn't pass card around or balance would be used up)

Best idea ever posted in this forum, very hard to disagree with it.

Hilly Bill · 12-01-2014 12:26pm

donegal11 wrote: »

If they can cut phone allowance and chip away at the medical card, introduce subscription charges, property tax and water rates I don't think nominal fees are out of the question.

They could also limited it by giving Pass holders an annual fare limit such as a topped up leap card and once used you have to pay for yourself. It would make people value there free travel more,limit needless travel,subvention would be directed at services actually used and limit fraud (couldn't pass card around or balance would be used up)

That would cost more money rather than save anything as some wouldnt use it as much as others and some not at all. It would only work if its a virtual balance
for monitoring reasons and then charge after that providing they are not blind or a wheelchair user etc.

Sam Russell · 12-01-2014 12:44pm

donegal11 wrote: »

They could also limited it by giving Pass holders an annual fare limit such as a topped up leap card and once used you have to pay for yourself. It would make people value there free travel more,limit needless travel,subvention would be directed at services actually used and limit fraud (couldn't pass card around or balance would be used up)

If you put a cash limit on FTP use, then most users will try to get up to that amount without passing it - a bit like speed limits on roads.

FTP should be given to elderly people because a: They have a restriction on driving licences; b:it is better for their health to travel rather than be house bound; c: they provide a subsidy for public transport; d: they occupy otherwise vacant seats.

The only interference that would be likely is to restrict the start time for use of FTP, like after 9:30am. How that works for school kids, I assume would have to be tackled.

Too many people have the FTP with no restriction. A carer for Mrs Murphy down in Ballygobackwards gets one to vist Mrs Murphy but the carer can use it to go up to Dublin for the sales without Mrs. Murphy- no restriction. That is a problem. It is not fraud, but it is not right, and could be considered fraud.

Too few inspectors check the tickets - but even when they do, they do not check the travel pass itself.

Fred Swanson · 12-01-2014 12:52pm

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Bof No1 · 12-01-2014 1:07pm

It would be interesting to know if the people posting over the last day or so, who are so worried about the use of the FTP, whether "fraudulent" or otherwise, actually have one? To start the ball rolling, I do, but I don't use it much, as is my right!

Gatling · 12-01-2014 1:14pm

Bof No1 wrote: »

It would be interesting to know if the people posting over the last day or so, who are so worried about the use of the FTP, whether "fraudulent" or otherwise, actually have one? To start the ball rolling, I do, but I don't use it much, as is my right!

Do you have your own transportation ie car / bike ?

Actually personally I believe it should only be given to people who have impaired mobility and need public transport to get around ,

If you have a car / bike and don't use public transport at all it shouldn't be issued then ,

Entitlement doesn't = necessity

And I'm a pass holder with several medical conditions

bmaxi · 12-01-2014 4:03pm

donegal11 wrote: »

They could also limited it by giving Pass holders an annual fare limit such as a topped up leap card and once used you have to pay for yourself. It would make people value there free travel more,limit needless travel,subvention would be directed at services actually used and limit fraud (couldn't pass card around or balance would be used up)

How would you quantify that? For example, Government are intent on closing hospitals in rural areas necessitating people travel long distances to hospitals in the cities. Do you get the same allowance if you live in Dublin or say, Tullow? For instance you can travel the entire length of the no 15 route from Ballycullen to Clongriffin for €3.05, the fare for a similar distance, say Enniscorthy to Gorey, is over €10.

Outer suburban fares on Dublin Bus are also higher than city fares. Some years ago, I can recall, the fare between Saggart and Rathcoole, a distance of about a mile, was the same as the fare between Dublin and Saggart, about ten miles. So not easy to set up an equitable system.

The free travel scheme should not be abandoned. At it's inception it was set up as a recognition of the people who built this country and it's infrastructure, during even more challenging times than we live in today. It saddens me to see the venom poured out in this forum towards those people, sure it should be means tested, it should be only for certain classes of people and not for the ne'er do wells and the dregs of society but to limit it in any way for the older generation and the disabled is a non runner IMO.

It never ceases to amaze me the way some people will go apoplectic at the mere idea of having a free travel scheme for the elderly and disabled but will happilly ignore the tens and hundreds of millions which go to line the pockets of consultants, advisers and our self styled betters.

punisher5112 · 12-01-2014 7:22pm

I had a Passenger get on the bus Friday evening and show me a fairly new looking pass only the name, address and pass number were not very visible so took a closer look he handed it to me and goes it fell in a bucket of water.

All the details had been rubbed off as the pass was for a women and since he was a guy I knew straight away what he was at as he hadn't rubbed enough off as could barely make out miss on it.

I am sure he had another one on him for later because he just walked on but I will get him again as I know he is a messer and is stealing passes.

Sam Russell · 12-01-2014 8:07pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Did you read my post? I said it was not fraud, but I did say I thought it was not right and could be considered abuse. Not the same thing.

donegal11 · 12-01-2014 8:51pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

That would cost more money rather than save anything as some wouldn't use it as much as others and some not at all. It would only work if its a virtual balance
for monitoring reasons and then charge after that providing they are not blind or a wheelchair user etc.

If run on fare bases the balance of current average cost of €70 wouldn't go far so it would have to notional balance(or 10c fares). But if the balance was used up and justified need for further travel was required a means tested provision could apply in a similar way there is food and heating supplements that are provided by SW/HSE. This way the right of some free travel is respected but recognise that it's use is not FREE and those who can afford to pay do. There's no unlimited fuel (means tested),electricity or phone(cut) allowance so in the future with the introduction of the new Public service cards I don't see how travel would be any different as the ability to do so will be there.

Even if the scheme did cost more it would go directly into public transport and costs associated with the scheme,extra use outside limit would bring in extra revenue and those in genuine need provided for. The extra revenue could provide more services or help reduce fares for everyone.

punisher5112 · 12-01-2014 9:00pm

I know totally off topic but can anyone that reads this put in a complain t to Dublin Bus that the heating on their buses is non existent I am sick of telling them and I work there.

The whole travel scheme is going in the right direction with the new style smart pass but will be another 10 years I would say before implemented.

There will be a huge change in the coming months when driver's are given the chance to become checkers which will help cut out a small amount of these scammers and fraudsters but agree it will only be a drop in the ocean.

BuffyBot · 13-01-2014 8:54pm

Congratulations. Despite being warned not to, some of you managed to frogmarch the thread back into being a deabate on who/who should not have a FTP.

Confiscating Free Travel Passes?

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