Planning & Tall Buildings in Dublin

Reuben1210 · 03-04-2015 4:05pm

Aard wrote: »

Law of diminishing returns. It's bloody expensive to build a 20th floor compared to a 10th floor. The rents they'd have to charge in order to make a 20th floor viable would have to be very high. Obviously the developer isn't willing to bet on whether somebody is willing to pay such astronomical rents.

ok well this is true that every extra floor is marginally more expensive, but it's not as bad as you are making out, given the fact that the possible few high rise areas that Dublin might have in future are prime CBD areas, where rents are naturally going to keep going up now, given the recovery and in particular, the huge growth in our financial sector. Look at how over the last 20 years, London has seriously gone high rise - directly linked to demand/rents. It's quite obvious this is going to happen here from now on in terms of rents, except if there is another crash.

The alternative if you have such draconian limits on height across the city, is that we are going to keep sprawling out like an American city, and somewhere like Sandyford will become the high rise centre, as was already beginning to happen just before the crash. In this situation, the extra costs in lost time and transport costs as a whole will make it very expensive anyway, and a hell of a lot less convenient for workers and businesses.

Reuben1210 · 03-04-2015 4:10pm

Aard wrote: »

1. An Taisce do not object to every development in the state. I don't know where you get that idea.

2. SDZs do not cut ABP out. ABP approve SDZs. They're actually an intrinsic part of SDZs.

Well if you look back at many big schemes across the country, from high rise plans in Dublin, Cork or Galway, to wind farm projects, to road projects, an taisce has often got right in the middle of it. Sometimes it is obviously warranted, but quite often, it just seems like they don't want any modernisation of the country.

What i meant with the SDZ's was that once approved, the development of the zone is up to DCC, within the outline parameters agreed with the board for each zone.

Panda_Turtle · 08-04-2015 7:53am

36 or so storey 120m watchtower began construction in 2008 down at the point village behind the 3arena, before the money ran out and they pulled the plug on it after building the basement.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=706176

Would the planning permission for this have gone?

L1011 · 08-04-2015 8:44am

Its foundations are there so it's commenced in planning law which gives longer to finish.

MJohnston · 08-04-2015 12:54pm

Somewhat off-topic, but is there any kind of thread on boards that discusses major Dublin city building projects, or should we just use this one?

sleepyman · 08-04-2015 4:01pm

Yeah I was wondering were they in the Dublin city forum.The Central Bank one was there.
Does anyone know have the Hannover Quay & Sir John Rogerson Quay developments been given the go ahead?I think planning permission was submitted in Dec 2014 but can't find where it's at

Peregrine · 08-04-2015 4:07pm

sleepyman wrote: »

Yeah I was wondering were they in the Dublin city forum.The Central Bank one was there.
Does anyone know have the Hannover Quay & Sir John Rogerson Quay developments been given the go ahead?I think planning permission was submitted in Dec 2014 but can't find where it's at

This site on SJR Quay got planning permission 2 weeks ago. See details here.

The same people also applied for planning permission for a very similar development here on Hanover Quay but it's still in the process. See details here. They had asked for more info a few weeks ago.

Here's a summary of the two developments:

There's a related proposal on Hanover Quay. Same client, same architect, same application date.

This is 76 SJR Quay which got planning permission:

Riverside office element:

Residential element facing the Chocolate Park site:

(One of the conditions was to lighten up this facade)

Overall, ~9,500sq m of office space, 9 1 bed, 34 2 bed and 15 3 bed apartments (net 58) and 200sq m ground floor retail.

The Hanover Quay site twice as big but has a shorter height limit. The council voiced concerns and requested additional information so it's still in the planning process. If the concerns are ironed out, it could be the next building to come through the SDZ planning process.

Hanover Quay side view:

Horse Fair Road:

It's split up into two blocks. The western building will consist of almost 18,000sq m of office space while the eastern building will have 12 1 bed, 62 2 bed and 26 3 bed apartments and 665sq m of ground floor retail.

Aard · 08-04-2015 4:56pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Somewhat off-topic, but is there any kind of thread on boards that discusses major Dublin city building projects, or should we just use this one?

Feel free to continue posting here about tall building projects. If the thread gets a bit unwieldy I'll move posts to a dedicated thread.

MJohnston · 08-04-2015 5:22pm

Aard wrote: »

Feel free to continue posting here about tall building projects. If the thread gets a bit unwieldy I'll move posts to a dedicated thread.

Now you're going to have to define "tall"

Idbatterim · 08-04-2015 5:29pm

I see these stupidly low limits as creating multiple problems, higher rents, longer commutes, more urban sprawl, eroding our competitiveness (both on rent and commercial rents, back to square one)... The local authority now with the property tax, water charge, broadcasting fee etc, benefit from higher density, is it time for them to maybe tax the developer less the more dense the development etc?

when you look at that photo and how great that waterfront area could have looked, as opposed to how crap it does look, it is depressing! Maybe their should have been a competition like the u2 tower, to develop the entire docklands area...

crushproof · 09-04-2015 1:48pm

Cheers for the photos Nim.

Once again suburban business park style development in the heart of a resurgent European capital. Can't believe the council "voiced concerns" about the height of one of the developments...did it break the 6 story barrier?!
It's such a joke and it makes a parody of sustainable urban development. Once this land is used that's it, there's not much more free ready to go sites within the city core.

On a side note it would be interesting to know the car > household ratio in that area, I'd imagine it could be a wake up call to city planners.

Idbatterim · 09-04-2015 1:59pm

I just read about one of the sites in the docklands having a 5 storey limit!

meanwhile in Terenure...

cgcsb · 09-04-2015 2:03pm

yeah the old steam packet site. 5 storey limit on a south quays site facing the river, i.e. it's shadow is cast on the river, where nobody lives, still a ridiculous 5 storey height limit.

Peregrine · 09-04-2015 2:03pm

I don't think the concerns were about height. I didn't read it at the time and it's gone now. They must have resumbitted the application or something.

Edit:

Re: the 5 storey limit

Everything in blue is 5 storey commercial/7storey residential and pink i.e. half of the SDZ is 6 commercial/7 residential.

astrofool · 09-04-2015 2:05pm

crushproof wrote: »

Cheers for the photos Nim.

Once again suburban business park style development in the heart of a resurgent European capital. Can't believe the council "voiced concerns" about the height of one of the developments...did it break the 6 story barrier?!
It's such a joke and it makes a parody of sustainable urban development. Once this land is used that's it, there's not much more free ready to go sites within the city core.

On a side note it would be interesting to know the car > household ratio in that area, I'd imagine it could be a wake up call to city planners.

They seem to pretend the car doesn't exist and everything is in walking distance, or situated on our disconnected transit lines, certainly that eejit Owen Keegan does everything he can to make accessing amenities by car as awkward as possible.

BoJack Horseman · 09-04-2015 2:08pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

I just read about one of the sites in the docklands having a 5 storey limit!

meanwhile in Terenure...

Meanwhile in leafy leopardstown...

Curious& random building heights around the city.

Idbatterim · 10-04-2015 12:40pm

in relation to the steam packet site, I read on independent.ie that it is likely to sell for 30 million and there is also the possibility of it having 3 set back stories, can the purchaser of the site not apply for new pp?

Schadenfreudia · 12-04-2015 2:41pm

Reuben1210 wrote: »

The alternative if you have such draconian limits on height across the city, is that we are going to keep sprawling out like an American city, and somewhere like Sandyford will become the high rise centre, as was already beginning to happen just before the crash. In this situation, the extra costs in lost time and transport costs as a whole will make it very expensive anyway, and a hell of a lot less convenient for workers and businesses.

Maybe that's not so bad...Sandyford has better road, rail and public transport connections than many parts of the city.

Banning/curtailing cars while providing no alternative efficient public transport is a recipe for stagnation.

Suburban centres will continue to grow if the authorities don't get serious about a modern European standard of transport - that is DU, MN and
several new Luas lines.

They need to be built quickly and without decades of debate, discussion, waffle - in short anything except action.

Schadenfreudia · 12-04-2015 2:46pm

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Curious& random building heights around the city.

Which makes Dublin like virtually every other city in Europe!

What is curious about Dublin is the absence of any high rise buildings anywhere near the centre.

monument · 12-04-2015 2:52pm

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Which makes Dublin like virtually every other city in Europe!

What is curious about Dublin is the absence of any high rise buildings anywhere near the centre.

Is that not just like Amsterdam and Copenhagen?

Aard · 12-04-2015 4:14pm

Amsterdam has a very interesting approach to high-rise. Kinda like Paris come to think of it. The "Zuidas" area is where all the high-rise is. It's on the main ring-road motorway, and also on a major rail route to Schiphol. So transport connections are second to none, and it also preserves the character of the old city centre. This also means less restriction to high-rise form than if tall buildings had been shoe-horned into the historic city centre environment.

An analogous concept for Dublin might be around the Fonthill Road, especially if Dart Underground and Metro West are built and especially now that Newlands X is upgraded. That way there'd be frequent rapid transit to the retail core, Docklands, and the Airport. Also access from Galway, Limerick, and Cork would be the best in the country.

There is a plan for the area known as Clonburris. Frankly I think we could do a Zuidas/Défense on it and go high-rise out there. Dublin is going to expand to the west. The north is sterilised due to the Airport, the east is sea, and the south is mountain. Planned extension to the urban area to the west is necessary. A planned high-rise zone near excellent transport connections could form the centrepiece of that extension. The advantage too would be that impact on landscape would be minimal. It'd basically be a Sandyford Mark II but more centrally located. The only negatives I can think of would be the huge pressure put on the M50 because of it.

hfallada · 12-04-2015 6:14pm

Aard wrote: »

Amsterdam has a very interesting approach to high-rise. Kinda like Paris come to think of it. The "Zuidas" area is where all the high-rise is. It's on the main ring-road motorway, and also on a major rail route to Schiphol. So transport connections are second to none, and it also preserves the character of the old city centre. This also means less restriction to high-rise form than if tall buildings had been shoe-horned into the historic city centre environment.

An analogous concept for Dublin might be around the Fonthill Road, especially if Dart Underground and Metro West are built and especially now that Newlands X is upgraded. That way there'd be frequent rapid transit to the retail core, Docklands, and the Airport. Also access from Galway, Limerick, and Cork would be the best in the country.

There is a plan for the area known as Clonburris. Frankly I think we could do a Zuidas/Défense on it and go high-rise out there. Dublin is going to expand to the west. The north is sterilised due to the Airport, the east is sea, and the south is mountain. Planned extension to the urban area to the west is necessary. A planned high-rise zone near excellent transport connections could form the centrepiece of that extension. The advantage too would be that impact on landscape would be minimal. It'd basically be a Sandyford Mark II but more centrally located. The only negatives I can think of would be the huge pressure put on the M50 because of it.

Dublin Industrial Estate near Glasnevin/Finglas is always highlighted as being prime for Housing Development. The New Luasline to Grangegorman and the Maynooth rail ine are basically at. Its extremely close to the city and a very pleasant place to live considering its basically surrounded by mature parks. The new Luas line can connect it to TCD and it will beside Grangegorman, so it could deal with the massive shortage of student accommodation. It also really close for professionals working in town.

There is no logically reason to have an industrial estate basically beside the city, when it could be moved closer to the M50. Plus most of the units are glorified stores. There is basically no manufacturing in it. There is no need for the city to go West so soon, when so much of the Northside is underdeveloped.

Aard · 12-04-2015 7:17pm

Revelopment of Dublin Industrial Estate would make eminent sense. It is a different kettle of fish to a "Zuidas/Défense for Dublin" though, which was the tangent I was taking.

And you're absolutely right that heavy/light industry is increasingly being priced out of central locations. Look at Sandyford for a highly advanced example of that. Even the industrial estate in Coolock beside the Malahide Road is continuously getting applications for non-industrial uses, like supermarkets and the like.

The advantage to greenfield over brownfield is reduced/zero contamination and easier/cheaper to build infrastructure from scratch. With Dart Underground, Fonthill Road/ Clonburris would have the best catchment area in the country for a large greenfield site adjacent to an urban area. With DU its journey time to Dublin City Centre and Docklands would be excellent. Development of the Dublin urban area towards the west is inevitable, and I merely suggest we plan for that eventuality rather than waiting for it to happen and then trying to play catch up after the fact.

Schadenfreudia · 12-04-2015 7:27pm

monument wrote: »

Is that not just like Amsterdam and Copenhagen?

The centre yes, but these are exceptions. My point point was really in response to the idea that there was something odd about 6 storey apartment blocks in suburbs and a 16 storey block at a complex built over a Luas stop.

Suburbs of every city of any size I've ever seen contain things like that - a six storey block of flats should be no more remarkable in any urban location than a two storey semi-d if we are to have any prospect of "densification" - and building a 16 storey block on a rail node is hardly remarkable?

There is no reason why they shouldn't allow 20 storey plus buildings in the central area of the Sandyford Industrial Estate, except the bizarre anti-high-rise mentality that plagues the city.

The chattering classes don't want high-rise in the centre (and I tend to agree with that so long has the centre doesn't include places like Docklands and out past Heuston)- but they also don't want sprawl and they also don't want new suburban towns such as Sandyford or Dundrum drawing people and economic activity away from the old centres like D1 and D2 or DL.

And they also want to ban/restrict motor travel in the old centres! It simply doesn't add up to any coherent plan - so "no plan" takes over.

We can see the result of this "thinking" in DL town centre.

As for Sandyford being more "remote" than the Northern suburbs - I guess that depends on where you are looking from!

Aard · 12-04-2015 7:36pm

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

There is no reason why they shouldn't allow 20 storey plus buildings in the central area of the Sandyford Industrial Estate, except the bizarre anti-high-rise mentality that plagues the city.

The primary reason against allowing significant office space development in Sandyford is to avoid significant decentralisation of employment away from central Dublin.

Peregrine · 12-04-2015 7:44pm

There's nothing wrong with high rise in Sandyford. It makes perfect sense.

But the docklands is a wasted opportunity.

Schadenfreudia · 12-04-2015 8:03pm

I've put two gogle maps on two screens in front of me, both at the same scale - one of Dublin and the other Amsterdam.

A couple of facts jump out:

1) The old city centre, the Port area, Schiphol Airport, the Zuidas area and a whole motorway network - including a fully completed orbital motorway - are all contained in an area that easily fits inside the M50 C-ring.

2) Their "M50" superimposed on Dublin would go clockwise from Glasnevin to Clontarf - under the river/bay roughly where the Pigeon House is - come ashore near Merrion Gates, through Clonskeagh, Terenure, Crumlin, Phoenix Park and Cabra before reaching Glasnevin again.

That's the sort of motorway infrastructure that facilitates those admired city centres in many European cities that are so often cited as models Dublin should emulate.

So let's get on with building the Inner Motorway and a web of other motorways connecting it to the M50!

The High Rise Zones would start at the canals, we can have our Zuidas in Portobello.

Then we can have a European City right here

Schadenfreudia · 12-04-2015 8:07pm

Aard wrote: »

The primary reason against allowing significant office space development in Sandyford is to avoid significant decentralisation of employment away from central Dublin.

Indeed, but as I pointed out there is no modern transport infrastructure in central Dublin - containing Sandyford won't solve that problem - whereas trying to contain the suburbs without putting a proper metro in the centre linked to all the suburbs is a recipe for economic stagnation.

We avoid that fate only by failing to contain the suburbs!

hfallada · 12-04-2015 9:49pm

Aard wrote: »

Revelopment of Dublin Industrial Estate would make eminent sense. It is a different kettle of fish to a "Zuidas/Défense for Dublin" though, which was the tangent I was taking.

And you're absolutely right that heavy/light industry is increasingly being priced out of central locations. Look at Sandyford for a highly advanced example of that. Even the industrial estate in Coolock beside the Malahide Road is continuously getting applications for non-industrial uses, like supermarkets and the like.

The advantage to greenfield over brownfield is reduced/zero contamination and easier/cheaper to build infrastructure from scratch. With Dart Underground, Fonthill Road/ Clonburris would have the best catchment area in the country for a large greenfield site adjacent to an urban area. With DU its journey time to Dublin City Centre and Docklands would be excellent. Development of the Dublin urban area towards the west is inevitable, and I merely suggest we plan for that eventuality rather than waiting for it to happen and then trying to play catch up after the fact.

In the US, some cities change the zoning of some areas and you need permission to keep the use of your property if it doesnt match the zoning. Meaning it possible to change an entire from industrial to residential extremely quickly.

Eventually Dublin will move West. But with proper management we probably can delay it for years. Looks at NYC. There was huge parts of Brooklyn beside Manhattan, as in just across of the Hudson, that were empty warehouses/factories. Within the space of 10 years, these areas have gone from pretty ghetto areas with high crime to luxury high rises with rents higher than most of Manhattan. There is no reason with the proper planning and no high restrictions, that parts of the northside cant be like Willamsburg. Houses shouldnt be built within redeveloped areas of the M50. Ideally everything should be like the German way of housing within cities, which is 8 storey apartment blocks centred around a tram/u-bahn station.

Aard · 12-04-2015 10:07pm

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Indeed, but as I pointed out there is no modern transport infrastructure in central Dublin - containing Sandyford won't solve that problem - whereas trying to contain the suburbs without putting a proper metro in the centre linked to all the suburbs is a recipe for economic stagnation.

We avoid that fate only by failing to contain the suburbs!

No modern transport infrastructure in central Dublin?! Central Dublin is the best connected place on the island!

Planning & Tall Buildings in Dublin

Comments