Should we scrap the LC in favour of the American credits system?

THEZAPPA · 03-07-2014 12:24am #1

I think we should. I always find their are people who just aren't as good at cramming for exams and spitting it out as others. Yet these people are very smart.

...your thoughts?

RFOLEY1990 · 03-07-2014 12:25am

Continuous Assessment gets my vote. your future hanging on one off exams is ludicrous for me

Tail Docker · 03-07-2014 12:26am

We have a bad history with credit..

AnonoBoy · 03-07-2014 12:29am

Continuous Assessment Weather doesn't have the same ring to it.

I vote we leave it as is.

c_man · 03-07-2014 12:30am

Should we scrap the LC in favour of the American credits system?

Only if we also adopt their Second Amendment. Pew Pew!

Manach · 03-07-2014 12:30am

My reading of the US education system - it is very much dominated both by teaching unions and educational theorists. The former would see continuous assessment as a way to keep their work status in place whilst the latter as a means to try out their behaviour models. At least with the one exam serious, there is no-need to keep on the right side of the these - there is an element of self-responsbility, not something the former education minister was keen on.

Mr. Incognito · 03-07-2014 12:31am

America has one of the worst education systems of any developed country and you want go copy them???

Do you have an american "education"

THEZAPPA · 03-07-2014 1:00am

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

America has one of the worst education systems of any developed country and you want go copy them???

Do you have an american "education"

What facts are based on that?

No born and raised in Ireland with an Irish education.

Aceandstuff · 03-07-2014 1:06am

I only did the LC a few years ago, it's not as much hassle for some as keeping up a certain standard for years on end. Continuous assesment would have been a disaster for someone like me, who was geting sick every few weeks and having serious family problems. IMO, it would only make success harder for those with difficult circumstances.

entropi · 03-07-2014 1:07am

It needs a big overhaul, agreed. CA would make things better, imho. You learn by doing, rather than a rote learning system (which is bull tbh...my own course requires lots of rote learning) and have less of a massive workload on you. There are some essential life skills missing from a curriculum at present though: interview technique, C.V. preparation, how to do some basic first aid etc, so it would be nice to see something of this ilk included if changes ever did come along.

Seaneh · 03-07-2014 1:10am

THEZAPPA wrote: »

What facts are based on that?

Do you have any idea how much the spend on education and how low there level of completion of 2nd level is?

Or how low their percentage of 3rd level graduates is?

Continuous assessment is of course a good idea, but modelling anything on the US education system is a ****ing terrible idea.

Iwasfrozen · 03-07-2014 1:41am

Seaneh wrote: »

Do you have any idea how much the spend on education and how low there level of completion of 2nd level is?

Or how low their percentage of 3rd level graduates is?

Continuous assessment is of course a good idea, but modelling anything on the US education system is a ****ing terrible idea.

How much of that is due to the cost of their colleges though rather than continuous assessment?

looking_around · 03-07-2014 1:44am

Aceandstuff wrote: »

I only did the LC a few years ago, it's not as much hassle for some as keeping up a certain standard for years on end. Continuous assesment would have been a disaster for someone like me, who was geting sick every few weeks and having serious family problems. IMO, it would only make success harder for those with difficult circumstances.

As someone who's had difficult circumstances.

I would have preferred to not have all my hopes on one exam. I think having 4 exams a year, where the average of those for exams, amkes your total at the end of the year, a lot less worrisome. As if I do badly on one, I know have the other 3 to lean on.

But then, I was someone who aimed for A's all through out the school years. The LC was just too much stress because it was all on this exam, do badly, be too tired one day, and not think straight..and you've ****ed up your LC.
It's terrible for stress levels, continuous assessment, is easier to manage.

Taco Chips · 03-07-2014 3:06am

The LC is overblown as to how difficult it is. Sure its an intense exam but these are 17/18 year olds sitting it, they have to be exposed to stress and hard work at some stage. What should be emphasised is how to respond in a positive manner and channel the pressure into productive study and learning. Like it or not but having a strong memory and ability to remember facts is an important basis for intelligence.

There is a diverse range of subjects on offer for students of all different skillets that they can sit exams in and maximise their points. Someone who is mathematically minded can take higher level maths, physics and applied maths and play to their strengths. Similarly someone who is more artistic can do art, design & communication graphics, technology etc... Sure English, Irish and Maths are mandatory but thats a good thing. Every person should have a fundamental level of numeracy, ability to critically write/communicate and appreciate some Irish culture.

I think in fact that the Leaving Cert and the pure meritocracy of the points system is one of the best state implemented structures we have. It's fair to every single person who completes the exams. The points you score will be directly proportional to the amount of hard work you put in. Whats so bad about that?

SureYWouldntYa · 03-07-2014 3:52am

Since I had to go through the horrors of the LC, i want every generation after me to have to go through it.

Feck having a fair system, if i have to do it so does everyone else

EyeSight · 03-07-2014 4:04am

I like that the UK system provisionally accepts you before your exams. So they basically say: "You need an A in a science subject, a C in Maths and a B in English". That way you know what you need to do.

Not this crap about, last year it was 450 points but that may change. Also I can do badly in the science subjects, still do well in English, French etc. and get into a science course still.

Aceandstuff · 03-07-2014 5:27am

Taco Chips wrote: »

There is a diverse range of subjects on offer for students of all different skillets that they can sit exams in and maximise their points. Someone who is mathematically minded can take higher level maths, physics and applied maths and play to their strengths. Similarly someone who is more artistic can do art, design & communication graphics, technology etc... Sure English, Irish and Maths are mandatory but thats a good thing. Every person should have a fundamental level of numeracy, ability to critically write/communicate and appreciate some Irish culture.

In a lot of schools, this isn't the case. I was unable to do physics or any tech graph subjects, which I excelled in, at my school. The subjects were not available to any of us. Everyone had a very limited range to choose from, and most could not afford to get grinds outside of school.

As for results being directly proportional to the work put in, it really has a lot to do with luck. I worked very hard before my first LC and ended up so sick during the exams that I can't remember doing some of them.

Adamantium · 03-07-2014 8:17am

SureYWouldntYa wrote: »

Since I had to go through the horrors of the LC

Oh give over would ya! The "horrors", chrisssstt.... The LC is nothing compared to the day to day tests of being an adult, people perform better under the kiln of stress. CA? Everyday we went to school was a test of it self, there was no reason you couldn't learn independently if you wanted to and arguably learning as much as you want to learn on your own timescale as I and many others did, is far better than the constant gruel of trying to keep uninterested teenagers.

Childhood seems to stop younger and younger now. There is something to be said for studying subjects and doing stuff you don't want to, because you'll come against that all the time in adulthood. Education at that age (especially free) should be about more than preparing people to be worker drones

School can be oppressive enough socially without having the wolf at the door constantly, I'd much rather two two short, sharp large exams and be told "Here, study in your own good time, and take the breaks when you feel you need to" Now that's self directed learning and it tests personal standards and character, intiative far more than any CA. You get told what to do and they take it on good faith that you'll do the work. Trust.

It's only preparing them for college exams which are far more testing and contain all the elements in the previous paragraph.

I have to laugh at social skills being on the curriculum, you're in a large body of people interacting with hundreds of people year round. You're already sitting the test. Module in how to breathe properly?

Far more helpful would be allowing people to pick hard subjects without sacrificing something equally as useful to them.

I think the LC is fair because your strong subjects balance out your weak ones, it's an indicator of how you tried across the board and the points. It comes up with an average.

Gannicus · 03-07-2014 8:17am

I think we should mix both the one exam and do continuous assessment. When I went to secondary school we had mid-terms around Halloween, X-mas exams and then more mid-terms around Easter/Paddy's day then Summer exams (LC and JC classes obviously had different exams those summers).

Why not make these exams that are taken during the school year account for say 30%-40% and then LC exam account for the rest. It's a bit like continuous assessment but there is still a final exam to be taken. That way it will even out the pressure for the entire year instead of the whole end of year freak out and cram session that goes on.

jimgoose · 03-07-2014 8:27am

I don't think continuous assessment works well in real-life as younglads end up being spoon-fed too much, a bit like the effect of "semesterisation" on third-level. In general I wouldn't be a fan of importing elements such as this from the US education system. I think the basic structure of the Leaving Cert is probably sound, but it needs reform to make it less "ingest-and-regurgitate". One thing they do right in America is Industrial Arts, informally known as Shop Class. These are the rough equivalent of the likes of woodwork and metalwork in the vocational schools ("Techs") here, but of course the Americans seems to be in the process of phasing those out.

I would have liked to have been the brooding, slightly dangerous loner with an earring, Brylcreemed hair and a packet of Marlboro tucked into the sleeve of my T-shirt, picking up cheerleaders in my Camaro after Auto-Shop to go cruisin', maaan. :cool:

Taco Chips · 03-07-2014 3:03pm

Aceandstuff wrote: »

In a lot of schools, this isn't the case. I was unable to do physics or any tech graph subjects, which I excelled in, at my school. The subjects were not available to any of us. Everyone had a very limited range to choose from, and most could not afford to get grinds outside of school.

As for results being directly proportional to the work put in, it really has a lot to do with luck. I worked very hard before my first LC and ended up so sick during the exams that I can't remember doing some of them.

Thats where a bit of initiative comes in. I had a similar issue when i was doing the LC in that the classes in school for App Maths and Economics were full, so I taught myself the subjects. Got the textbooks, worked through the chapters on my own time after school. Ended up getting A2s in both of them. A bit of thought goes a long way. Any LC subject can be self taught with some application.

BeerWolf · 03-07-2014 3:15pm

Ain't the system in America very prone to corruption, where you can simply have "Daddy" pay his kids through college?

Killer Wench · 03-07-2014 3:15pm

Manach wrote: »

My reading of the US education system - it is very much dominated both by teaching unions and educational theorists.

Incorrect.

Our educational system is dominated by policy administered by the party in charge. In changes whenever the President changes. There is no consistent roadmap.

Calvin · 03-07-2014 3:21pm

I don't know about adopting the American credits system, but I do agree that our education system needs a complete overhaul.

Having just completed the LC this year, it isn't what I thought it would be, meaning I was relaxed about it. Most things that came up were predicted since the start of the year and the only subject that was challenging and required brain power was maths (higher level).

I do believe we need a more varied choice of subjects. Being the 21st century, technology is rapidly growing and a part of our everyday lives. Some sort of subject that accommodates those that are interested in technology, such as computer programming/coding, would be nice to see as there is certainly a niche in the market for those that have good computer skills and it is definitely a viable career choice for many.

TimeToShine · 03-07-2014 4:04pm

I'd gladly go back and do the LC again. It's blown out of proportion. I've had harder college exam periods and more stressful work deadlines than the leaving cert.

CA wouldn't work in this country - the variety of teaching standards is just far too wild for it to be fair.

Adamantium · 03-07-2014 4:04pm

SureYWouldntYa wrote: »

Feck having a fair system, if i have to do it so does everyone else

Except it is just that, fair. As everybody else has to go through that.

endacl · 03-07-2014 4:06pm

THEZAPPA wrote: »

What facts are based on that?
.

Hmmmmmm.......

SureYWouldntYa · 03-07-2014 4:14pm

Adamantium wrote: »

Except it is just that, fair. As everybody else has to go through that.

its not fair having every chance of you going to college being pushed into 2 weeks in June

THEZAPPA · 03-07-2014 4:14pm

I didn't mean bring in the complete American credits system but to have some sort of change to have what we learn throughout the year go towards the end of year result.

I have friends who got 600 points in the LC because they were good at knowing what would come up and spit it out come exam time. They didn't do well in college with CA's and most dropped out and are on the dole. Whereas I got a good degree and now work for the big guys and moved up quickly (I got an average amount in my LC)

Another issue, I was not allowed to do any of the choose your own subjects I wanted and knew I'd be good at as the class was small and therefore the school decided their was no point in continuing the subject with two people in the class. I simply couldn't afford grinds either so they put me in the only class left which was business...needless to say i'm not good at business.

Another problem is your points and what classes you take go towards certain college course minimum requirements. I couldn't apply for the course I wanted because I didn't have the one of the classes needed in my LC. I also missed out on first choose due to getting 5 points lower in the business exam...I got that because I had to do that class and I wasn't good at it. Also a lot of students do not know what they want to do when its time to choose what subjects you would like to do. Only realizing when they fill out their CAO that they don't have a minimum requirement for a course they want because they didn't do that subject.

Anyways it all worked out in the end for me but their are holes to the system. It doesn't work for everyone.

mariaalice · 03-07-2014 4:32pm

A mix is probably best both continuous assessment and an exam, however there is no way around hard work, and its more about sitckablity that ability, you could be very bright but not be able to stick at and work at the subjects you are studying.

In other words its about being able to come home and study for a couple of hours consistently while putting aside the Xbox or any other distractions and to keep doing that over and over again. At the end of the day it is about working at it and there is no escaping from that.

RFOLEY1990 · 03-07-2014 4:35pm

Aceandstuff wrote: »

I only did the LC a few years ago, it's not as much hassle for some as keeping up a certain standard for years on end. Continuous assesment would have been a disaster for someone like me, who was geting sick every few weeks and having serious family problems. IMO, it would only make success harder for those with difficult circumstances.

surely CA would be better for people with difficult circumstances? that's the whole point, one exam doesn't determine your result.

assuming these difficult circumstances occur in June, then you're bunched.

if they happened in say, November and you missed one assignment over it you could still recover.

I realise I'm generalising here as to people's circumstances.

Should we scrap the LC in favour of the American credits system?

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