Leo says Dart Underground likely to part of next investment proposals

corktina · 19-12-2013 9:42pm

robd wrote: »

I'd love to know what the point of M20 between Limerick and Cork and a rail link along it has to do with Dart Underground in Dublin.

This thread is quickly descending to levels of mass irrelevance to the topic.

"next investment proposals"

end of the road · 19-12-2013 10:14pm

MGWR wrote: »

That's not a new network, but electrification of an extant network. And last I heard, the electrification on the Northern Line was supposed to end at Balbriggan instead of Drogheda. Neither Balbriggan nor Hazelhatch are good stations for termini.

agree with all that

MGWR wrote: »

I also do not see anyone wishing to ride to Drogheda on an 8100-class EMU, too; there is a certain level of comfort that one needs if one is riding a train over the ten-mile mark, and so far, none of the DART EMUs have it, and only a few have the top speed to be relatively competitive over such a distance

which is why either new EMUS speciffically for such services will be bought or by the time such electrification happens the 8100s will be long gone and the 8500/10/20 class will be about to be replaced meaning all new EMU stock will be bought

MGWR wrote: »

IE always seems to have "high hopes" of making it into the latter half of the 20th century; 125 mph (200 km/h) top speed on the rails as best practice was achieved by the 1970s. Replacing rolling stock too frequently simply to waste money will merely get the country back into the doldrums, especially since such spending would be coupled by other government waste.

agree with all that also

Jamie2k9 · 19-12-2013 10:34pm

KCAccidental wrote: »

well that's the point. People are dying on the N20 at points where the road is at the level of a regional or country road. Some parts of the N20 are in an atrocious condition.

Also 2+1 was trialled on the N20 and has been an abject failure. Causing more deaths.

2+1 failed, given it happened across major routes in Ireland and the UK what sort of drivers used the N20. Clearly if it has failed it clearly shows that drivers are the real problem.

Vanquished · 19-12-2013 11:15pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

2+1 failed, given it happened across major routes in Ireland and the UK what sort of drivers used the N20. Clearly if it has failed it clearly shows that drivers are the real problem.

Terrific over simplification there! Yeah N20 drivers are just different. For some unknown reason they crash and die more! It has nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of the road!:rolleyes:

The 2+1 project was trialled at a number of locations across the country and in the end the NRA decided after studying its impact at each location not to consider it for future road schemes.

Maybe do some research in future before posting such ill-informed rubbish!

Jamie2k9 · 19-12-2013 11:42pm

Terrific over simplification there! Yeah N20 drivers are just different. For some unknown reason they crash and die more! It has nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of the road!

Speed over road quality like most cashes on any road and so far everybody on here is just blaming the road when the stats are there on speed. I'm not disputing parts of the road are poor but people are only blaming that for accidents when its not the only problem.

The 2+1 project was trialled at a number of locations across the country and in the end the NRA decided after studying its impact at each location not to consider it for future road schemes.

Maybe do some research in future before posting such ill-informed rubbish!

NRA being daft again as usual as where I live if it wasn't on the N25 which is full of it and lot more people would of died had it being just 1+1 all the way. If there was major safety risks they wouldn't keep current 2+1 carriageway in operation.

Vanquished · 20-12-2013 12:15am

Where exactly are the 2+1 sections on the N25?

2+1 was used on the N24 Piltown bypass and it has been an unmitigated disaster. The bypass has actually proved to be more dangerous than the road it replaced considering the number of accidents on it. To such an extent that remedial measures are due to be implemented!

lucernarian · 20-12-2013 12:58am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Not disputing that its a safe mode of transport but look at the stats and see why people are being killed on roads, motorways have little responsible for the reduction as the most deaths don't happen on primary roads. Its regional and country ones most. It's people being caught and stricter road rules.

No reason why it needs to be a motorway, they could just rebuild the whole road better and have all towns bypassed, hard should and sections of the road that may need to be 2+1 carriageway but people will still be killed on the road whenever it opens. It's fact until people change their behaviour road deaths won't drop.

It's also worth remembering that people are still dying on any number of roads now classified as regional that were once national roads. For instance: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/teenager-dies-just-yards-from-where-grandfather-was-killed-22-years-ago-247786.html. And it's a road where there has been but this one fatality in the ten years since it was bypassed, and at least ten dead between the at-the-time Dunleer bypass start and Drogheda in the 5 or 6 years preceding the opening of the M1 Gormanstown to Monasterboice. Albeit 6 of those may have had little to do with how busy that road was given drink driving was a factor.

But yes bypasses need not be motorways though I'd leave that for the civil engineers to decide on the cost differences vs benefit between one approach and another. The NRA do have clear criteria on this I thought. Isn't this thread about whether the Govt. will go ahead with Dart Underground in the medium term?

Jamie2k9 · 20-12-2013 5:19am

Vanquished wrote: »

Where exactly are the 2+1 sections on the N25?

2+1 was used on the N24 Piltown bypass and it has been an unmitigated disaster. The bypass has actually proved to be more dangerous than the road it replaced considering the number of accidents on it. To such an extent that remedial measures are due to be implemented!

Very poor planning for that bypass TBH have never saw such a bad construction of a new road.

Bits of the Youghal bypass bypass is 2+1. 2+1 would of worked out better if it was just treated like a climbing lane.

2+1 roads in Sweden have cut fatal accidents by 50% so clearly 2+1 the product isn't the problem it was construction and planning by the NRA which is why it failed. In New Zealand they have no central barrier and they work well.

L1011 · 20-12-2013 5:38am

Youghal bypass predates the NRA 2+1 standards by years - it is just climbing/passing lanes.

The NRA did 2+1 very very badly and 2+2 isn't much dearer.

Jamie2k9 · 20-12-2013 6:06am

MYOB wrote: »

Youghal bypass predates the NRA 2+1 standards by years - it is just climbing/passing lanes.

The NRA did 2+1 very very badly and 2+2 isn't much dearer.

Well that is the case, its the oddest planned bypass with climbing lanes and not like your usual "climbing lanes" on other stretches of the road.

It's not even down to cost, 2+2 is better all round but 2+1 has failed in Ireland but has not elsewhere which is down to authorities and not the actual road. Like many things Ireland screws up on something else. Ireland and running/planning ALL forums of Transport just don't work well together at all.

Anyway moving on as we could argue all day, we can look forward to the M20 possibly by 2025-30 at this rate.

AugustusMinimus · 20-12-2013 9:47am

Those 2+1 sections of Cork to Mallow, I view as being incredibly dangerous. The M20 needs to be prioritised.

However, Varadkar will go ahead with just about every Dublin vanity project under the moon before the M20 will be touched.

If Cork and Limerick voters have any sense next time out, they'll hold back on giving FG votes. Cork having the FF leader could be a FG wasteland next time out.

corktina · 20-12-2013 10:19am

The N20 2+1, which I hate, has actually saved lives because it has eliminated unprotected right turns.

As a road however it is a disaster, with everything reduced to the speed of the lowest common denominator , often a tractor and then a mad scramble to overtake with just 1 km in which to do it.

That it is now the location for a Gosafe van will show you that it is not a particularly safe road...most of the N20 is dangerous and given the volume of traffic should have been replaced long before other roads already done.
That someone should rate the M20 project alongside re-opening Charleville to Patrickswell and Limerick is astounding to say the very least

Copyerselveson · 20-12-2013 11:26am

I think you're missing the point of the debate, it's not whether a poster's opinion is "astounding", it's about highlighting the willingness of government to spend money (money which is justified imho) on a dangerous stretch of road, but not willing or indeed pouring cold water on an additional transportation option which could be built on the same alignment, for maybe less cost if the two were developed separately.

Indeed the Charleville-Patrickswell alignment might be a far cheaper option for a combined M20/Rail link than giving "compo" to lucky landowners.

All too often in this country different opinions from the consensus are suppressed and if we are going to drag this country back from the brink we need to encourage not discourage different opinions as they may offer a new and better way of doing things.

robd · 20-12-2013 11:34am

Lads seriously. Take the M20 stuff to another thread. It's nothing to do with Dart Underground.

corktina · 20-12-2013 12:43pm

yes it is , the thread is about the the next investment proposals, at least partially.

Wanting to combine the M20 project with a no hope /not needed project like Charleville to Limerick will set back the M20 by years

bk · 20-12-2013 2:45pm

2+1 has saved lives here in Ireland, however after trailing it and analysing the outcomes it was decided that it isn't worth doing anymore here in Ireland.

The primary reason is that it was found that it was almost as expensive to build and maintain 2+1 as it is 2+2, in particular where the 2+2 has relatively narrow lanes, no hard shoulder and minimum central concrete divider. It turns out the land take for such a road is almost the same as a 2+1, while offering higher safety (no crashes at merge points on 2+1) and higher, more consistent speeds. So the NRA has wisely decided to go for narrow 2+2 for all future builds.

Also it turned out to be quiet expensive to maintain the wire central barriers, concrete barriers of 2+2 roads turn out to be much cheaper to maintain.

I'm sorry but Jamie is talking absolute nonsense when he says roads don't kill people.

It has been absolutely proven that when you replace a road with no central barrier with a road with a central barrier, it immediately leads to a significant reduction in collisions and deaths. Central barriers stop the worst and scariest type of collisions, the head on collision. Two cars travelling at 60km/h hitting head on has a combined mass equivalent to a car hitting a wall at 120km/h. Such head on collisions are almost always fatal.

Add to that improved road surface, sight lines, 2 lanes making over taking easy and no possibility of head on collisions, oh and the elimination of drives onto the road and you end up with roads that are significantly safer and safe lives.

I think anyone who drives regularly in Ireland knows that the new motorways are vastly safer then the old national roads and are almost single handly the reason for the reduction in deaths on our roads over the past few years.

It is engineering for safety, over leaving it to people and legislation.

The M20 is desperately needed and will absolutely save lives.

Copyerselveson · 20-12-2013 2:49pm

bk wrote: »

2+1 has saved lives here in Ireland, however after trailing it and analysing the outcomes it was decided that it isn't worth doing anymore here in Ireland.

The primary reason is that it was found that it was almost as expensive to build and maintain 2+1 as it is 2+2, in particular where the 2+2 has relatively narrow lanes, no hard shoulder and minimum central concrete divider. It turns out the land take for such a road is almost the same as a 2+1, while offering higher safety (no crashes at merge points on 2+1) and higher, more consistent speeds. So the NRA has wisely decided to go for narrow 2+2 for all future builds.

Also it turned out to be quiet expensive to maintain the wire central barriers, concrete barriers of 2+2 roads turn out to be much cheaper to maintain.

I'm sorry but Jamie is talking absolute nonsense when he says roads don't kill people.

It has been absolutely proven that when you replace a road with no central barrier with a road with a central barrier, it immediately leads to a significant reduction in collisions and deaths. Central barriers stop the worst and scariest type of collisions, the head on collision. Two cars travelling at 60km/h hitting head on has a combined mass equivalent to a car hitting a wall at 120km/h. Such head on collisions are almost always fatal.

Add to that improved road surface, sight lines, 2 lanes making over taking easy and no possibility of head on collisions, oh and the elimination of drives onto the road and you end up with roads that are significantly safer and safe lives.

I think anyone who drives regularly in Ireland knows that the new motorways are vastly safer then the old national roads and are almost single handly the reason for the reduction in deaths on our roads over the past few years.

It is engineering for safety, over leaving it to people and legislation.

The M20 is desperately needed and will absolutely save lives.

Got to say I agree with the above for the most part. How much will the M20 cost to build?

robd · 20-12-2013 2:50pm

corktina wrote: »

yes it is , the thread is about the the next investment proposals, at least partially.

Wanting to combine the M20 project with a no hope /not needed project like Charleville to Limerick will set back the M20 by years

It has descended into that and has become are fares. Title of thread clearly states what it is about. Dart Underground is a Dublin Rail project. M20 is a Cork - Limerick Road. Totally different and unrelated.

donvito99 · 20-12-2013 3:12pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

However, Varadkar will go ahead with just about every Dublin vanity project under the moon before the M20 will be touched.

This.

corktina · 20-12-2013 3:12pm

it could well be argued that the M20 should be "part of the next investment proposals".

Indeed it could be argued that it should be part of it ahead of DU, DU is merely a commuter boon whereas the M20 WILL save lives and maybe should take precedence on that basis.

I contend that it therefore on topic

bk · 20-12-2013 3:20pm

Copyerselveson wrote: »

Got to say I agree with the above for the most part. How much will the M20 cost to build?

Reports say it will cost €800 million for the entire length.

Not cheap, but desperately needed, you could break it down to cheaper phases.

To put it in context, the other motorways cost in the region of €8 Billion and the Newlands Cross Upgrade is costing €300 million and Dart Underground will cost about €3 Billion.

It is the final major piece in completing Ireland's Motorway network and saving lives. It is also vitally important economically to try and help Link Cork/Linerick/Galway to help them to counter balance Dublin.

end of the road · 20-12-2013 4:50pm

corktina wrote: »

a no hope /not needed project like Charleville to Limerick will set back the M20 by years

how do you know its not needed? the only way it will set back the m20 is if its built to a high speed and more people use it over the road, just because galway limerick (or ennis athenry to be exact) was badly built doesn't mean that a rail link between galway and limerick and limerick and cork isn't viable if done right or that the waterford limerick section of the rosslare limerick line can't be revived instead of being deliberately ran down toards closure like the rosslare waterford section

Copyerselveson · 20-12-2013 5:03pm

bk wrote: »

It is also vitally important economically to try and help Link Cork/Linerick/Galway to help them to counter balance Dublin.

This is the very crux of what's needed and I wholeheartedly agree with this too.

Getting the counterbalance of infrastructure in place means that the south and west have a compelling offer in terms of road and rail links to allow the freeer movement of freight and people.

A big weakness of our transport system whether road or rail is that it is too Dublin-centric. It's fine for getting people and goods to and from Dublin but cross-country journeys are on second-rate roads and rail links.

Tourists want to be able to travel quickly up and down the north, west and south, because that's where our most beautiful scenery is and we have a real lack of proper infrastructure on our roads and railways to get them there.

Ireland needs to be re-invented, getting our roads and railways in place to link the biggest non-Dublin cities and towns together would be a real start.

corktina · 20-12-2013 5:08pm

end of the road wrote: »

how do you know its not needed? the only way it will set back the m20 is if its built to a high speed and more people use it over the road, just because galway limerick (or ennis athenry to be exact) was badly built doesn't mean that a rail link between galway and limerick and limerick and cork isn't viable if done right or that the waterford limerick section of the rosslare limerick line can't be revived instead of being deliberately ran down toards closure like the rosslare waterford section

you can judge whether or not an improved transport link is needed by the number of passengers travelling that route by coach.
One 53 seater an hour for the most part.
Balance against that a few hundred cars plus umpteen trucks and vans and it is obvious that a second rail link is nowhere near as important as the M20 project.

schemingbohemia · 20-12-2013 5:43pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Those 2+1 sections of Cork to Mallow, I view as being incredibly dangerous. The M20 needs to be prioritised.

However, Varadkar will go ahead with just about every Dublin vanity project under the moon before the M20 will be touched.

If Cork and Limerick voters have any sense next time out, they'll hold back on giving FG votes. Cork having the FF leader could be a FG wasteland next time out.

This post to me says all that there is wrong with this country.

To describe the DART Underground as a "vanity project" shows severe ignorance of the project itself and it's game-changing aspect.

To then state that the M20 is more important and that the party that bankrupted the country should gain should it not be brought forward reeks of the kind of parochial self-interest that has ruined this country.

bk · 20-12-2013 6:23pm

schemingbohemia wrote: »

To describe the DART Underground as a "vanity project" shows severe ignorance of the project itself and it's game-changing aspect.

While I certainly agree that DU is not a vanity project and is a very important project, I would have to say that I don't think it is the number one priority.

I think Metro North is more important, followed by the M20.

Yes, DU will greatly improve the existing network, but it won't actually bring rail based transport to any new people. It will just mean those who already have rail based transport will get closer into the city center and potentially higher frequency of services *.

MN on the other hand will almost completely serve parts of the city that have never had rail based transport. North Dublin is actually the most densely populated part of the city, actually more densely populated then the already well served south side of the city. And of course it brings a rail link to the airport and a rail link to Swords (the largest town in Ireland) and many other important landmarks like DCU, Croke Park, Mater Hospital, etc.

To me, MN is far more important then DU for those reasons.

I fell the M20 is more important on the grounds of improving safety and saving lives and also creating a greater balance between Dublin and "the regions".

However I don't think it is a case of M20 or DU. They cost very different amounts of money.

I'd guess that it is a case of DU versus MN AND M20 versus a variety of smaller road projects.

end of the road · 20-12-2013 6:48pm

mn and DU should be 1, bringing MN into the dart network would allow for full integration and would ultimately lead to slightly less costs such as maintenence and so on, i also believe once the luas infrastructure becomes old enough to need replacing it should also be brought into the heavy rail network and put underground meaning a faster and potentially more frequent rail service and also would mean integration and easier maintenence, but i don't think it will happen

corktina · 20-12-2013 6:55pm

MN and DU can't both be no1!

No1 depends on your point of view, my opinion is M20 should be top as it would save lives (and of course is local to me).

What there I no doubt I guess that these three are the top priorities and nothing else should get the go ahead before them

Jamie2k9 · 20-12-2013 9:08pm

Metro North won't happen between 2016 and 2020, DU will and its more important at the minute for the city.

M20 cost of 800 million surly is well reduced now with materials, labour and land costs all well below 2007-8 levels when planning. If funding isn't available for the whole route possibly certain areas may being constructed. Remember reading an article in 2012 about progressive upgrades to improve the road.

corktina · 20-12-2013 9:54pm

that would be a good idea, bypassing Buttevant at least would help

cgcsb · 20-12-2013 10:17pm

corktina wrote: »

Perhaps you'd like to explain that? No-one is going to die because we don't re-open this line, people will die if something isn't done to improve the N20

improvements can be made to the N20 in dangerous sections without constructing a billion euro motorway.

cgcsb · 20-12-2013 10:20pm

Vanquished wrote: »

A bafflingly illogical statement! It smacks of "well if I can't have my railway then you can't have your motorway!":o

Are you seriously suggesting that a western rail corridor mark two type project (where much of the alignment has been lost anyhow!) is a more worthy one than replacing one of the worst and most dangerous stretches of national primary route in the country?!

Again, it's about journey times between the cities. Rail needs to be faster than road to be competitive, and the railway company is state subsidised so it's in our interests to improve it's revenues. The safety issues can be addressed without motorway.

cgcsb · 20-12-2013 10:24pm

corktina wrote: »

motorways are a very safe form of transport. The opening of them is mostly responsible for the reduction in road deaths, although the RSA claim responsibilityfor this.

incorrect the majority of fatal accidents occus on minor roads, the new motorways have not changed this. Up until the late 90s the rules of the road simply weren't enforced, that's the problem.

cgcsb · 20-12-2013 10:29pm

MGWR wrote: »

And last I heard, the electrification on the Northern Line was supposed to end at Balbriggan instead of Drogheda.

afaik it'd be more expensive to construct a new turn around facility at Balbriggan than to electrify as far as Drogheda and get the benefits of DART services to Drogheda.

MGWR wrote: »

IE always seems to have "high hopes" of making it into the latter half of the 20th century; 125 mph (200 km/h) top speed on the rails as best practice was achieved by the 1970s. Replacing rolling stock too frequently simply to waste money will merely get the country back into the doldrums, especially since such spending would be coupled by other government waste.

IÉ had 1970's rolling stock up until 2009

murphaph · 20-12-2013 10:31pm

It's incorrect to say that DU won't bring or at least have the capacity to bring rail based travel to new passengers/areas. The massive increase in capacity that DU envisages would only make sense if the bus network was overhauled to take account of such new capacity into and out of central Dublin. People in Celbridge, Newcastle, Rathcoole, Lucan, Palmerstown, parts of Tallaght West should be much more likely taking a north/south feeder bus a couple of miles to a station in West Dublin and then from there continuing their journey right into the city centre by rail. Same goes for the Maynooth line as it receives a massive capacity increase.

This is how successful networks like Munich operate, the bus feeds the rail network which does the heavy lifting underground in the city centre. It's a perfectly symbiotic relationship: the bus can operate over uncongested wide suburban roads while the rail aspect is grade separated in the congested city centre.

MN is important, very important, but given the choice between the DU and MN I still believe after all these years that DU is the most important project and should take priority.

cgcsb · 20-12-2013 10:38pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Those 2+1 sections of Cork to Mallow, I view as being incredibly dangerous. The M20 needs to be prioritised.

However, Varadkar will go ahead with just about every Dublin vanity project under the moon before the M20 will be touched.

If Cork and Limerick voters have any sense next time out, they'll hold back on giving FG votes. Cork having the FF leader could be a FG wasteland next time out.

Oh right, :rolleyes:

cgcsb · 20-12-2013 10:51pm

corktina wrote: »

you can judge whether or not an improved transport link is needed by the number of passengers travelling that route by coach.
One 53 seater an hour for the most part.
Balance against that a few hundred cars plus umpteen trucks and vans and it is obvious that a second rail link is nowhere near as important as the M20 project.

you can hardly expect a motorway to be built to accommodate one bus, a few hundred cars and upteen trucks. A single lane road would be sufficient.

end of the road · 20-12-2013 11:19pm

cgcsb wrote: »

IÉ had 1970's rolling stock up until 2009

2007/8 actually, the mark 3s were from the 80s, other railways still have some stock from the 70s running, the UK has 1970s rolling stock still doing 125 MPH in mainline service on a dayly basis, the only problem with us however is that we left our newer 1970s stock to rot, the earlier mark 1 stuff was life expired though

corktina · 21-12-2013 12:00am

cgcsb wrote: »

you can hardly expect a motorway to be built to accommodate one bus, a few hundred cars and upteen trucks. A single lane road would be sufficient.

... an hour, in each direction....

corktina · 21-12-2013 12:10am

cgcsb wrote: »

improvements can be made to the N20 in dangerous sections without constructing a billion euro motorway.

It was €800 million I believe and will be less now I'm sure.

By all means improve the dangerous sections and let's bypass Mallow, Buttevant and Charleville whilst we are at it. There wont be too many kilometres left to so then! (won't happen in my lifetime)

Banjoxed · 21-12-2013 2:34am

corktina wrote: »

It was €800 million I believe and will be less now I'm sure.

By all means improve the dangerous sections and let's bypass Mallow, Buttevant and Charleville whilst we are at it. There wont be too many kilometres left to so then! (won't happen in my lifetime)

So your agenda is basically don't build railways but build motorways because railways rob roads of investment. An entirely logical conclusion from your posts on this thread alone. Perhaps you will point out where exactly DU will rob money from improvements for road professionals and other users? I can't recall that either/or situation ever being put up, in reality.

end of the road · 21-12-2013 3:30am

theirs room for both rail and road between our cities and the places that currently have railways, even a couple of the railways which closed under the rein of terror in the 50s 60s and 70s should never have been and i believe should still be reopened (navan and bray harcourt street) all though harcourt street as a terminus isn't an option so it could go underground and link into dart underground, it will have to be when the luas infrastructure needs replacing and some more development happens around the area.

corktina · 21-12-2013 10:07am

Banjoxed wrote: »

So your agenda is basically don't build railways but build motorways because railways rob roads of investment. An entirely logical conclusion from your posts on this thread alone. Perhaps you will point out where exactly DU will rob money from improvements for road professionals and other users? I can't recall that either/or situation ever being put up, in reality.

if you read back you'll see I advocated investing in the major rail routes and commuter, putting DU, MN and the M20 as my top three for investment. Your post is entirely in your head my friend. (Charleville to Patrickswell wouldn't be in my top 300!)

monument · 21-12-2013 4:02pm

bk wrote: »

Yes, DU will greatly improve the existing network, but it won't actually bring rail based transport to any new people. It will just mean those who already have rail based transport will get closer into the city center and potentially higher frequency of services *.

It will transform much of the poor / lower level / disjointed rail access into a more reliable, higher frequency, much more integrated and more useful network. Extra capacity and connections even in the areas served by current Dart will allow extra people to use the service.

The Dublin rail network post DU will hardly be comparable to the current disjointed mess.

The Dart and Luas networks would for passengers combine to become one large rail network.

bk wrote: »

MN on the other hand will almost completely serve parts of the city that have never had rail based transport.

DU will also bring new train stations to areas such as Christ Church, Inchicore, and in a meaningful way for urban services from the Docklands, Drumcondra, and Heuston. A new station at Phibsborough / Glasnevin is very likely post DU.

bk wrote: »

North Dublin is actually the most densely populated part of the city, actually more densely populated then the already well served south side of the city. And of course it brings a rail link to the airport and a rail link to Swords (the largest town in Ireland)

As above Drumcondra, Phibsborough, south Glasnevin, Docklands, Christ Church / Dublin 8, Heuston area, and Islandbridge all served by DU. DU would have a far higher penetration of Dublin's most densely populated areas and some of the most densely populated clusters.

It would also bring meaningful services to south and north western areas of the city -- ie Adamstown, Blanch, Ashtown, Clondalkin, Lucan etc.

bk wrote: »

and many other important landmarks like DCU, Croke Park, Mater Hospital, etc.

Dart would serve the following, all within 500m:

Croke Park
The O2
IFSC
The Convention Centre Dublin
Bord Gáis Energy Theatre
Christ Church
Irish Museum of Modern Art
National Museum of Ireland at Collins Barracks
Phoenix Park (to the main gate and just over 500m at the north end)
St Patrick's Cathedral

And better connections and higher frequency to places like Lansdowne Road and the RDS.

Nearly all of Metro North's interchanges are shared with DU, but DU would have extra ones at:

Heuston
Pearse
Docklands
Broombridge
(and a possible future interchange at Inchicore)

patrickbrophy18 · 21-12-2013 5:13pm

corktina wrote: »

MN and DU can't both be no1!

The thing is that both Metro North and DART Underground are designed to complement each other. Firstly, DART Underground will significantly reduce congestion at Connolly Station which has become a bottleneck for train services. It is also vital in enabling the operation of 2 DART lines:

Greystones/Bray - Maynooth/Pace: This will connect major intermediate locations such as Dun Laoghaire, Blackrock, Sydney Parade, Landsdowne Road, The City Center (Grand Canal Dock, Pearse Street, Tara Street and Connolly), Drumcondra, Broombridge, Phoenix Park, Castleknock (with it's close proximity to Blanchardstown) and Dunboyne. Other medium sized towns like Shankill, Dalkey, Sandycove, Monkstown, Booterstown, Ashtown, Coolmine, Clonsilla, Leixlip Confey and Leixlip Louisa Bridge will benefit from it as well.
Howth/Drogheda - Hazelhatch & Celbridge: This will serve the major towns of Balbriggan, Malahide, Howth, Portmarnock, Clongriffin, Howth Junction, Raheny, Clontarf, The City Center (Docklands, Pearse Street, St. Stephens Green, Christchurch, Heuston), Inchicore, Cherry Orchard & Parkwest and Adamstown. The more moderate suburbs or Gormanston, Skerries, Rush & Lusk, Donabate, Sutton, Kilbarrack, Harmonstown, Clondalkin and Kishoge.

The two DART lines will form an X-shape with Pearse Street Station being a major interchange between them. Some of the other new notable interchanges will be St. Stephens Green (where the second DART line will meet Metro North and the Green Luas Line), Drumcondra (where the first DART line will meet Metro North).

Metro North has a major business case unto itself. To begin with, it will connect with DART Line 2 and the Luas Green Line at it's terminus in St. Stephens Green and DART Line 1 at Drumcondra. It will connect with the Luas Red Line at O'Connell Street. It will serve Parnell Square which is a major shopping district and transportation hub. It will provide fast access to the Mater Hospital. Dublin City University is the next major stop and a strong contributor to the Metro North business case. Ballymun has one of the biggest home-wares stores in the country (IKEA) adding a hell of a lot more weight to the business case. Dublin Airport is an international hub and a business case all by itself and is one of the comparatively few airports in Europe without a rail link to it's corresponding city. The last major stop for Metro North is the large population center of Swords with upwards of 30,000 people, shopping centers and industrial parks.

To sum it up, DART Underground and Metro North are the most important pieces in the public transport jigsaw puzzle in relieving congestion in Dublin City. In the paragraphs above, I have hopefully explained why both projects are needed.

Based on the success of DART Underground and Metro North, the development of Metro West should then proceed. Metro West would be a major catalyst in relieving congestion on the M50. With important interchanges at Harristown, Blanchardstown, Porterstown, Liffey Valley, Fonthill, Clondalkin and Belgard, I can see it being a massive success. However, I think it should be extended beyond Tallaght to serve other major areas like Ballyboden, Dundrum, Sandyford, Cornelscourt and Dun Laoghaire. Effectively, this would behave like the M50 of rail systems.

corktina · 21-12-2013 6:19pm

I didn't say you couldn't have both, I said they can't both be No1

patrickbrophy18 · 21-12-2013 8:52pm

end of the road wrote: »

theirs room for both rail and road between our cities and the places that currently have railways, even a couple of the railways which closed under the rein of terror in the 50s 60s and 70s should never have been and i believe should still be reopened (navan and bray harcourt street) all though harcourt street as a terminus isn't an option so it could go underground and link into dart underground, it will have to be when the luas infrastructure needs replacing and some more development happens around the area.

Excellent point here. I think that, eventually when the funds permit, the Green Luas Line could be restored back to the heavy rail line it once was. The original plans where to link the old Harcourt Street Line with the Maynooth Line via Broadstone Station by means of an underground tunnel. Unfortunately, this never took off. Anyway, there would be a huge benefit to this if it were to be brought to fruition. This would allow for underground stations at St. Stephens Green, Temple Bar and Jervis Street before surfacing at Broadstone. From here, it would call at Broombridge, Ashtown, Navan Road Park Way (formerly Phoenix Park Station) and the remain stations to Maynooth or Pace. The Luas BXD Line is a good short-term solution to test the demand. But, ultimately, I would like to see all road level tram systems evolving into fast underground DART systems. Between James' and The Point, the Luas Red Line behaves a lot like a glorified bus system with stops in quick succession. It's open nature also makes it too accessible and prone to abuse by fare evaders and other undesirable crowds.

D.L.R. · 21-12-2013 10:33pm

bk wrote: »

Yes, I'd expect either DU or MN.

LUAS BXD was the stop gap infrastructure project to do during the recession.

Now that we are slowly starting to come out of the recession, there are only a few major infrastructure projects on the plate, DU, MN and maybe the M20

I can't really think of any others. Anybody else?

Dublin Outer Orbital Motorway :rolleyes:
Dublin Eastern Bypass :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

cgcsb · 22-12-2013 8:55am

corktina wrote: »

... an hour, in each direction....

what?

leshamry · 15-01-2014 9:44am

Don't expect any architecture...

Washington DC Metro Awarded AIA 25 Year Award

http://www.archdaily.com/466551/washington-dc-metro-awarded-aia-25-year-award/

Leo says Dart Underground likely to part of next investment proposals

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